360 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

flanny wrote...

Yeah, I mean I would have been happy if Shepard in Refuse was able to disable the catalyst, so the reapers lost their higher functions and the outcome was determined by your EMS.

As for a conventional victory without the catalyst involved there were many ideas;
-the anti-reaper canon, could easily have been replicated.
-Re-developing FTL drives to allow collisions, codex even said this would take out reaper capital ships.
-fleets remembering that ships can move in 3 dimensions, hit the reapers from multiple angles and and use better maneuverability, again this is in the codex.
-employ guerilla tactics and hit and run attacks, again the codex says this was very effective.
-put more focus onto to geth and rachni, both are capable of assembling large fleets quicker then the other faces can imagine.
-recreate the Hanar defence turrents, even in low number it will require large reaper fources just to attack a single colony, delaying them while bleeding the numbers.
-using reaper tech, with this cycles head start, having already developed thanix technology will be able to recreate more reaper tech a war continues.
- rig relays to explode, if reapers can be lured in sufficient numbers why not, particularly if in terminus space.

so yes i think a conventional victory is possible with or without the catalyst

The consept of an EMP is outside your understanding then.
Also, you reason for hating the choice mak no sense. The concept of a choice needed to be made on what possible you can do with the event in hand. The virmire choice workd because of the time avalible to one ofyour crew and the vunriablity the narmady would have on landing. You drop a ship in a combat zone and it will get shot.

And with the crucible, the problem with understanding it is on you hand. Control is just a rewrite of the catalyst systems programing. It just like upgrading a network of computers via it's servers. Itjust using what is there already with te powerof the crucible to assist.
Destroy is like an emp. It effect's all tech and programing. If the programing of an AI is corrupted, it will stop working like any computer.

Added.
1.The anti reaper cannon failed. 
2.doing that is a bad idea because reapers can take the impact and we need the ships to even stand group with them.
3.The reaper are doing the "3-d tactic" as well.
4.That didn't work at all in the story.
5.Those guns were eventually over run by husk forces.
6.We are alredy doin gthat and losing.
7.You have to keep them in place to do that and we lose massive ammounts of resources doing that.

[dreman9999]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Kel212 wrote...

Is your issue with the writing in the ending or throughout the entire game? Because having a conventional victory effectively nullifies most of the game...

Wait, what?

Having the war assets we spent 30 hours collecting and additional hours improving via the multiplayer mean something nullifies most of the game?

From the very start your told it for holding back the reapers. It was never stated that the fleets would defeat the reapers. Add EMS has a point, it controls the option your given in the end of the game.

Lol, oh boy.

See the ending at low ems . Then come back. It controls the option your given.

I'll re-highlight the problem.

How is that a problem.Also. EMS affects how well your fleet does in the final battle. 

[sth128]

StrawberryRainPop wrote...

hahaha....show me several instances of Ants killing humans. 

Ok right here.

You may not know this, but fire ants are in fact taking over large swaths of land in several American states as well as around the world. Scientists are trying to eliminate entire colonies using parasitic flies.

Show me ants with technlogy.

Read up on ant colony structures.

You may not consider the intricate tunnels "technology", but that's only because we have far more advanced tools. Ants, along with termites and other insects, have developed colonies with central air conditioning via complex structures and design.

Ants "farm" moss for food, gather specific resources to achieve specific goals. During a flood, they bury specific entrances to protect the brood. Certain ants manipulate their genetic makeup to fulfill specific purpose (ie. worker, warrior, new queen, etc.)

THE FACT that humans can build ships the size that can match a small reaper, well, i dont see ants building any devices.

That's because you know nothing of ants. Like I said above, their colonies are in fact extremely complex. Similarly, termite colonies have been closely studied by scientists because they have certain qualities that can be applied to human buildings.

They run amok without technolgy, and are a single race, like the protheans.

SO NO, your analogy fails.

No. Your understanding of the natural world is extremely lacking. You think all ants are a single race, when in fact there are many species of ants.

ps. Your understanding of Protheans is lacking too. Protheans is an intergalactic empire composed of several space-faring races.

Modifié par sth128, 26 juillet 2012 - 02:38 .

[Chashan]

dreman9999 wrote...


]Play dragon age again. The requirement was to kill the dragon with a gray warden. Now, what would happen it's The main villian got his way and kill off all the gray wardens in fereldin and then sent an army after the darkspawn.....They would lose. What make DA:O victory unconvetional is the fact that out side the spacific weakness, the enemy would not be killed.

Which is the known purpose of that bunch of hypocrites, which makes for a fundamental difference to the contrived, unknowable mess that is the crucible.

And for Lotr, detroy that ring is clearly one of the hardest things a person can do. It an unconventional victory because the enemy would be unbeatable out side of the weakness. 

The same applies here, and while yes, there is the temptation of it persuading people to clutch to it, the condition of how to deal with it is still very well known. Of course, Smeagol was indeed the hero of the day biting off Frodo's finger and accidentally dropping into Mt Doom, but the point still stands.
And if the Eagles, much less the valar, could be bothered to help out like they did in the First Age the whole business would be a fairly simple affair, but that is another topic altogether.

ME3 is the same concept. The crucible effects the weakness of the reapers. It a victory by attacking the weakness of the reapers.

"Weakness" or "welcome convenience" for them: two of the three ends can be interpreted to further the Reapers' goals - fulfilling an utopia of their preferrence, succession of its controller-unit - and Red by extension could be the Reapers' way of becoming collective an heroes and taking constructs similar to them down with them for the lulz.

Overall, far less elegant simplicity than the two examples you presented.

[flanny]

JamesFaith wrote...

StrawberryRainPop wrote...

listen to what we are saying. Why not jam the reapers? We clearly now have tech to targer synthetics, why not program it to deactivate Synthetics?

Use Tactics, not brute force. Turn the Reapers strength against them.

This theory about some hidden Reapers weakness like jamming them is unrealistic. Reason is simple - Reapers fighting with galaxy billions years, which means that all significant weakness were discovered and tried to used against them long, long ago. So it's logical to assume that modern Reapres are maximally optimalised, not perfect, but surely without criticals flaws.

no that's not true at all, this cycle had prior warning, the citadel wasn't captued this cycle stands such a better chance to defeat the reapers it doesn't make sense to compare.

as for the jamming principle, it works, the one moment when cerberus aren't retarded they are able to jam their signal and replace it with their own. though bioware decided no to mention this again it could turn the war on it's head, espically if if could control the reapers too.

[StrawberryRainPop]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...

StrawberryRainPop wrote...

listen to what we are saying. Why not jam the reapers? We clearly now have tech to targer synthetics, why not program it to deactivate Synthetics?

Use Tactics, not brute force. Turn the Reapers strength against them.

This theory about some hidden Reapers weakness like jamming them is unrealistic. Reason is simple - Reapers fighting with galaxy billions years, which means that all significant weakness were discovered and tried to used against them long, long ago. So it's logical to assume that modern Reapres are maximally optimalised, not perfect, but surely without criticals flaws.

And our cycle isn't any different from the previous ones whatsoever.

also, their the crucible is just a huge Deux Ex Machina, with the excuse that "conventional victory isnt possible"

Hell, You MIGHT AS WELL, have the writers come out, and say "hey, we dont know how to end it, so heres a plot device and 3 choices we think are neutral enough. Oh, and your choices and EMS has no real effect"

[StrawberryRainPop]

sth128 wrote...

StrawberryRainPop wrote...

hahaha....show me several instances of Ants killing humans. 

Ok right here.

You may not know this, but fire ants are in fact taking over large swaths of land in several American states as well as around the world. Scientists are trying to eliminate entire colonies using parasitic flies.

Show me ants with technlogy.

Read up on ant colony structures.

You may not consider the intricate tunnels "technology", but that's only because we have far more advanced tools. Ants, along with termites and other insects, have developed colonies with central air conditioning via complex structures and design.

Ants "farm" moss for food, gather specific resources to achieve specific goals. During a flood, they bury specific entrances to protect the brood. Certain ants manipulate their genetic makeup to fulfill specific purpose (ie. worker, warrior, new queen, etc.)

THE FACT that humans can build ships the size that can match a small reaper, well, i dont see ants building any devices.

That's because you know nothing of ants. Like I said above, their colonies are in fact extremely complex. Similarly, termite colonies have been closely studied by scientists because they have certain qualities that can be applied to human buildings.

They run amok without technolgy, and are a single race, like the protheans.

SO NO, your analogy fails.

No. Your understanding of the natural world is extremely lacking. You think all ants are a single race, when in fact there are many species of ants.

ps. Your understanding of Protheans is lacking too. Protheans is an intergalactic empire composed of several space-faring races.

So....just like Humans have different races? Chinese, Italian, ETC?

Sure, buildings, but structures to attack?

Also, why use ants as an example? An ant is considerably smaller than how a human/turian ship is to a reaper.

So no, an ant compared to a Human, is not the same as a Human to a Reaper. For one, you are forgetting, we united a galaxy, and have held back the reapers long enought.

ALSO, lets just stick with the canon ending for a while here, were able to come up with a device to kill all the reapers. So now, i doubt the ANTS have a device or plan to target all humans.

[sth128]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

You realize that ants have zero technology and a severely lower awareness level, right? A better analogy is if the Reapers tried killing cavemen or pre-spaceflight civilizations like the Yahg.

A better analogy for the Reaper conflict is if the Reapers tried killing cavemen? And you call my analogy bad?

For "zero technology", read my long post above about ant and termite colonies.

As for "severely lower awareness level", what was it that Sovereign said, hmm... Oh yes: "There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine. I am beyond your comprehension".

I think a human can safely say to an ant that his level existence is somewhat beyond their understanding, no?

[Kel212]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Kel212 wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Kel212 wrote...

Is your issue with the writing in the ending or throughout the entire game? Because having a conventional victory effectively nullifies most of the game...

Wait, what?

Having the war assets we spent 30 hours collecting and additional hours improving via the multiplayer mean something nullifies most of the game?

As the current game stands, Mars and Thessia are solely focussed on the Crucible, aka, your non-conventional weapon, and the search for the Catalyst and help for the Crucible permeates almost every other mission too. 

You also recruit your allies to your cause because you have the 'superweapon'. Without the Crucible, the Turians might say 'why not liberate Palaven first?' 

I'm saying that if a conventional victory were to be possible and satisfying, it would require a total re-write of ME3. The Crucible may be an example of bad writing, but so is a broken promise. Having half the game revolve around the Crucible only to not need it in the end is a massive broken promise. 

Or you know, change the function of the crucible to something like weakening the Reapers, so that even after using it we still need a sufficient EMS to win.

I'd probably find that more satisfying.

And yet some people would still call it a deus ex machina or a mcguffin, just because it's introduced in ME3 and not earlier. 

[T-Bone665]

Conventional victory is impossible without any other deus ex machina. Deactivating Reaper shields or jamming them is just as cheap as the Crucible, maybe even cheaper because it offers less possibilities. And even then, i wouldn't call this a conventional victory. You can hate the ending and the writers all you want, but good end evil fighting it out in one epic battle is not exactly a stroke of genius either.

Modifié par T-Bone665, 26 juillet 2012 - 02:46 .

[JamesFaith]

flanny wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...

StrawberryRainPop wrote...

listen to what we are saying. Why not jam the reapers? We clearly now have tech to targer synthetics, why not program it to deactivate Synthetics?

Use Tactics, not brute force. Turn the Reapers strength against them.

This theory about some hidden Reapers weakness like jamming them is unrealistic. Reason is simple - Reapers fighting with galaxy billions years, which means that all significant weakness were discovered and tried to used against them long, long ago. So it's logical to assume that modern Reapres are maximally optimalised, not perfect, but surely without criticals flaws.

no that's not true at all, this cycle had prior warning, the citadel wasn't captued this cycle stands such a better chance to defeat the reapers it doesn't make sense to compare.

as for the jamming principle, it works, the one moment when cerberus aren't retarded they are able to jam their signal and replace it with their own. though bioware decided no to mention this again it could turn the war on it's head, espically if if could control the reapers too.

Prior warning - there is no proof (pro or anti) that there weren't prior warning in some previsou cycle too
Citadel not captured - this is only major difference of our cycle and give us only one advantage, that we didn't lost our mobility.
Cerberus jamming - it was mention by Javik that in previous were people trying control Reapers too. It'd logical to assume that Reapers met with such tries before and were prepared on them.

And there is also one other reason why we can't get on technological level, when we can destroy Reapers - Sovereign. He was watcher of galaxy, do you think that he would let us progress too much without his intervention?

[StrawberryRainPop]

sth128 wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

You realize that ants have zero technology and a severely lower awareness level, right? A better analogy is if the Reapers tried killing cavemen or pre-spaceflight civilizations like the Yahg.

A better analogy for the Reaper conflict is if the Reapers tried killing cavemen? And you call my analogy bad?

For "zero technology", read my long post above about ant and termite colonies.

As for "severely lower awareness level", what was it that Sovereign said, hmm... Oh yes: "There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine. I am beyond your comprehension".

I think a human can safely say to an ant that his level existence is somewhat beyond their understanding, no?

When the ants are able to come up with a device that can kill the entire universe in a moment, then come back with this analogy.

[dreman9999]

Chashan wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...


]Play dragon age again. The requirement was to kill the dragon with a gray warden. Now, what would happen it's The main villian got his way and kill off all the gray wardens in fereldin and then sent an army after the darkspawn.....They would lose. What make DA:O victory unconvetional is the fact that out side the spacific weakness, the enemy would not be killed.

Which is the known purpose of that bunch of hypocrites, which makes for a fundamental difference to the contrived, unknowable mess that is the crucible.

And for Lotr, detroy that ring is clearly one of the hardest things a person can do. It an unconventional victory because the enemy would be unbeatable out side of the weakness. 

The same applies here, and while yes, there is the temptation of it persuading people to clutch to it, the condition of how to deal with it is still very well known. Of course, Smeagol was indeed the hero of the day biting off Frodo's finger and accidentally dropping into Mt Doom, but the point still stands.
And if the Eagles, much less the valar, could be bothered to help out like they did in the First Age the whole business would be a fairly simple affair, but that is another topic altogether.

ME3 is the same concept. The crucible effects the weakness of the reapers. It a victory by attacking the weakness of the reapers.

"Weakness" or "welcome convenience" for them: two of the three ends can be interpreted to further the Reapers' goals - fulfilling an utopia of their preferrence, succession of its controller-unit - and Red by extension could be the Reapers' way of becoming collective an heroes and taking constructs similar to them down with them for the lulz.

Overall, far less elegant simplicity than the two examples you presented.

1. You didn't make a point.
2. That's still an unconvetional victory and the EAGLE would not make it because they would been seen, shot down and kill by  wraths
It matters not if it was well known how, it's still not easy.
3.It's your choice to what you do with it. The reapers are machine just doing what they are progeamed to do. For a machine to stop you would need to:
physically stop it.
Tell it to do something else.
let it finish waht it's programed to do.

That's destroy, control and synthesis. This is still explioting the weakness of th ereapers which is the weakness of all machines.The goal is to stop the reapers reaping, how you do it is up to you.

[flanny]

dreman9999 wrote...

flanny wrote...

Yeah, I mean I would have been happy if Shepard in Refuse was able to disable the catalyst, so the reapers lost their higher functions and the outcome was determined by your EMS.

As for a conventional victory without the catalyst involved there were many ideas;
-the anti-reaper canon, could easily have been replicated.
-Re-developing FTL drives to allow collisions, codex even said this would take out reaper capital ships.
-fleets remembering that ships can move in 3 dimensions, hit the reapers from multiple angles and and use better maneuverability, again this is in the codex.
-employ guerilla tactics and hit and run attacks, again the codex says this was very effective.
-put more focus onto to geth and rachni, both are capable of assembling large fleets quicker then the other faces can imagine.
-recreate the Hanar defence turrents, even in low number it will require large reaper fources just to attack a single colony, delaying them while bleeding the numbers.
-using reaper tech, with this cycles head start, having already developed thanix technology will be able to recreate more reaper tech a war continues.
- rig relays to explode, if reapers can be lured in sufficient numbers why not, particularly if in terminus space.

so yes i think a conventional victory is possible with or without the catalyst

The consept of an EMP is outside your understanding then.
Also, you reason for hating the choice mak no sense. The concept of a choice needed to be made on what possible you can do with the event in hand. The virmire choice workd because of the time avalible to one ofyour crew and the vunriablity the narmady would have on landing. You drop a ship in a combat zone and it will get shot.

And with the crucible, the problem with understanding it is on you hand. Control is just a rewrite of the catalyst systems programing. It just like upgrading a network of computers via it's servers. Itjust using what is there already with te powerof the crucible to assist.
Destroy is like an emp. It effect's all tech and programing. If the programing of an AI is corrupted, it will stop working like any computer.

Added.
1.The anti reaper cannon failed. 
2.doing that is a bad idea because reapers can take the impact and we need the ships to even stand group with them.
3.The reaper are doing the "3-d tactic" as well.
4.That didn't work at all in the story.
5.Those guns were eventually over run by husk forces.
6.We are alredy doin gthat and losing.
7.You have to keep them in place to do that and we lose massive ammounts of resources doing that.

EFFECTIVE MILITARY STRENGTH it isn't ambiguous, also no i understand exactly what bioware for going for i simply recognise that they did it badly and in a way the destroys all the lore that came before it.

1. if by failed you mean that it destroyed a reaper capital ship with one shot... it was a rushed weapon and could have easily have been remade to work.
2. no they can't read the codex next time
3. no all baltes we've seen so far have been 2-D. also we have better maneuverability so the reapers can't do the same thing even if they wanted to.
4. It worked with the turians and the asari, again read the codex and you won't get confused.
5. not if the reapers can't get down to land, also as i said the tactic was to slow them down/ keep their forces concentrated/ inflict disportionate causalties on the reapers, not to stop them.
6. no they aren't no reason is given. but seeing as both forces could have challenged the reapers at their peak you'd think they'd play a bigger part.
7. yeah you'd lose resources, but so do the reapers and ours are easier to replace.

please read the codex before you respond again

[dreman9999]

StrawberryRainPop wrote...

sth128 wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

You realize that ants have zero technology and a severely lower awareness level, right? A better analogy is if the Reapers tried killing cavemen or pre-spaceflight civilizations like the Yahg.

A better analogy for the Reaper conflict is if the Reapers tried killing cavemen? And you call my analogy bad?

For "zero technology", read my long post above about ant and termite colonies.

As for "severely lower awareness level", what was it that Sovereign said, hmm... Oh yes: "There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine. I am beyond your comprehension".

I think a human can safely say to an ant that his level existence is somewhat beyond their understanding, no?

When the ants are able to come up with a device that can kill the entire universe in a moment, then come back with this analogy.

Just because you have the power to kill everything doesn't mean you have compihentions of other ways to exist.

[AresKeith]

T-Bone665 wrote...

Conventional victory is impossible without any other deus ex machina. Deactivating Reaper shields or jamming them is just as cheap as the Crucible, maybe even cheaper because it offers less possibilities. And even then, i wouldn't call this a conventional victory. You can hate the ending and the writers all you want, but good end evil fighting it out in one epic battle is not exactly a stroke of genius either.

its a Video Game, thats how it mostly turns out and sometimes less is more

Modifié par AresKeith, 26 juillet 2012 - 02:53 .

[StrawberryRainPop]

dreman9999 wrote...

StrawberryRainPop wrote...

sth128 wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

You realize that ants have zero technology and a severely lower awareness level, right? A better analogy is if the Reapers tried killing cavemen or pre-spaceflight civilizations like the Yahg.

A better analogy for the Reaper conflict is if the Reapers tried killing cavemen? And you call my analogy bad?

For "zero technology", read my long post above about ant and termite colonies.

As for "severely lower awareness level", what was it that Sovereign said, hmm... Oh yes: "There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine. I am beyond your comprehension".

I think a human can safely say to an ant that his level existence is somewhat beyond their understanding, no?

When the ants are able to come up with a device that can kill the entire universe in a moment, then come back with this analogy.

Just because you have the power to kill everything doesn't mean you have compihentions of other ways to exist.

i dont understand what you just said, but my point was, the galatic force is NOT as weak as a anAnt is to a Human. We can build and gather ships that can defeat the reapers, and while defending, come up with tech to disable synthetics. Its already feasible, and a LOT more realistic than the crucible.

[flanny]

JamesFaith wrote...

flanny wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...

StrawberryRainPop wrote...

listen to what we are saying. Why not jam the reapers? We clearly now have tech to targer synthetics, why not program it to deactivate Synthetics?

Use Tactics, not brute force. Turn the Reapers strength against them.

This theory about some hidden Reapers weakness like jamming them is unrealistic. Reason is simple - Reapers fighting with galaxy billions years, which means that all significant weakness were discovered and tried to used against them long, long ago. So it's logical to assume that modern Reapres are maximally optimalised, not perfect, but surely without criticals flaws.

no that's not true at all, this cycle had prior warning, the citadel wasn't captued this cycle stands such a better chance to defeat the reapers it doesn't make sense to compare.

as for the jamming principle, it works, the one moment when cerberus aren't retarded they are able to jam their signal and replace it with their own. though bioware decided no to mention this again it could turn the war on it's head, espically if if could control the reapers too.

Prior warning - there is no proof (pro or anti) that there weren't prior warning in some previsou cycle too
Citadel not captured - this is only major difference of our cycle and give us only one advantage, that we didn't lost our mobility.
Cerberus jamming - it was mention by Javik that in previous were people trying control Reapers too. It'd logical to assume that Reapers met with such tries before and were prepared on them.

And there is also one other reason why we can't get on technological level, when we can destroy Reapers - Sovereign. He was watcher of galaxy, do you think that he would let us progress too much without his intervention?

every cycle was started with the attack on the citadel, i consider that proof. 
the sanctuary project was working... you can't dispute this

not even sure where you're going with that last point as soveregn was very concerned, that's what forced him to team up with rachni/saren/geth...

[flanny]

StrawberryRainPop wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

StrawberryRainPop wrote...

sth128 wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

You realize that ants have zero technology and a severely lower awareness level, right? A better analogy is if the Reapers tried killing cavemen or pre-spaceflight civilizations like the Yahg.

A better analogy for the Reaper conflict is if the Reapers tried killing cavemen? And you call my analogy bad?

For "zero technology", read my long post above about ant and termite colonies.

As for "severely lower awareness level", what was it that Sovereign said, hmm... Oh yes: "There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine. I am beyond your comprehension".

I think a human can safely say to an ant that his level existence is somewhat beyond their understanding, no?

When the ants are able to come up with a device that can kill the entire universe in a moment, then come back with this analogy.

Just because you have the power to kill everything doesn't mean you have compihentions of other ways to exist.

i dont understand what you just said, but my point was, the galatic force is NOT as weak as a anAnt is to a Human. We can build and gather ships that can defeat the reapers, and while defending, come up with tech to disable synthetics. Its already feasible, and a LOT more realistic than the crucible.

agreed, the codex shows, 4 dreadnoughts are a match for a capital ship, and upgraded cruisers are a matach for destroyers. 

[Conniving_Eagle]

JamesFaith wrote...

Prior warning - there is no proof (pro or anti) that there weren't prior warning in some previsou cycle too
Citadel not captured - this is only major difference of our cycle and give us only one advantage, that we didn't lost our mobility.
Cerberus jamming - it was mention by Javik that in previous were people trying control Reapers too. It'd logical to assume that Reapers met with such tries before and were prepared on them.

And there is also one other reason why we can't get on technological level, when we can destroy Reapers - Sovereign. He was watcher of galaxy, do you think that he would let us progress too much without his intervention?

I'd say there is pretty solid evidence that previous cycles didn't have a prior warning. The Reapers poured through the Citadel, killed the galaxy's leaders, obtained vital information on the galaxy, and shut down all the relays. It didn't work this time because the Protheans managed to disrupt Reaper signal sent out to the Keepers.

The Citadel not being captured gives us an advantage, but it puts the Reapers at a critical disadvantage as well.

The Keepers failed to respond who knows how long ago. Sovereign had to manually reactivate the Citadel. Formulating a plan and creating necessary allies to do so could have taken any number of years/decades/centuries. As Vigil said, Sovereign is acting out of overconfidence or desperation.

Modifié par Conniving_Eagle, 26 juillet 2012 - 03:00 .

[StrawberryRainPop]

flanny wrote...

StrawberryRainPop wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

StrawberryRainPop wrote...

sth128 wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

You realize that ants have zero technology and a severely lower awareness level, right? A better analogy is if the Reapers tried killing cavemen or pre-spaceflight civilizations like the Yahg.

A better analogy for the Reaper conflict is if the Reapers tried killing cavemen? And you call my analogy bad?

For "zero technology", read my long post above about ant and termite colonies.

As for "severely lower awareness level", what was it that Sovereign said, hmm... Oh yes: "There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine. I am beyond your comprehension".

I think a human can safely say to an ant that his level existence is somewhat beyond their understanding, no?

When the ants are able to come up with a device that can kill the entire universe in a moment, then come back with this analogy.

Just because you have the power to kill everything doesn't mean you have compihentions of other ways to exist.

i dont understand what you just said, but my point was, the galatic force is NOT as weak as a anAnt is to a Human. We can build and gather ships that can defeat the reapers, and while defending, come up with tech to disable synthetics. Its already feasible, and a LOT more realistic than the crucible.

agreed, the codex shows, 4 dreadnoughts are a match for a capital ship, and upgraded cruisers are a matach for destroyers. 

also, the reapers are EXTREMLY SLOW.

If you lure a few away, bombers can take them out, and a targeted laser can call in a nuke. We have seen it time and time again, they are NOT gods....yes, in the first, that reaper was massive, but in ME3, not all are like that, and our military strenth held them off admirably. So more than enough time to find even MORE weaknesses.

[dreman9999]

flanny wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

flanny wrote...

Yeah, I mean I would have been happy if Shepard in Refuse was able to disable the catalyst, so the reapers lost their higher functions and the outcome was determined by your EMS.

As for a conventional victory without the catalyst involved there were many ideas;
-the anti-reaper canon, could easily have been replicated.
-Re-developing FTL drives to allow collisions, codex even said this would take out reaper capital ships.
-fleets remembering that ships can move in 3 dimensions, hit the reapers from multiple angles and and use better maneuverability, again this is in the codex.
-employ guerilla tactics and hit and run attacks, again the codex says this was very effective.
-put more focus onto to geth and rachni, both are capable of assembling large fleets quicker then the other faces can imagine.
-recreate the Hanar defence turrents, even in low number it will require large reaper fources just to attack a single colony, delaying them while bleeding the numbers.
-using reaper tech, with this cycles head start, having already developed thanix technology will be able to recreate more reaper tech a war continues.
- rig relays to explode, if reapers can be lured in sufficient numbers why not, particularly if in terminus space.

so yes i think a conventional victory is possible with or without the catalyst

The consept of an EMP is outside your understanding then.
Also, you reason for hating the choice mak no sense. The concept of a choice needed to be made on what possible you can do with the event in hand. The virmire choice workd because of the time avalible to one ofyour crew and the vunriablity the narmady would have on landing. You drop a ship in a combat zone and it will get shot.

And with the crucible, the problem with understanding it is on you hand. Control is just a rewrite of the catalyst systems programing. It just like upgrading a network of computers via it's servers. Itjust using what is there already with te powerof the crucible to assist.
Destroy is like an emp. It effect's all tech and programing. If the programing of an AI is corrupted, it will stop working like any computer.

Added.
1.The anti reaper cannon failed. 
2.doing that is a bad idea because reapers can take the impact and we need the ships to even stand group with them.
3.The reaper are doing the "3-d tactic" as well.
4.That didn't work at all in the story.
5.Those guns were eventually over run by husk forces.
6.We are alredy doin gthat and losing.
7.You have to keep them in place to do that and we lose massive ammounts of resources doing that.

EFFECTIVE MILITARY STRENGTH it isn't ambiguous, also no i understand exactly what bioware for going for i simply recognise that they did it badly and in a way the destroys all the lore that came before it.

1. if by failed you mean that it destroyed a reaper capital ship with one shot... it was a rushed weapon and could have easily have been remade to work.
2. no they can't read the codex next time
3. no all baltes we've seen so far have been 2-D. also we have better maneuverability so the reapers can't do the same thing even if they wanted to.
4. It worked with the turians and the asari, again read the codex and you won't get confused.
5. not if the reapers can't get down to land, also as i said the tactic was to slow them down/ keep their forces concentrated/ inflict disportionate causalties on the reapers, not to stop them.
6. no they aren't no reason is given. but seeing as both forces could have challenged the reapers at their peak you'd think they'd play a bigger part.
7. yeah you'd lose resources, but so do the reapers and ours are easier to replace.

please read the codex before you respond again

Your missing the point that reaper are not going let a weakness in their tactic be left open to attacked over and over.
1. THe gun takes out a capitla ship. Guese what? The reeaper will drop husk force in mass on the gun till it's destoryied.
2.Yes, they can take the blow.
3.In those cut scene you never given the full consept of what directioin any one is attacking. There is no up of down in space. You really can look at acut scene and tell.
4.No, it did not. The asari were blast to hell and back. The turian eventually were pushed back to there home world. The reapers addapted to all tactics.
5.The reapers don't need to land to deploy hush forces. They acn shot them on a planet or a facilaty from space.
6.Read the codex. IT STATES EVERY SHIP IS ALREADY USING THANIX WEAPONS.
7.No , the reaper lose nothing but a few ships. They need no recources. We would have have a fleet of ships keep them locked in the system till the mass relay is blown up. We would lose morein what ever victory that would come from it.

[The Twilight God]

Reaper fleet = 10,000 (each of which are more powerful than any single allied ship)

Allied fleet = 1,000 warships

These aren't actual numbers, of course, but the reaper simply outgunned and outnumbered us. Period. If conventional victory was possible it would undermine the entire plot just like the last 10 minutes.

http://www.youtube.c...yvUblf28#t=467s

There are different ways to end it unconventionally than a magical super convenient superweapon that shows up at the right time to do exactly what the situation calls for, but Bioware clearly lacks for creativity. I thought we'd use the Citadel Relay to go to their darkspace hideaway and discover something. That's how relays work. There has to be something on the other end where the reapers were waiting, but whatever....

[sth128]

StrawberryRainPop wrote...

So....just like Humans have different races? Chinese, Italian, ETC?

No. Please go review basic elementary biology on classification from domain to species.

Sure, buildings, but structures to attack?

Jaws, venom, disease, etc. (though I don't think ants carry any disease that affect humans)

Also, why use ants as an example? An ant is considerably smaller than how a human/turian ship is to a reaper.

Really? In your mind the validity of an analogy hinges on the exact same ratio in size?

Well the average human is 6 feet (about 1.8 meters) tall. The Reapers are 2 kilometers in length. So standing before Sovereign, a human appears like an ant. A human would be crushed by Sovereign like an ant. Not to mention my analogy involves human and ant, not human and ant colony, which can grow to be taller than a human.

you are forgetting, we united a galaxy, and have held back the reapers long enought.

An ant colony is united. And as I said above, ants are holding their territory in many places around the world and causing havoc. We are actively devising ways to eliminate ant colonies.

ALSO, lets just stick with the canon ending for a while here, were able to come up with a device to kill all the reapers.

No we didn't, some race in a cycle far before ours came up with a plan to do so. All we did was dig up the plans Protheans left and built a giant device with no real understanding of what it did.

And the Crucible is not the "conventional victory". It is a giant deus ex machina that the OP created a thread to argue AGAINST. Do you even know why you are arguing against me? BUILDING THE CRUCIBLE IS NOT A CONVENTIONAL VICTORY!

In fact, ANY plans where we suddenly create or discover some ancient giant cannon or super weapon would be a GIANT MCGUFFIN PLOT DEVICE and voids the "conventional victory" concept.

A conventional victory would be military victory through strength of arms or strategy NOT relying on some magical weapon or device.

Modifié par sth128, 26 juillet 2012 - 03:03 .