360 réponses à ce sujet

[flanny]

Yeah, I mean I would have been happy if Shepard in Refuse was able to disable the catalyst, so the reapers lost their higher functions and the outcome was determined by your EMS.

As for a conventional victory without the catalyst involved there were many ideas;
-the anti-reaper canon, could easily have been replicated.
-Re-developing FTL drives to allow collisions, codex even said this would take out reaper capital ships.
-fleets remembering that ships can move in 3 dimensions, hit the reapers from multiple angles and and use better maneuverability, again this is in the codex.
-employ guerilla tactics and hit and run attacks, again the codex says this was very effective.
-put more focus onto to geth and rachni, both are capable of assembling large fleets quicker then the other faces can imagine.
-recreate the Hanar defence turrents, even in low number it will require large reaper fources just to attack a single colony, delaying them while bleeding the numbers.
-using reaper tech, with this cycles head start, having already developed thanix technology will be able to recreate more reaper tech a war continues.
- rig relays to explode, if reapers can be lured in sufficient numbers why not, particularly if in terminus space.

so yes i think a conventional victory is possible with or without the catalyst

[Conniving_Eagle]

sth128 wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

That's a very poor analogy.

No it's a perfect analogy. It takes a bunch of ants to defeat one human. Humans are far more superior than ants. A human can travel a large distance in a short time compare to ants.

Humans collect ants and indoctrinate them into thinking the glass ant farm is their home. Humans are beyond the ant's comprehension. In most daily situations, humans are the vanguard of their end (via finger, shoes, or Raid).

Also, from time to time, an ant would escape a massacre only to find himself standing before a human child who proceeds to taunt the ant with a device that focuses tremendous amounts of energy (ie. sunlight) into a beam (ie. Synthesis).


Seriously, ants vs. humans is the best possible analogy for the Reaper conflict.

It's a perfect analogy? No it's not. Humans have technology, ants do not. Ants and humans are on a completely different level of sentience.

[StrawberryRainPop]

sth128 wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

That's a very poor analogy.

No it's a perfect analogy. It takes a bunch of ants to defeat one human. Humans are far more superior than ants. A human can travel a large distance in a short time compare to ants.

Humans collect ants and indoctrinate them into thinking the glass ant farm is their home. Humans are beyond the ant's comprehension. In most daily situations, humans are the vanguard of their end (via finger, shoes, or Raid).

Also, from time to time, an ant would escape a massacre only to find himself standing before a human child who proceeds to taunt the ant with a device that focuses tremendous amounts of energy (ie. sunlight) into a beam (ie. Synthesis).


Seriously, ants vs. humans is the best possible analogy for the Reaper conflict.

hahaha....show me several instances of Ants killing humans.  Show me ants with technlogy. THE FACT that humans can build ships the size that can match a small reaper, well, i dont see ants building any devices. They run amok without technolgy, and are a single race, like the protheans.

SO NO, your analogy fails.

A better one would be, WHAT IF, all the animals, and nature, banded against humans.

Modifié par StrawberryRainPop, 26 juillet 2012 - 02:22 .

[Chashan]

dreman9999 wrote...

This has been the concept of stated from ME1. Not having a conventional victory is not bad writing Lord of the rings had and Dragon age had unconventional victories. Yet, when ME has it it's horrible writing.

Dragon Age's prereq of "killing the Dragon" is rather conventional.

Sure, there is Morrigan's wish to become mother of a god, but that is somewhat minor in the more immediate future, as the same condition still applies to defeat the horde.

LotR's requirement was to destroy the ring, which was possible by chucking it into a volcano - the place of its creation, true, but one could argue that had there been any other known volcano in Middle Earth, they could have tried that one.


ME thrived on its message of spitting into the face of Reaper inevitability and kicking their butts through blood and sweat and be victorious. It was the series' selling point, it's what makes ME1 such a dang complete experience with no need for sequels.

That is why the Wunderwaffe at the end comes across as cheap, and needlessly make it more complicated than it needs to be just makes things worse at the end.

[Conniving_Eagle]

Kel212 wrote...

Is your issue with the writing in the ending or throughout the entire game? Because having a conventional victory effectively nullifies most of the game...

Wait, what?

Having the war assets we spent 30 hours collecting and additional hours improving via the multiplayer mean something nullifies most of the game?

[dreman9999]

FAButzke wrote...

Yeah, it's possible. I agree with you, despite what the creator of the series think.

No, it's not.
The have more ships then we do which can kill our ships with one shot and they thenselves take massive attack from concentrated fire to kill.
The can make unlimited ammount of units via husk forces, which includes a form of husk this the form of a space fight that can dive into our ship and blow it up from the inside out.

Added with tat the reapers are not even fighting at their full strenght.

[sth128]

Chashan wrote...

sth128 wrote...

This again?

Provide a valid tactical plan for an ant colony to destroy all humans. The humans have every technological advantage at our disposal (also our shoes). The ants have nothing except what ants usually have.

Go.

The Reapers are not that omnipotent, all things told...

Besides, the gun downed one Reaper that we know of. That it did not serve as a blue-print for additional long-range artillery against the Reapers is just bogus at the end of the day.

Neither are humans omnipotent. Yet ants still stand no chance at a conventional victory against us. If we are going into the "that we know of" territory, then I can just as easily say that Reapers didn't develop defenses against such weapons "that we know of".

I mean, Sovereign had a weakness if you interrupt him while he "ASSUMED DIRECT CONTROL". This weakness is never seen again in any other Reaper. The Reapers are taking over planets at an accelerated rate, and you want to build a bunch of giant, planet-based guns?

I mean what happens when the Reapers simply invade other planets? The gun fires slugs at sub-light speeds. What good is it against a huge armada light years away?

[FAButzke]

dreman9999 wrote...

FAButzke wrote...

Yeah, it's possible. I agree with you, despite what the creator of the series think.

No, it's not.
The have more ships then we do which can kill our ships with one shot and they thenselves take massive attack from concentrated fire to kill.
The can make unlimited ammount of units via husk forces, which includes a form of husk this the form of a space fight that can dive into our ship and blow it up from the inside out.

Added with tat the reapers are not even fighting at their full strenght.

I was being sarcastic. Read my previous post =)

[Conniving_Eagle]

flanny wrote...

Yeah, I mean I would have been happy if Shepard in Refuse was able to disable the catalyst, so the reapers lost their higher functions and the outcome was determined by your EMS.

As for a conventional victory without the catalyst involved there were many ideas;
-the anti-reaper canon, could easily have been replicated.
-Re-developing FTL drives to allow collisions, codex even said this would take out reaper capital ships.
-fleets remembering that ships can move in 3 dimensions, hit the reapers from multiple angles and and use better maneuverability, again this is in the codex.
-employ guerilla tactics and hit and run attacks, again the codex says this was very effective.
-put more focus onto to geth and rachni, both are capable of assembling large fleets quicker then the other faces can imagine.
-recreate the Hanar defence turrents, even in low number it will require large reaper fources just to attack a single colony, delaying them while bleeding the numbers.
-using reaper tech, with this cycles head start, having already developed thanix technology will be able to recreate more reaper tech a war continues.
- rig relays to explode, if reapers can be lured in sufficient numbers why not, particularly if in terminus space.

so yes i think a conventional victory is possible with or without the catalyst

Yeah, strange. At one point the Rachni threatened the existence of the entire galaxy, yet they're only worth what? 100 EMS?

[dreman9999]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Kel212 wrote...

Is your issue with the writing in the ending or throughout the entire game? Because having a conventional victory effectively nullifies most of the game...

Wait, what?

Having the war assets we spent 30 hours collecting and additional hours improving via the multiplayer mean something nullifies most of the game?

From the very start your told it for holding back the reapers. It was never stated that the fleets would defeat the reapers. Add EMS has a point, it controls the option your given in the end of the game.

[StrawberryRainPop]

dreman9999 wrote...

FAButzke wrote...

Yeah, it's possible. I agree with you, despite what the creator of the series think.

No, it's not.
The have more ships then we do which can kill our ships with one shot and they thenselves take massive attack from concentrated fire to kill.
The can make unlimited ammount of units via husk forces, which includes a form of husk this the form of a space fight that can dive into our ship and blow it up from the inside out.

Added with tat the reapers are not even fighting at their full strenght.

listen to what we are saying. Why not jam the reapers? We clearly now have tech to targer synthetics, why not program it to deactivate Synthetics?

Use Tactics, not brute force. Turn the Reapers strength against them.

[flanny]

dreman9999 wrote...

FAButzke wrote...

Yeah, it's possible. I agree with you, despite what the creator of the series think.

No, it's not.
The have more ships then we do which can kill our ships with one shot and they thenselves take massive attack from concentrated fire to kill.
The can make unlimited ammount of units via husk forces, which includes a form of husk this the form of a space fight that can dive into our ship and blow it up from the inside out.

Added with tat the reapers are not even fighting at their full strenght.

where are you getting that from, certainly not the codex

[Conniving_Eagle]

sth128 wrote...

Chashan wrote...

sth128 wrote...

This again?

Provide a valid tactical plan for an ant colony to destroy all humans. The humans have every technological advantage at our disposal (also our shoes). The ants have nothing except what ants usually have.

Go.

The Reapers are not that omnipotent, all things told...

Besides, the gun downed one Reaper that we know of. That it did not serve as a blue-print for additional long-range artillery against the Reapers is just bogus at the end of the day.

Neither are humans omnipotent. Yet ants still stand no chance at a conventional victory against us. If we are going into the "that we know of" territory, then I can just as easily say that Reapers didn't develop defenses against such weapons "that we know of".

I mean, Sovereign had a weakness if you interrupt him while he "ASSUMED DIRECT CONTROL". This weakness is never seen again in any other Reaper. The Reapers are taking over planets at an accelerated rate, and you want to build a bunch of giant, planet-based guns?

I mean what happens when the Reapers simply invade other planets? The gun fires slugs at sub-light speeds. What good is it against a huge armada light years away?

You realize that ants have zero technology and a severely lower awareness level, right? A better analogy is if the Reapers tried killing cavemen or pre-spaceflight civilizations like the Yahg.

[StrawberryRainPop]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

flanny wrote...

Yeah, I mean I would have been happy if Shepard in Refuse was able to disable the catalyst, so the reapers lost their higher functions and the outcome was determined by your EMS.

As for a conventional victory without the catalyst involved there were many ideas;
-the anti-reaper canon, could easily have been replicated.
-Re-developing FTL drives to allow collisions, codex even said this would take out reaper capital ships.
-fleets remembering that ships can move in 3 dimensions, hit the reapers from multiple angles and and use better maneuverability, again this is in the codex.
-employ guerilla tactics and hit and run attacks, again the codex says this was very effective.
-put more focus onto to geth and rachni, both are capable of assembling large fleets quicker then the other faces can imagine.
-recreate the Hanar defence turrents, even in low number it will require large reaper fources just to attack a single colony, delaying them while bleeding the numbers.
-using reaper tech, with this cycles head start, having already developed thanix technology will be able to recreate more reaper tech a war continues.
- rig relays to explode, if reapers can be lured in sufficient numbers why not, particularly if in terminus space.

so yes i think a conventional victory is possible with or without the catalyst

Yeah, strange. At one point the Rachni threatened the existence of the entire galaxy, yet they're only worth what? 100 EMS?

exactly. Thats just laughable. Apparently, they can breed fast enough to threaten us when reapers were controlling them, but now, they are worth less than a pack of blue suns from Aria? Please......

[Conniving_Eagle]

dreman9999 wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Kel212 wrote...

Is your issue with the writing in the ending or throughout the entire game? Because having a conventional victory effectively nullifies most of the game...

Wait, what?

Having the war assets we spent 30 hours collecting and additional hours improving via the multiplayer mean something nullifies most of the game?

From the very start your told it for holding back the reapers. It was never stated that the fleets would defeat the reapers. Add EMS has a point, it controls the option your given in the end of the game.

Lol, oh boy.

[Kel212]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Kel212 wrote...

Is your issue with the writing in the ending or throughout the entire game? Because having a conventional victory effectively nullifies most of the game...

Wait, what?

Having the war assets we spent 30 hours collecting and additional hours improving via the multiplayer mean something nullifies most of the game?

As the current game stands, Mars and Thessia are solely focussed on the Crucible, aka, your non-conventional weapon, and the search for the Catalyst and help for the Crucible permeates almost every other mission too. 

You also recruit your allies to your cause because you have the 'superweapon'. Without the Crucible, the Turians might say 'why not liberate Palaven first?' 

I'm saying that if a conventional victory were to be possible and satisfying, it would require a total re-write of ME3. The Crucible may be an example of bad writing, but so is a broken promise. Having half the game revolve around the Crucible only to not need it in the end is a massive broken promise. 

[dreman9999]

Chashan wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

This has been the concept of stated from ME1. Not having a conventional victory is not bad writing Lord of the rings had and Dragon age had unconventional victories. Yet, when ME has it it's horrible writing.

Dragon Age's prereq of "killing the Dragon" is rather conventional.

Sure, there is Morrigan's wish to become mother of a god, but that is somewhat minor in the more immediate future, as the same condition still applies to defeat the horde.

LotR's requirement was to destroy the ring, which was possible by chucking it into a volcano - the place of its creation, true, but one could argue that had there been any other known volcano in Middle Earth, they could have tried that one.


ME thrived on its message of spitting into the face of Reaper inevitability and kicking their butts through blood and sweat and be victorious. It was the series' selling point, it's what makes ME1 such a dang complete experience with no need for sequels.

That is why the Wunderwaffe at the end comes across as cheap, and needlessly make it more complicated than it needs to be just makes things worse at the end.

Play dragon age again. The requirement was to kill the dragon with a gray warden. Now, what would happen it's The main villian got his way and kill off all the gray wardens in fereldin and then sent an army after the darkspawn.....They would lose. What make DA:O victory unconvetional is the fact that out side the spacific weakness, the enemy would not be killed.
And for Lotr, detroy that ring is clearly one of the hardest things a person can do. It an unconventional victory because the enemy would be unbeatable out side of the weakness. 

ME3 is the same concept. The crucible effects the weakness of the reapers. It a victory by attacking the weakness of the reapers.

[Conniving_Eagle]

Kel212 wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Kel212 wrote...

Is your issue with the writing in the ending or throughout the entire game? Because having a conventional victory effectively nullifies most of the game...

Wait, what?

Having the war assets we spent 30 hours collecting and additional hours improving via the multiplayer mean something nullifies most of the game?

As the current game stands, Mars and Thessia are solely focussed on the Crucible, aka, your non-conventional weapon, and the search for the Catalyst and help for the Crucible permeates almost every other mission too. 

You also recruit your allies to your cause because you have the 'superweapon'. Without the Crucible, the Turians might say 'why not liberate Palaven first?' 

I'm saying that if a conventional victory were to be possible and satisfying, it would require a total re-write of ME3. The Crucible may be an example of bad writing, but so is a broken promise. Having half the game revolve around the Crucible only to not need it in the end is a massive broken promise. 

Or you know, change the function of the crucible to something like weakening the Reapers, so that even after using it we still need a sufficient EMS to win.

[dreman9999]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Kel212 wrote...

Is your issue with the writing in the ending or throughout the entire game? Because having a conventional victory effectively nullifies most of the game...

Wait, what?

Having the war assets we spent 30 hours collecting and additional hours improving via the multiplayer mean something nullifies most of the game?

From the very start your told it for holding back the reapers. It was never stated that the fleets would defeat the reapers. Add EMS has a point, it controls the option your given in the end of the game.

Lol, oh boy.

See the ending at low ems . Then come back. It controls the option your given.

[JamesFaith]

StrawberryRainPop wrote...

listen to what we are saying. Why not jam the reapers? We clearly now have tech to targer synthetics, why not program it to deactivate Synthetics?

Use Tactics, not brute force. Turn the Reapers strength against them.

This theory about some hidden Reapers weakness like jamming them is unrealistic. Reason is simple - Reapers fighting with galaxy billions years, which means that all significant weakness were discovered and tried to used against them long, long ago. So it's logical to assume that modern Reapres are maximally optimalised, not perfect, but surely without criticals flaws.

[AresKeith]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Kel212 wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Kel212 wrote...

Is your issue with the writing in the ending or throughout the entire game? Because having a conventional victory effectively nullifies most of the game...

Wait, what?

Having the war assets we spent 30 hours collecting and additional hours improving via the multiplayer mean something nullifies most of the game?

As the current game stands, Mars and Thessia are solely focussed on the Crucible, aka, your non-conventional weapon, and the search for the Catalyst and help for the Crucible permeates almost every other mission too. 

You also recruit your allies to your cause because you have the 'superweapon'. Without the Crucible, the Turians might say 'why not liberate Palaven first?' 

I'm saying that if a conventional victory were to be possible and satisfying, it would require a total re-write of ME3. The Crucible may be an example of bad writing, but so is a broken promise. Having half the game revolve around the Crucible only to not need it in the end is a massive broken promise. 

Or you know, change the function of the crucible to something like weakening the Reapers, so that even after using it we still need a sufficient EMS to win.

that would make much more sense in a Video Game.. oh wait lol

[Conniving_Eagle]

dreman9999 wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Kel212 wrote...

Is your issue with the writing in the ending or throughout the entire game? Because having a conventional victory effectively nullifies most of the game...

Wait, what?

Having the war assets we spent 30 hours collecting and additional hours improving via the multiplayer mean something nullifies most of the game?

From the very start your told it for holding back the reapers. It was never stated that the fleets would defeat the reapers. Add EMS has a point, it controls the option your given in the end of the game.

Lol, oh boy.

See the ending at low ems . Then come back. It controls the option your given.

I'll re-highlight the problem.

Modifié par Conniving_Eagle, 26 juillet 2012 - 02:33 .

[Taboo]

You are told twice, TWICE, before going to the Citadel for the first time that conventional victory is impossible.

[Conniving_Eagle]

JamesFaith wrote...

StrawberryRainPop wrote...

listen to what we are saying. Why not jam the reapers? We clearly now have tech to targer synthetics, why not program it to deactivate Synthetics?

Use Tactics, not brute force. Turn the Reapers strength against them.

This theory about some hidden Reapers weakness like jamming them is unrealistic. Reason is simple - Reapers fighting with galaxy billions years, which means that all significant weakness were discovered and tried to used against them long, long ago. So it's logical to assume that modern Reapres are maximally optimalised, not perfect, but surely without criticals flaws.

And our cycle isn't any different from the previous ones whatsoever.