41 réponses à ce sujet

[PinkoJim99]

I guess I forgot from my first playthough a years or so ago.  After slogging through 45 minutes of combat at the Landsmeet and finally getting Loghainn on the ropes with dead bodies everywhere, I'm supposed to believe that just because the old Chantry hag says to stop because "THERE WILL BE NO BLOODSHED"  (what a sense of timing), Earl Eamon and his gang just roll over and don't get to finish the job.  The bottom line is that all that effort was a complete waste of my time because I was almost out of med packs at that point and we know how that ends up when Allister or his champion have to beat Loghainn again.  Stupid, stupid, stupid.   I'll go buy supplies to make anouther half-dozen medpacks (Allister was only that short of beating Loghainn) and repeat the process with a different ending.

[Blazomancer]

Hahaha, yes and then dropping to almost zero in hit points , loghain is again fit like an ogre to fight the duel. By the way, why do you need to use health pots in that fight at all? You just have to attack loghain to end the fight soon. Otherwise if you are in for XP farming, you can just run all around killing Loghain's soldiers as your teammates and your allies keep Loghain busy.

[JasonPogo]

What I find dumb is they send you on this whole quest about useing the Elves as slaves to use againset Loghain in the Landsmeet. BUT if you want to win the landsmeet you have to not bring it up since noone there cares....

[Blazomancer]

Haha yes, and no matter how many votes you get, you will still lose if you don't choose the correct arguments. Retarded landsmeet.

[Ferretinabun]

OP - True, it is a bit dumb. Essentially it's a get-out clause for those who failed to win over the Landsmeet diplomatically.

JasonPogo - ??? I always mention the elf slave-ring. It doesn't stop me winning the LM. Bann Sighard always seems pretty outraged at the suggestion of slavery.

[BevH]

I always mention the elves, too and I always win as well. There's only 1 noble that I've never been able to win over, but even at that, the worst I've ever won by has been 5 votes to 2.

[Blazomancer]

Ferretinabun wrote...

OP - True, it is a bit dumb. Essentially it's a get-out clause for those who failed to win over the Landsmeet diplomatically.

JasonPogo - ??? I always mention the elf slave-ring. It doesn't stop me winning the LM. Bann Sighard always seems pretty outraged at the suggestion of slavery.

Exactly, the elf slave ring can be mentioned. The most points come from the approval of revered mother (or whatever that old chantry lady is) regarding stopping Templar's from doing their job, and of course, Anora the most important ally. But without Anora's support, mentioning about the elf slave-ring won't do; one have to mention about the blight, then the torturing scandal, then poisoning arl eamon through a blood mage. JasonPogo is most probably mentioning about that particular permutation of arguments. One stupid old noble will always support Loghain no matter what.

Modifié par Blazomancer, 26 juillet 2012 - 02:46 .

[tklivory]

Yeah, Coerlic always supports Loghain, but then, he's also the only noble who still speaks positively of Rendon Howe after you kill him, which shows the nature of *his* character. And it is possible to lose the Landsmeet even with Anora's support if you don't mention the items linked with the Bannorn (Blight for Wulfram, the Rescued Noble, Eamon's poisoning, Elfstanna's brother) and concentrate mostly on Cailan's death and the elf slaves.

Sad but true: even in the game mechanics driven Landsmeet, if you care about those who are not in the Landsmeet itself, you'll likely lose and, without Anora, definitely *will* lose.

And don't forget Vaughan, for those who free him. He's an extra point in support, and another way to win the Landsmeet without Anora's support, if you decided to be honest with her rather than manipulate her.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Blazomancer wrote...

Ferretinabun wrote...

OP - True, it is a bit dumb. Essentially it's a get-out clause for those who failed to win over the Landsmeet diplomatically.

JasonPogo - ??? I always mention the elf slave-ring. It doesn't stop me winning the LM. Bann Sighard always seems pretty outraged at the suggestion of slavery.

Exactly, the elf slave ring can be mentioned. The most points come from the approval of revered mother (or whatever that old chantry lady is) regarding stopping Templar's from doing their job, and of course, Anora the most important ally. But without Anora's support, mentioning about the elf slave-ring won't do; one have to mention about the blight, then the torturing scandal, then poisoning arl eamon through a blood mage. JasonPogo is most probably mentioning about that particular permutation of arguments. One stupid old noble will always support Loghain no matter what.

I'm pretty sure my Dalish mentioned the slavery, got screwed by Anora, and still won the vote. Brb, loading my save to check.

Edit: Never mind, apparently I was thinking of the torturing scandal. I'm sure I won that vote despite Anora, but apparently not by mentioning slavery. Btw, just how is it that I lost the vote despite having everyone except Ceorlic and that guy at ground level vote for me? (Not Vaughn, pretty sure I killed him in that playthrough.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 27 juillet 2012 - 04:38 .

[TEWR]

JasonPogo wrote...

What I find dumb is they send you on this whole quest about useing the Elves as slaves to use againset Loghain in the Landsmeet. BUT if you want to win the landsmeet you have to not bring it up since noone there cares....

Umm.... you can bring it up, they do care, and it does help you win.

tklivory wrote...

Yeah, Coerlic always supports Loghain, but then, he's also the only noble who still speaks positively of Rendon Howe after you kill him, which shows the nature of *his* character.

Actually he didn't speak positively of Howe. As I recall, the conversation went like this:

Ceorlic: Have you heard the news about Howe?
Sighard: Everyone in the city has. Bryland must be pleased.
Ceorlic: That half-blood is as cold as the mountains.
Sighard: Oh I can hardly speak ill of the sense or conscience of any man simply for wishing Rendon Howe dead. You've met the man, he made vipers seem personable.
Ceorlic: Hmph... well I didn't say I was shedding any tears over his death.

Doesn't seem to really be speaking positively of Howe. More.... apathetic if anything.

Also, Ceorlic supports Loghain due to his land being close to Loghain's and a level of fear of what might happen to him and his land, should he side against the throne.

Or so the rumors state.

 

And it is possible to lose the Landsmeet even with Anora's support if you don't mention the items linked with the Bannorn (Blight for Wulfram, the Rescued Noble, Eamon's poisoning, Elfstanna's brother) and concentrate mostly on Cailan's death and the elf slaves.

Sad but true: even in the game mechanics driven Landsmeet, if you care about those who are not in the Landsmeet itself, you'll likely lose and, without Anora, definitely *will* lose.

Though I think that seems to be less due to the Elves themselves and more due to how the Warden's credibility consistently is undermined by bringing up Ostagar, which is an argument that goes to Loghain in terms of tactical measures and what needed to be done. Though some nobles are skeptical and want to know what happened -- Bryland -- the fact remains that Loghain's call was the right one.

Did Loghain do everything he could've to save Cailan? No, I wouldn't say that. Did he do things to try to save Cailan? Certainly he did, prior to the battle. But really, all Loghain needed to do in the battle was at least send a unit of men to try and save Cailan and -- if he chose to -- Duncan as well.

Though saving Duncan would be an unlikely gesture, given Loghain's suspicions about the Wardens from the events in The Calling as well as the Wardens' own history -- both during and outside of the Blights of old.

They would've certainly failed to save Cailan -- seeing as how Cailan died not long after the retreat was sounded, and there was a fair bit of distance between Loghain's men and Cailan's men -- but at least Loghain would've been able to say he tried to save the king from death by darkspawn.

That said, Cailan's death didn't bring me many tears considering he's an idiot hero at its finest -- ruining strategies, relying on legends, seeking glory, being a child wanting to play at war.

I do give him some props though for smirking at an Ogre as it's about to crush him. That took balls, I'll give him that.

And don't forget Vaughan, for those who free him. He's an extra point in support, and another way to win the Landsmeet without Anora's support, if you decided to be honest with her rather than manipulate her.

I never understood why you couldn't get Vaughan's support and the money, aside from game limitations. Certainly, since he's alive and free he'd hear about the Landsmeet and show up, being the Arl of Denerim -- though that's probably subject to change with Anora and/or Alistair on the throne.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 27 juillet 2012 - 06:58 .

[Blazomancer]

Personally, I liked Cailan and respect what he did for Ferelden. Any other King would have sit comfortably in Denerim while his troops got decimated. The plan in Ostagar was the best plan from militaristic POV and for the welfare of major settlements like lothering and other southern provinces.

The fort at Ostagar was the best strategic place to channel anything that came out of the forest with the mountain pass being the only way to make it through. We have all seen the movie 300, which is of course based on a real life battle. And the Korcari wilds being the unmarked border of Ferelden it is only natural to defend your kingdom at the border rather than letting the darkspawn surround you around denerim. Cailan might have realised something in the lines of that it's impossible to end a blight without a tainted Human or Grey warden. And as Duncan has returned with new recruits and many GW's already were stationed in Ostagar, the plan was even more solid. Cailan did the same thing his father Maric would have probably done and an unbiased strategic genius Loghain would have normally advised.

The battle would have been difficult but Loghain and his troops with flanking bonuses would have been enough to hold the line or make the DS temporarily flee. This would have certainly have bought enough time, a few days may be, for the Orlesian Wardens to arrive at Ostagar. Don't forget one of them was Riordan (who nearly soloed the ArchD ultimately) and is the unsung hero of Ferelden. Then there was Cailan's correspondence with the Empress of Orlais who would have finally sent Chevaliers across the border although Loghain was suspicious of them.

The only way this plan might have gone wrong is if the archD appeared, although couldn't we trust on Duncan's might.

Some would say Cailan's force would have been outnumbered anyway. But I say, seeing how each darkspawn was getting killed with one hit in the end game, I'd say no.



Let us see what were our strenghts:
(From the gameplay perspective)

1. Ser Cautherin, the dreaded Ser Cautherin, who can actually kill a well built warden tank. I'd say she alone could have taken out at least 100 dspwns with her summer sword with that chance of knockdown. Not to mention she had two lives. ;P

2. Loghain of course, the perfect tank wearing the river dane armor.

3. Cailan, wearing the way overpowered Cailan's armor set, with Maric's blade and Cailan's sword with ridiculous +5 mana regen set bonus.

4. Duncan, of course, who soloed an Ogre (Perhaps boss level) before falling even when injured beforehand by the same ogre's juggernaut bash. He's alone equal to i don't know how many darkspawns.

5. Wynne, who was next in line to be the first enchanter, leading the few circle magi, who can provide ample healing and buff for Loghain and Cautherin.

6. A wildcard was Uldred, yes the uldred who went rogue a little while later.

7. Tranquils, to enchant weapons of the common soldiers and the elite heavy armored soldiers under Cautherin's command.

8. Some chantry mothers and sisters, to boost the morale of the troops by ensuring them false holy protection.

9. Ash Warriors, who are not made of ash, with their +2 attack axes and painted mabaris.

10. Ser Landry with his Chevalier's mace who was too honor bound that he came back in Darkspawn chronicles.

9. Two or three days later, Arl Eamon and his elite Templars and troops would have arrived. Notable among his troops was Ser Perth, who is a pain in the ass with his insane amount of health if you are trying to kill him with friendly fire for the Chevalier armor pieces. Not to speak of the four knights that remained with Perth and Bann Teagan who can freaking fight with just noble clothing and shield and sword. Of course these soldiers are "champions of redcliffe" with ample crowd control, viz-a-viz war cry.
 Note: According to the timeline, Eamon had not been poisoned till then and so many knights would not have been lost to the quest of the urn.

11. Of course my mabari was there, who could lick clean the face of Cautherin if it got too much smeared with DS blood or fell a few DS with his stench.

12. With a little persuading the chasind folks would have joined the cause who know the korcari wilds like the back of their hands.

13. Since Flemeth was planning from the beginning she would have finally sent morrigan to bed one of the GW's before the ArchD got slain, or who knows might have come herself.





The only reason the plan went awry was Loghain's treachery rooted in his suspicious beliefs regarding the wardens and orlesians. One might wonder why the Tower of Ishal was sealed away by the orders of Loghain, when some lower chambers were discoverd through which few darkspawns could have sneaked into and ambushed the army from within. Shouldn't that possibility be included in his plan before sending the warden and Alistair to light the beacon. Finally that only proved to be the weakest link in the chain. The warden and Alistair were forced to fight through the different levels of the Tower and the elite boss Ogre, which caused delay and the beacon was not lit in time. Even if Loghain and his men responded to the signal, one can only imagine if Duncan and Cailan would have survived. Cailan's helmet and Shield were nowhere to be seen, Duncan was fighting as if in steroids, it surely looked like they were more desperate to survive. Their last thoughts before dying might have been why the hell the tower is not lit yet, and not why Loghain hasn't come yet. Loghain's loyalty was never in question; Wasn't the situation in the tower of Ishal taken too lightly?

I'm not saying the battle could have been won 100% if everything went according to plan, but certainly there was a hell of a chance. And from the point of view of the gameplay of DAO, the forces of Cailan was hugely overpowered with likes of those mentioned above. But some would say that it would have been unrealistic. To that I'd say, most of the combat in the game is unrealistic. Only four people can't really slay such number of foes.

Ultimately this is just my opinion and I may be wrong. But for me, Long Live King Cailan.

[K Le Blanc]

Sadly Loghain is paranoid and overconfident as well as overly sensetive to outside influences.

[TEWR]

Blazomancer wrote...

Personally, I liked Cailan and respect what he did for Ferelden. Any other King would have sit comfortably in Denerim while his troops got decimated.

While he had the right idea, his mindset for doing so was far from respectable, as he really only wanted to go down in glory and legends as the one who killed the Archdemon.

The plan in Ostagar was the best plan from militaristic POV and for the welfare of major settlements like lothering and other southern provinces.

This is true, when we consider the amount of forces present in Ostagar. However, Cailan ruined the plan Loghain put forth. Loghain's plan was sound. Cailan didn't follow that -- remember, this is the person fascinated by glory and legends and bored with strategy and tactics. 

Loghain's plan was to draw the Darkspawn into the valley while the King's Army was protected on both the left and right sides by the fortress' walls. Cailan however ruined that plan by:

1) launching only one volley of arrows, whereas multiple volleys should've been fired. Not by every soldier -- as you do need a phalanx formation stemming back some way with shield men to control the approaching Darkspawn -- but by enough of them in the back to whittle down the Darkspawn.

2) sending the Mabari hounds out there immediately after the single volley, taking down maybe one or two Darkspawn per Mabari -- thereby just making them fodder.

3) Charging out of the defensible position they were in, having no walls for cover -- you can see it when he shouts "For Ferelden!"

 Cailan might have realised something in the lines of that it's impossible to end a blight without a tainted Human or Grey warden.

Highly doubtful, as not even Loghain -- the man behind the victories -- knew why the Wardens were needed and you'll find out yourself that Cailan's plan was to kill the Archdemon himself with Maric's blade.
 

And as Duncan has returned with new recruits and many GW's already were stationed in Ostagar, the plan was even more solid. Cailan did the same thing his father Maric would have probably done and an unbiased strategic genius Loghain would have normally advised.

Except Cailan ruined the battle plan Loghain put forth.

The battle would have been difficult but Loghain and his troops with flanking bonuses would have been enough to hold the line or make the DS temporarily flee. This would have certainly have bought enough time, a few days may be, for the Orlesian Wardens to arrive at Ostagar. Don't forget one of them was Riordan (who nearly soloed the ArchD ultimately) and is the unsung hero of Ferelden. Then there was Cailan's correspondence with the Empress of Orlais who would have finally sent Chevaliers across the border although Loghain was suspicious of them.

Though you also have to remember Orlais' history of using the Wardens and the Blights to their advantage to further their expansionist policies, thereby creating a great deal of suspicion and ire towards them from men like Loghain -- who has seen little to no reason why he should trust the Wardens.

Not that they actually would've done that, mind you. At least, Celene and the Wardens wouldn't, the latter due to them having signed a notice of neutrality centuries prior -- though that changes as the game progresses. But Celene hardly speaks for all of Orlais, as Alistair in DAII and Asunder will tell us. So Loghain's suspicions based on history both recent and long past was understandable, if ultimately wrong.

The only way this plan might have gone wrong is if the archD appeared, although couldn't we trust on Duncan's might.

Not really. The Darkspawn horde was far more numerous then anyone expected -- you can see it going as far back as the very mountains in the background -- and Cailan had ruined any chance of Loghain's plan succeeding.

Some would say Cailan's force would have been outnumbered anyway. But I say, seeing how each darkspawn was getting killed with one hit in the end game, I'd say no.

Gameplay =/= lore.

It's a known fact in the lore that a single berserking Hurlock is more then a match for a dozen soldiers. And you know, Gaider's already said in the past that the horde was far more numerous then anyone expected.

The only reason the plan went awry was Loghain's treachery

It wasn't treachery. Withdrawal yes. Retreat without suffiicient effort given to have tried to save Cailan, yes. But to call it treachery just seems like trying to paint Loghain as a person that cared little for his country when in fact it's the complete opposite. 

rooted in his suspicious beliefs regarding the wardens and orlesians. One might wonder why the Tower of Ishal was sealed away by the orders of Loghain, when some lower chambers were discoverd through which few darkspawns could have sneaked into and ambushed the army from within. Shouldn't that possibility be included in his plan before sending the warden and Alistair to light the beacon.

There are a myriad of reasons why the Tower wasn't sealed as it should've been, but ultimately they lead to the same thing.

1) Bioware doesn't know a damn thing about warfare and failed to realize how they made Loghain an inconsistent character.

I'm not saying the battle could have been won 100% if everything went according to plan, but certainly there was a hell of a chance.

Using the strategy Loghain told us and assuming Cailan didn't ruin it by charging out into the open? If that's what you mean, then...

not really, as the horde would've surrounded Cailan's men and Loghain's. I refer you to KnightofPhoenix's blog on Ostagar, where he paints a depiction of how the battle would've gone had Loghain charged. His blog uses Ishal's delay as the reference of when they would've charged, but the numbers of the horde remain unchanged in regards to my point here and had the Tower not been compromised the result would've been the same.

Loghain's men would've died alongside the King's, leaving Ferelden defenseless against the Blight. 

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 juillet 2012 - 02:23 .

[DeathScepter]

cailan is an idiot.

[tklivory]

I've always viewed Cailan as a cipher for romanticism vs realism in the game. There's the King leading his troops into battle, dictating what he feels is right, and then dying for it. Could Loghain have won the battle? No, the numbers were very much against them, and even Cailan realized that at the end. Could Loghain have saved the King? Yes, and that is where the crux of romanticism or realism enters in. The Romantics would save the King because... that's what you do, save the King. The Realists would view the loss of lives as unacceptable to save someone who basically made decisions that led to his own poor position on the field.

Thus, I view him as a cipher, used to unconsciously push a player into one path or the other.

Modifié par tklivory, 28 juillet 2012 - 03:24 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Rojahar wrote...

Didn't Loghain never intend to reinforce Cailan, and letting Cailan die was part of the plan all along? I haven't played in a while, so my memory is a bit fuzzy.

Huh? No, Loghain didn't plan for Cailan to die. He was willing to let that group Cailan was leading die if he thought the battle was screwed either way, hence why he tried to talk Cailan into being somewhere other than the front of that group.

[tklivory]

I think that speculation (that Loghain intended to kill Cailan) started after the release of Return to Ostagar, when it was revealed that Cailan was going to put Anora aside and marry Empress Celene. It was never stated outright, but certainly a lot of people began wondering...

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

tklivory wrote...

I think that speculation (that Loghain intended to kill Cailan) started after the release of Return to Ostagar, when it was revealed that Cailan was going to put Anora aside and marry Empress Celene. It was never stated outright, but certainly a lot of people began wondering...

And here I thought it started when Flemeth mused about Loghain's motivations in a cryptic way that was probably calculated to make the Warden forget he/she'd lit the beacon too late. (I know it worked on me.)

[tklivory]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

And here I thought it started when Flemeth mused about Loghain's motivations in a cryptic way that was probably calculated to make the Warden forget he/she'd lit the beacon too late. (I know it worked on me.)

Ah, I forgot about that.  Of course, I didn't hit that dialogue until after a few playthroughs. 

[Blazomancer]

I am aware that the darkspawn horde was enormous, as it seemed like a sea of fireflies in the cutscenes. But what I wanted to say was if gameplay =/= lore, then slaying the archdemon is impossible without using modern explosives and/or weapons. If gameplay =/= lore then it is impossible for riordan to jump off the tower like a dork and drop into the hard skin of the dragon w/o snapping some of his bones. And to thrust a sword into a beast like that, one would probably need to use a hammer and repeatedly strike the sword with inhuman force to even pierce the skin. If gameplay =/= lore, retaking denerim in the endgame is impossible even with elves, dwarves and the circle; well, the ds horde was very large, soooooooooo veryyyyyyyyy larrrrrge.
If gameplay=/=lore, then duncan couldn't have killed that ogre as if he's doing mountain climbing on it's chest.

If gameplay=/=lore, then I expect that at least in the cutscenes it is depicted as such. If gameplay=/=lore, then the whole game is one big lie in the end. The hurlocks were always berserking in front of my warden, & my warden was always outnumbered in battles; so following the lore, my party shouldn't have survived till the end. It's a big lie.

I was of course dissecting the whole thing from the perspective of gameplay; even a child knows that 2=/=1 if both sides have the same weapons. It is really weird to think that a darkspawn can berserk in the lore, but my teammates can do so only in the gameplay.
When the ogre grabbed cailan, if any mage was near, force field should have been cast on cailan. Hehehehe, just realized how stupid video games are.

So my question is:
Anything can happen in gameplay, right, as gameplay=/=lore.
According to lore, as EWRedux mention a single berserking hurlock or ds can be match for a dozen odd soldiers. So if we are to assume for simplicity that there are 10000 ds in the endgame (overlooking for a moment that the horde was very large, veeerrrrryy largggge) the we would require about 120000 in our force to match their might. But the horde was even larger perhaps! Did the lore mention anything about that? I'm not completely wrong you see, i do have a point. I may not be einstein to understand quantum physics & apply it to battle dynamics or shakespeare to understand or even appreciate the beauty of storytelling. But i have little brains to know that there are contradictions all over in the lore itself.

[Lemina Ausa]

I think the funniest part was when I was sent to fort drakon (playing warrior), and I beat down a fully armored guard (with alistar) with my bare firsts in my undies. They have some REALLY weak guards in the fort, guarding what's probably 2 very important prisoners.

As a mage it was slightly more believable because of spells, but seriously......

[tklivory]

@ Blazomancer - heh, one of my first threads in BSN was a rant about Game Mechanics vs Role Playing, which is similar to the gameplay =/= lore argument. (Like the whole 'let's go the tower to bring back mages to save Connor' option - Wade Taeodor Flemeth, really?)

And yes, the lore is full of contradictions - one of my favorites being ogres: so the one on the battlefield can kill multiple armed foes without getting harmed himself, and the one in the tower is taken down by two rookies and a couple of helpers? Bleh. Oh, and when Wynne 'discovers' her higher Spirit Healer powers - suddenly a darkspawn emissary can basically one-shot almost kill the whole party? Seriously?? Ah, game mechanics, sometimes you're a little *too* obvious.

[coldwetn0se]

hehe....and this is why I allow for a certain amount of gameplay =lore. Love the codex, but I take some of it with a grain of salt. If Epilogue slides, a few choice missions, and timelines can be handwaved by the creators of this world, I have no problem doing a bit of handwaving of my own, to make things fit/match up to what I see and play at with this game.

Happy gaming, all!

[TEWR]

tklivory wrote...

I've always viewed Cailan as a cipher for romanticism vs realism in the game. There's the King leading his troops into battle, dictating what he feels is right, and then dying for it.  Could Loghain have saved the King? Yes, and that is where the crux of romanticism or realism enters in. The Romantics would save the King because... that's what you do, save the King. The Realists would view the loss of lives as unacceptable to save someone who basically made decisions that led to his own poor position on the field.

Thus, I view him as a cipher, used to unconsciously push a player into one path or the other.

I tend to view myself as sort of a middle of those two, if that's even possible. I don't think Loghain should've saved the King, nor do I think he should've refrained from doing so. Or something along those lines. In essence, it really doesn't matter to me which action was taken because the real important factor to me was the retreat of the army under Loghain's command in a situation that couldn't have been won, based on the numbers Ostagar had as well as what went wrong at Ostagar.

That said, had Loghain attempted to save the King by sending a scant handful of men to do so -- whether it succeeded or failed is ultimately irrelevant, so long as the attempt was made -- it would've gone a long way towards his intended goal of having Ferelden back him up against the Darkspawn. So there's a certain level of reasoning to lean towards the Romantic perspective versus the Realist one.

Of course, if Cailan was saved, then things become tricky for Loghain because there's nothing to guarantee Cailan wouldn't pull more Idiot Hero stunts.

Thus it goes back to what I said earlier: Cailan's death really doesn't bug me.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 juillet 2012 - 10:38 .