360 réponses à ce sujet

[StrawberryRainPop]

The Twilight God wrote...

Reaper fleet = 10,000 (each of which are more powerful than any single allied ship)

Allied fleet = 1,000 warships

These aren't actual numbers, of course, but the reaper simply outgunned and outnumbered us. Period. If conventional victory was possible it would undermine the entire plot just like the last 10 minutes.

http://www.youtube.c...yvUblf28#t=467s

There are different ways to end it unconventionally than a magical super convenient superweapon that shows up at the right time to do exactly what the situation calls for, but Bioware clearly lacks for creativity. I thought we'd use the Citadel Relay to go to their darkspace hideaway and discover something. That's how relays work. There has to be something on the other end where the reapers were waiting, but whatever....

Do you consider have a device that deactivates all synthetics, and then letting brute force like grunts, tear the reapers apart, conventional?

I call that tactics. The Crucible is not an unconventional victory either, its poor writing, in a terrible Deux Ex Machina.

[Conniving_Eagle]

The Twilight God wrote...

Reaper fleet = 10,000 (each of which are more powerful than any single allied ship)

You completely pulled this out of your ass.

[flanny]

dreman9999 wrote...

flanny wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

flanny wrote...

Yeah, I mean I would have been happy if Shepard in Refuse was able to disable the catalyst, so the reapers lost their higher functions and the outcome was determined by your EMS.

As for a conventional victory without the catalyst involved there were many ideas;
-the anti-reaper canon, could easily have been replicated.
-Re-developing FTL drives to allow collisions, codex even said this would take out reaper capital ships.
-fleets remembering that ships can move in 3 dimensions, hit the reapers from multiple angles and and use better maneuverability, again this is in the codex.
-employ guerilla tactics and hit and run attacks, again the codex says this was very effective.
-put more focus onto to geth and rachni, both are capable of assembling large fleets quicker then the other faces can imagine.
-recreate the Hanar defence turrents, even in low number it will require large reaper fources just to attack a single colony, delaying them while bleeding the numbers.
-using reaper tech, with this cycles head start, having already developed thanix technology will be able to recreate more reaper tech a war continues.
- rig relays to explode, if reapers can be lured in sufficient numbers why not, particularly if in terminus space.

so yes i think a conventional victory is possible with or without the catalyst

The consept of an EMP is outside your understanding then.
Also, you reason for hating the choice mak no sense. The concept of a choice needed to be made on what possible you can do with the event in hand. The virmire choice workd because of the time avalible to one ofyour crew and the vunriablity the narmady would have on landing. You drop a ship in a combat zone and it will get shot.

And with the crucible, the problem with understanding it is on you hand. Control is just a rewrite of the catalyst systems programing. It just like upgrading a network of computers via it's servers. Itjust using what is there already with te powerof the crucible to assist.
Destroy is like an emp. It effect's all tech and programing. If the programing of an AI is corrupted, it will stop working like any computer.

Added.
1.The anti reaper cannon failed. 
2.doing that is a bad idea because reapers can take the impact and we need the ships to even stand group with them.
3.The reaper are doing the "3-d tactic" as well.
4.That didn't work at all in the story.
5.Those guns were eventually over run by husk forces.
6.We are alredy doin gthat and losing.
7.You have to keep them in place to do that and we lose massive ammounts of resources doing that.

EFFECTIVE MILITARY STRENGTH it isn't ambiguous, also no i understand exactly what bioware for going for i simply recognise that they did it badly and in a way the destroys all the lore that came before it.

1. if by failed you mean that it destroyed a reaper capital ship with one shot... it was a rushed weapon and could have easily have been remade to work.
2. no they can't read the codex next time
3. no all baltes we've seen so far have been 2-D. also we have better maneuverability so the reapers can't do the same thing even if they wanted to.
4. It worked with the turians and the asari, again read the codex and you won't get confused.
5. not if the reapers can't get down to land, also as i said the tactic was to slow them down/ keep their forces concentrated/ inflict disportionate causalties on the reapers, not to stop them.
6. no they aren't no reason is given. but seeing as both forces could have challenged the reapers at their peak you'd think they'd play a bigger part.
7. yeah you'd lose resources, but so do the reapers and ours are easier to replace.

please read the codex before you respond again

Your missing the point that reaper are not going let a weakness in their tactic be left open to attacked over and over.
1. THe gun takes out a capitla ship. Guese what? The reeaper will drop husk force in mass on the gun till it's destoryied.
2.Yes, they can take the blow.
3.In those cut scene you never given the full consept of what directioin any one is attacking. There is no up of down in space. You really can look at acut scene and tell.
4.No, it did not. The asari were blast to hell and back. The turian eventually were pushed back to there home world. The reapers addapted to all tactics.
5.The reapers don't need to land to deploy hush forces. They acn shot them on a planet or a facilaty from space.
6.Read the codex. IT STATES EVERY SHIP IS ALREADY USING THANIX WEAPONS.
7.No , the reaper lose nothing but a few ships. They need no recources. We would have have a fleet of ships keep them locked in the system till the mass relay is blown up. We would lose morein what ever victory that would come from it.

i said read the codex before replying, you obviously haven't meaning i can't take what your saying seriously.

[T-Bone665]

1. The cannon is a 37 million year old mass accelerator gun. Exactly the technology we use now. It is just massive in size - and also broken. Nowhere does it say the gun was rushed.
2. FTL ramming might work. Hard to tell how the Reapers would react though.
3. All battles are in 2D because it's easier to show in cutscenes. Also, it might not be an advantage to hit ships from multiple sides.
4. Even with hit and run tactics, Palaven and Thessia fell quickly. If you can't protect your homebases, that tactic will not win a war.
5. Don't remember the Hanar guns clearly - but the Reapers don't need to land. They could just bombard the planet from a distance.
6. We are using Thanix weapons and still losing. Even if we don't see blue beams in cutscenes.
7. The only mass relay that ever was destroyed was the Alpha Relay. It was a special overclocked Relay that was hit with a slow moving asteroid on which was a Reaper artifact. Before that, the Relays were believed to be indestructible. You cant't just shoot them, they are Quantum shielded. Also: Maybe Reapers can outrun the blast, seeing as they have the most powerful FTL drives in existence.

[Chashan]

1. You didn't make a point.

Why, it is still the hero's task to slay the dragon and thus ending the immediate threat. That the player's avatar is railroaded into joining a bunch of lunatics which also happens to be a direct pre-requirement for the slaying to work - which might also be connected to Morrigan's offer actually working - is of no consequence as to the clear-cut business going down in the end.

Compare this to the awkward abstract construct that the crucible is, with noone having an idea what it does right up until the end etc. ...

2. That's still an unconvetional victory and the EAGLE would not make it because they would been seen, shot down and kill by wraths

Not acknowledging Arda's gods, the valar, who are known to have responded to the pleas of the peoples of the First Age as brought to them in their homestead of Valinor by Earendil against the threatening total victory of the first Dark Lord Melkor, Sauron's boss, eh?

And the Eagles are bossier than you make them out to be, and it is likely that they outright denied carrying the One Ring due to the temptations that come along with it rather than the Dark Lord's anti-air division being the priority concern. And possibly because they are the long arm of Manwe, one of the Valar, who have had no wish for direct intervention in Middle Earth anymore after the cataclysmic conclusion of the First Age that saw Beleriand drowned in the waves.

[Kel212]

flanny wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

flanny wrote...

Yeah, I mean I would have been happy if Shepard in Refuse was able to disable the catalyst, so the reapers lost their higher functions and the outcome was determined by your EMS.

As for a conventional victory without the catalyst involved there were many ideas;
-the anti-reaper canon, could easily have been replicated.
-Re-developing FTL drives to allow collisions, codex even said this would take out reaper capital ships.
-fleets remembering that ships can move in 3 dimensions, hit the reapers from multiple angles and and use better maneuverability, again this is in the codex.
-employ guerilla tactics and hit and run attacks, again the codex says this was very effective.
-put more focus onto to geth and rachni, both are capable of assembling large fleets quicker then the other faces can imagine.
-recreate the Hanar defence turrents, even in low number it will require large reaper fources just to attack a single colony, delaying them while bleeding the numbers.
-using reaper tech, with this cycles head start, having already developed thanix technology will be able to recreate more reaper tech a war continues.
- rig relays to explode, if reapers can be lured in sufficient numbers why not, particularly if in terminus space.

so yes i think a conventional victory is possible with or without the catalyst

The consept of an EMP is outside your understanding then.
Also, you reason for hating the choice mak no sense. The concept of a choice needed to be made on what possible you can do with the event in hand. The virmire choice workd because of the time avalible to one ofyour crew and the vunriablity the narmady would have on landing. You drop a ship in a combat zone and it will get shot.

And with the crucible, the problem with understanding it is on you hand. Control is just a rewrite of the catalyst systems programing. It just like upgrading a network of computers via it's servers. Itjust using what is there already with te powerof the crucible to assist.
Destroy is like an emp. It effect's all tech and programing. If the programing of an AI is corrupted, it will stop working like any computer.

Added.
1.The anti reaper cannon failed. 
2.doing that is a bad idea because reapers can take the impact and we need the ships to even stand group with them.
3.The reaper are doing the "3-d tactic" as well.
4.That didn't work at all in the story.
5.Those guns were eventually over run by husk forces.
6.We are alredy doin gthat and losing.
7.You have to keep them in place to do that and we lose massive ammounts of resources doing that.

EFFECTIVE MILITARY STRENGTH it isn't ambiguous, also no i understand exactly what bioware for going for i simply recognise that they did it badly and in a way the destroys all the lore that came before it.

1. if by failed you mean that it destroyed a reaper capital ship with one shot... it was a rushed weapon and could have easily have been remade to work.
2. no they can't read the codex next time
3. no all baltes we've seen so far have been 2-D. also we have better maneuverability so the reapers can't do the same thing even if they wanted to.
4. It worked with the turians and the asari, again read the codex and you won't get confused.
5. not if the reapers can't get down to land, also as i said the tactic was to slow them down/ keep their forces concentrated/ inflict disportionate causalties on the reapers, not to stop them.
6. no they aren't no reason is given. but seeing as both forces could have challenged the reapers at their peak you'd think they'd play a bigger part.
7. yeah you'd lose resources, but so do the reapers and ours are easier to replace.

please read the codex before you respond again

Just gonna weigh in
1. There isn't enough information on the defunct weapon - how long it took to build, how many shots it could fire at once, or how successful it was. We know for sure it only killed one Reaper.

3. On the maneuverability thing here. In ME1 Joker says 'that ship Sovereign just pulled a turn which would have sheared one of our ships in half', and they also have the Oculi to combat fighters get in close to dreadnoughts. 
Also, Bioware have stated that they opted for 2d battles in cutscenes only because it was more familiar to casual gamers. I think its safe to assume most battles would take place in 3d 

4. The Asari did well, but still nearly lost Thessia. By the end of the game, the Reapers have the Citadel, meaning they control the Mass Relay Network. By this point, guerrilla warfare would have ended much as Javik's did.

I agree on all your other points though. I'm assuming the reference to Thanix Missiles means they trump Thanix cannons for damage. 

[StrawberryRainPop]

sth128 wrote...

StrawberryRainPop wrote...

So....just like Humans have different races? Chinese, Italian, ETC?

No. Please go review basic elementary biology on classification from domain to species.

Sure, buildings, but structures to attack?

Jaws, venom, disease, etc. (though I don't think ants carry any disease that affect humans)

Also, why use ants as an example? An ant is considerably smaller than how a human/turian ship is to a reaper.

Really? In your mind the validity of an analogy hinges on the exact same ratio in size?

Well the average human is 6 feet (about 1.8 meters) tall. The Reapers are 2 kilometers in length. So standing before Sovereign, a human appears like an ant. A human would be crushed by Sovereign like an ant. Not to mention my analogy involves human and ant, not human and ant colony, which can grow to be taller than a human.

you are forgetting, we united a galaxy, and have held back the reapers long enought.

An ant colony is united. And as I said above, ants are holding their territory in many places around the world and causing havoc. We are actively devising ways to eliminate ant colonies.

ALSO, lets just stick with the canon ending for a while here, were able to come up with a device to kill all the reapers.

No we didn't, some race in a cycle far before ours came up with a plan to do so. All we did was dig up the plans Protheans left and built a giant device with no real understanding of what it did.

And the Crucible is not the "conventional victory". It is a giant deus ex machina that the OP created a thread to argue AGAINST. Do you even know why you are arguing against me? BUILDING THE CRUCIBLE IS NOT A CONVENTIONAL VICTORY!

In fact, ANY plans where we suddenly create or discover some ancient giant cannon or super weapon would be a GIANT MCGUFFIN PLOT DEVICE and voids the "conventional victory" concept.

A conventional victory would be military victory through strength of arms or strategy NOT relying on some magical weapon or device.

actually, my suggestion from the OP, is tactics, specifically, a device to disable synthetics, leaving the reapers open to destroy.

We lack in numbers SURE, but stop comapring the ants, we can build spaceships that can rival Reapers, ants CANT build ships to match a human's size. Hell, want to compare more? Flamethrowers. The ant wouldnt even be able to get close to a human who is actually defending. The fact that we can destroy reapers even when they are attacking at their full, makes your entire analogy pointless.

All those cases of deaths were when the humans were not prepared, and not planning an attack.

[sth128]

StrawberryRainPop wrote...

When the ants are able to come up with a device that can kill the entire universe in a moment, then come back with this analogy.

When you realize that

a) Humans did not come up with the Crucible
The Crucible is not a conventional victory
c) The Crucible did not "kill the entire universe"
d) Understand the difference between "galaxy" and "universe"

then come back to this thread.

[dreman9999]

flanny wrote...

StrawberryRainPop wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

StrawberryRainPop wrote...

sth128 wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

You realize that ants have zero technology and a severely lower awareness level, right? A better analogy is if the Reapers tried killing cavemen or pre-spaceflight civilizations like the Yahg.

A better analogy for the Reaper conflict is if the Reapers tried killing cavemen? And you call my analogy bad?

For "zero technology", read my long post above about ant and termite colonies.

As for "severely lower awareness level", what was it that Sovereign said, hmm... Oh yes: "There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine. I am beyond your comprehension".

I think a human can safely say to an ant that his level existence is somewhat beyond their understanding, no?

When the ants are able to come up with a device that can kill the entire universe in a moment, then come back with this analogy.

Just because you have the power to kill everything doesn't mean you have compihentions of other ways to exist.

i dont understand what you just said, but my point was, the galatic force is NOT as weak as a anAnt is to a Human. We can build and gather ships that can defeat the reapers, and while defending, come up with tech to disable synthetics. Its already feasible, and a LOT more realistic than the crucible.

agreed, the codex shows, 4 dreadnoughts are a match for a capital ship, and upgraded cruisers are a matach for destroyers. 

1.The codex does say an upgraded cruiser is a matach of a destoryer.
2. They don't use the capital ships and destroyors alone. The husk force is what truly makes them unstoppable.
Aka... The Oculus 

http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Oculus 

This one uint is made in massive swarms, destory figher and in coming progectiles, and dive into our shipand blow them up form the insideout.

It's not just the capital ships anddestroyies we are facing in space.

Modifié par dreman9999, 26 juillet 2012 - 03:12 .

[dreman9999]

StrawberryRainPop wrote...

sth128 wrote...

StrawberryRainPop wrote...

So....just like Humans have different races? Chinese, Italian, ETC?

No. Please go review basic elementary biology on classification from domain to species.

Sure, buildings, but structures to attack?

Jaws, venom, disease, etc. (though I don't think ants carry any disease that affect humans)

Also, why use ants as an example? An ant is considerably smaller than how a human/turian ship is to a reaper.

Really? In your mind the validity of an analogy hinges on the exact same ratio in size?

Well the average human is 6 feet (about 1.8 meters) tall. The Reapers are 2 kilometers in length. So standing before Sovereign, a human appears like an ant. A human would be crushed by Sovereign like an ant. Not to mention my analogy involves human and ant, not human and ant colony, which can grow to be taller than a human.

you are forgetting, we united a galaxy, and have held back the reapers long enought.

An ant colony is united. And as I said above, ants are holding their territory in many places around the world and causing havoc. We are actively devising ways to eliminate ant colonies.

ALSO, lets just stick with the canon ending for a while here, were able to come up with a device to kill all the reapers.

No we didn't, some race in a cycle far before ours came up with a plan to do so. All we did was dig up the plans Protheans left and built a giant device with no real understanding of what it did.

And the Crucible is not the "conventional victory". It is a giant deus ex machina that the OP created a thread to argue AGAINST. Do you even know why you are arguing against me? BUILDING THE CRUCIBLE IS NOT A CONVENTIONAL VICTORY!

In fact, ANY plans where we suddenly create or discover some ancient giant cannon or super weapon would be a GIANT MCGUFFIN PLOT DEVICE and voids the "conventional victory" concept.

A conventional victory would be military victory through strength of arms or strategy NOT relying on some magical weapon or device.

actually, my suggestion from the OP, is tactics, specifically, a device to disable synthetics, leaving the reapers open to destroy.

We lack in numbers SURE, but stop comapring the ants, we can build spaceships that can rival Reapers, ants CANT build ships to match a human's size. Hell, want to compare more? Flamethrowers. The ant wouldnt even be able to get close to a human who is actually defending. The fact that we can destroy reapers even when they are attacking at their full, makes your entire analogy pointless.

All those cases of deaths were when the humans were not prepared, and not planning an attack.

Our ships don't rival the reapers.

[sth128]

StrawberryRainPop wrote...

actually, my suggestion from the OP, is tactics, specifically, a device to disable synthetics, leaving the reapers open to destroy.

Did you even read my post or did you just quote it for fun?

Your suggestion for a "conventional victory" is to develop a "device" that will result in a "controlled" shutdown of ALL REAPERS. No wait, you said "all synthetics", not distinguishing between say, Geth and Reapers.

Tell me, does your magical device look like a giant microphone, docks to the Citadel, and sends out a red bubble across the galaxy?

You just suggested "conventional victory" using a deus ex machina device that does pretty much EXACTLY what the Crucible does. Did you skip over the part where I said "a conventional victory does not rely on a super magical device"?

[dreman9999]

flanny wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

flanny wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

flanny wrote...

Yeah, I mean I would have been happy if Shepard in Refuse was able to disable the catalyst, so the reapers lost their higher functions and the outcome was determined by your EMS.

As for a conventional victory without the catalyst involved there were many ideas;
-the anti-reaper canon, could easily have been replicated.
-Re-developing FTL drives to allow collisions, codex even said this would take out reaper capital ships.
-fleets remembering that ships can move in 3 dimensions, hit the reapers from multiple angles and and use better maneuverability, again this is in the codex.
-employ guerilla tactics and hit and run attacks, again the codex says this was very effective.
-put more focus onto to geth and rachni, both are capable of assembling large fleets quicker then the other faces can imagine.
-recreate the Hanar defence turrents, even in low number it will require large reaper fources just to attack a single colony, delaying them while bleeding the numbers.
-using reaper tech, with this cycles head start, having already developed thanix technology will be able to recreate more reaper tech a war continues.
- rig relays to explode, if reapers can be lured in sufficient numbers why not, particularly if in terminus space.

so yes i think a conventional victory is possible with or without the catalyst

The consept of an EMP is outside your understanding then.
Also, you reason for hating the choice mak no sense. The concept of a choice needed to be made on what possible you can do with the event in hand. The virmire choice workd because of the time avalible to one ofyour crew and the vunriablity the narmady would have on landing. You drop a ship in a combat zone and it will get shot.

And with the crucible, the problem with understanding it is on you hand. Control is just a rewrite of the catalyst systems programing. It just like upgrading a network of computers via it's servers. Itjust using what is there already with te powerof the crucible to assist.
Destroy is like an emp. It effect's all tech and programing. If the programing of an AI is corrupted, it will stop working like any computer.

Added.
1.The anti reaper cannon failed. 
2.doing that is a bad idea because reapers can take the impact and we need the ships to even stand group with them.
3.The reaper are doing the "3-d tactic" as well.
4.That didn't work at all in the story.
5.Those guns were eventually over run by husk forces.
6.We are alredy doin gthat and losing.
7.You have to keep them in place to do that and we lose massive ammounts of resources doing that.

EFFECTIVE MILITARY STRENGTH it isn't ambiguous, also no i understand exactly what bioware for going for i simply recognise that they did it badly and in a way the destroys all the lore that came before it.

1. if by failed you mean that it destroyed a reaper capital ship with one shot... it was a rushed weapon and could have easily have been remade to work.
2. no they can't read the codex next time
3. no all baltes we've seen so far have been 2-D. also we have better maneuverability so the reapers can't do the same thing even if they wanted to.
4. It worked with the turians and the asari, again read the codex and you won't get confused.
5. not if the reapers can't get down to land, also as i said the tactic was to slow them down/ keep their forces concentrated/ inflict disportionate causalties on the reapers, not to stop them.
6. no they aren't no reason is given. but seeing as both forces could have challenged the reapers at their peak you'd think they'd play a bigger part.
7. yeah you'd lose resources, but so do the reapers and ours are easier to replace.

please read the codex before you respond again

Your missing the point that reaper are not going let a weakness in their tactic be left open to attacked over and over.
1. THe gun takes out a capitla ship. Guese what? The reeaper will drop husk force in mass on the gun till it's destoryied.
2.Yes, they can take the blow.
3.In those cut scene you never given the full consept of what directioin any one is attacking. There is no up of down in space. You really can look at acut scene and tell.
4.No, it did not. The asari were blast to hell and back. The turian eventually were pushed back to there home world. The reapers addapted to all tactics.
5.The reapers don't need to land to deploy hush forces. They acn shot them on a planet or a facilaty from space.
6.Read the codex. IT STATES EVERY SHIP IS ALREADY USING THANIX WEAPONS.
7.No , the reaper lose nothing but a few ships. They need no recources. We would have have a fleet of ships keep them locked in the system till the mass relay is blown up. We would lose morein what ever victory that would come from it.

i said read the codex before replying, you obviously haven't meaning i can't take what your saying seriously.

I did. The awnser stays the same. We can't win.

[StrawberryRainPop]

sth128 wrote...

StrawberryRainPop wrote...

When the ants are able to come up with a device that can kill the entire universe in a moment, then come back with this analogy.

When you realize that

a) Humans did not come up with the Crucible
The Crucible is not a conventional victory
c) The Crucible did not "kill the entire universe"
d) Understand the difference between "galaxy" and "universe"

then come back to this thread.

Listen,

Ants, with ALL their might, with ALL their combined unity, against a couple of humans with flamethrowers.

Not even a close fight. Stop making this ****** poor comparison. Ants are strictly melee, and anything other than that, humans can wear protection against any venom, it wouldnt even hit the range anyway.

So no. It is possible in ME3 for the galatic force to defeat several reapers when wokring togteher.

ANTS, have NO Chance.

Come back when you are done with this crappy analogy. Unless you can come up with a plan, of how ants, can defeat humans defending on full force with all their technolgy. Hell, flamethrowers and protection is enough.

[StrawberryRainPop]

sth128 wrote...

StrawberryRainPop wrote...

actually, my suggestion from the OP, is tactics, specifically, a device to disable synthetics, leaving the reapers open to destroy.

Did you even read my post or did you just quote it for fun?

Your suggestion for a "conventional victory" is to develop a "device" that will result in a "controlled" shutdown of ALL REAPERS. No wait, you said "all synthetics", not distinguishing between say, Geth and Reapers.

Tell me, does your magical device look like a giant microphone, docks to the Citadel, and sends out a red bubble across the galaxy?

You just suggested "conventional victory" using a deus ex machina device that does pretty much EXACTLY what the Crucible does. Did you skip over the part where I said "a conventional victory does not rely on a super magical device"?

Shut down all synthetics, geth too, perhaps it starts with a small radius, OF COURSE not the entire galaxy victory, but it is a weapon to disable Reapers in the battlefield, leaving us to pick them apart.

How in the world is this magical? Really? You just trolling now? Messing with the enemy's signals is a legitmate way, and tried and true way, used in real wars.

No one said it would be a one shot crucible magical explosion, but rather, a weapon that turns the tides, and allows us to push the reapers back VERY effectively.

AND before you say our tech will get disabled too, we have the krogan, and guns. We will of course prepare for our own tech loss.

Really, you are just trolling on nitpicking now. What happened to your genius ant analogy.

Modifié par StrawberryRainPop, 26 juillet 2012 - 03:16 .

[dreman9999]

StrawberryRainPop wrote...

sth128 wrote...

StrawberryRainPop wrote...

When the ants are able to come up with a device that can kill the entire universe in a moment, then come back with this analogy.

When you realize that

a) Humans did not come up with the Crucible
The Crucible is not a conventional victory
c) The Crucible did not "kill the entire universe"
d) Understand the difference between "galaxy" and "universe"

then come back to this thread.

Listen,

Ants, with ALL their might, with ALL their combined unity, against a couple of humans with flamethrowers.

Not even a close fight. Stop making this ****** poor comparison. Ants are strictly melee, and anything other than that, humans can wear protection against any venom, it wouldnt even hit the range anyway.

So no. It is possible in ME3 for the galatic force to defeat several reapers when wokring togteher.

ANTS, have NO Chance.

Come back when you are done with this crappy analogy. Unless you can come up with a plan, of how ants, can defeat humans defending on full force with all their technolgy. Hell, flamethrowers and protection is enough.

Our fleet can't beat the reapers fleets in any type of fight.
They have the Oculus, 
http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Oculus , they make in swarms.
They have more ships the take harder blows then ours and kill ours in a single blow.
The reapers can just destory our fleets by sending endless swarms of Oculus at them and that would be it.

[flanny]

T-Bone665 wrote...

1. The cannon is a 37 million year old mass accelerator gun. Exactly the technology we use now. It is just massive in size - and also broken. Nowhere does it say the gun was rushed.
2. FTL ramming might work. Hard to tell how the Reapers would react though.
3. All battles are in 2D because it's easier to show in cutscenes. Also, it might not be an advantage to hit ships from multiple sides.
4. Even with hit and run tactics, Palaven and Thessia fell quickly. If you can't protect your homebases, that tactic will not win a war.
5. Don't remember the Hanar guns clearly - but the Reapers don't need to land. They could just bombard the planet from a distance.
6. We are using Thanix weapons and still losing. Even if we don't see blue beams in cutscenes.
7. The only mass relay that ever was destroyed was the Alpha Relay. It was a special overclocked Relay that was hit with a slow moving asteroid on which was a Reaper artifact. Before that, the Relays were believed to be indestructible. You cant't just shoot them, they are Quantum shielded. Also: Maybe Reapers can outrun the blast, seeing as they have the most powerful FTL drives in existence.

1. It was meant as a parting gift from a face expecting extiction at anytime, i'm saying that is wasn't designed with longevity... however it could be re-designed and put into use.
2. simpy physics would sat badly, the astoriod on arrival shows the effect of momentium on reaper tech.
3. with better maneuverability I would expect that it would
4. they changed their tactics and were unprepared for the initial onslaught.
5.not if they're getting destroyed at a distence, it wouldn't hold off forever, but the tactics are stated in another reply
6. thanix weapons tear through reaper destroyers, fact, if uesd they should inflict a lot of damage on reaper forces, also i'm being specific to thanix tech, i'm stating it as an example of how we can re-purpose reaper tech.
7. but the fact is they can be destroyed... even if we have to use bombs like on tutanka... no way of knowing about speeds but that's assuming the reapers are ready for it.

[Conniving_Eagle]

I wish more people on BSN learned to snip or cut down quotations, it would get rid of a lot of forum clutter.

[dreman9999]

StrawberryRainPop wrote...

sth128 wrote...

StrawberryRainPop wrote...

actually, my suggestion from the OP, is tactics, specifically, a device to disable synthetics, leaving the reapers open to destroy.

Did you even read my post or did you just quote it for fun?

Your suggestion for a "conventional victory" is to develop a "device" that will result in a "controlled" shutdown of ALL REAPERS. No wait, you said "all synthetics", not distinguishing between say, Geth and Reapers.

Tell me, does your magical device look like a giant microphone, docks to the Citadel, and sends out a red bubble across the galaxy?

You just suggested "conventional victory" using a deus ex machina device that does pretty much EXACTLY what the Crucible does. Did you skip over the part where I said "a conventional victory does not rely on a super magical device"?

Shut down all synthetics, geth too, perhaps it starts with a small radius, OF COURSE not the entire galaxy victory, but it is a weapon to disable Reapers in the battlefield, leaving us to pick them apart.

How in the world is this magical? Really? You just trolling now? Messing with the enemy's signals is a legitmate way, and tried and true way, used in real wars.

No one said it would be a one shot crucible magical explosion, but rather, a weapon that turns the tides, and allows us to push the reapers back VERY effectively.

AND before you say our tech will get disabled too, we have the krogan, and guns. We will of course prepare for our own tech loss.

Really, you are just trolling on nitpicking now. What happened to your genius ant analogy.

Control uses the catalyst system thats already there to rewrite the reapers.
Destory is an attack like an EMP.

[StrawberryRainPop]

dreman9999 wrote...

StrawberryRainPop wrote...

sth128 wrote...

StrawberryRainPop wrote...

When the ants are able to come up with a device that can kill the entire universe in a moment, then come back with this analogy.

When you realize that

a) Humans did not come up with the Crucible
The Crucible is not a conventional victory
c) The Crucible did not "kill the entire universe"
d) Understand the difference between "galaxy" and "universe"

then come back to this thread.

Listen,

Ants, with ALL their might, with ALL their combined unity, against a couple of humans with flamethrowers.

Not even a close fight. Stop making this ****** poor comparison. Ants are strictly melee, and anything other than that, humans can wear protection against any venom, it wouldnt even hit the range anyway.

So no. It is possible in ME3 for the galatic force to defeat several reapers when wokring togteher.

ANTS, have NO Chance.

Come back when you are done with this crappy analogy. Unless you can come up with a plan, of how ants, can defeat humans defending on full force with all their technolgy. Hell, flamethrowers and protection is enough.

Our fleet can't beat the reapers fleets in any type of fight.
They have the Oculus, 
http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Oculus , they make in swarms.
They have more ships the take harder blows then ours and kill ours in a single blow.
The reapers can just destory our fleets by sending endless swarms of Oculus at them and that would be it.

which brings me to my point, invest in finding a device to shutdown synthetics temporarily. Come on...its not far fetched at all. Much less so than the crucible.

With that, we can control the battle, and knowing the reapers, they have no other tactic, so if this tech works, we essentially can have a military victory.

[Conniving_Eagle]

@sth128, Comparing Reapers vs. The Galaxy to Humans vs. Ants is really a crappy example when you account for all the factors and differences.

[Conniving_Eagle]

You'd think the Geth would be effective against the Reapers.

[Break Atmo]

Taboo-XX wrote...

You are told twice, TWICE, before going to the Citadel for the first time that conventional victory is impossible.

When is everyone going to quit the variations on 'Conventional victory is impossible because BioWare says so'? Yes, we KNOW ME3's script says it's impossible, what we're saying is that that's stupid, unsatisfying writing, that only crops up starting with ME3 (well, maybe Arrival). ME1 and ME2 are laced with constant plot points that suggest a lead-up to a conventional victory, such as:

- The Reaper's tactics are to burst into the galaxy using the Citadel relay, decapitating the central government, learning everything about the races of the cycle and shutting down the mass relays, making resistance impossible. The actions of the Protheans, and of Shepard and crew at the end of ME1 and possibly ME2 if you assume that the Human Reaper was being made to re-try the Citadel takeover plan, result in these tactics being made impossible, and the Reapers are forced to travel to and enter the galaxy via regular FTL, allowing the galaxy the ability to actually mount a resistance and fight the Reapers  like no cycle ever has before (not to mention that I think it's ridiculous that the manual FTL travel ends up having no bearing on the plot - it was a perfect excuse to have the Reapers be weaker than Sovereign due to being drained by the trip).
- The ancient weapon used to kill the Derelict Reaper - there could have been a plot point where this weapon was manufactured and used to fight the Reapers. Hell, it could have formed a major part of the game, where you go to planets and fight off Reaper forces in various areas, clearing the way for these cannons to be installed.
- Acquisition of Reaper tech - study of Sovereign was carried out and used to create the Thanix Cannon, which brings me to one of the most ridiculous lore gaps. The Collector Ship was 1km long, immensely powerful, and either Reaper-made or Reaper-enhanced - it's only logical to assume that it would have things like fantastic Reaper shields - not as powerful as a 2km capital ship's, but easily far better than a 160km Destroyer. However, this Collector Ship is easily 2-shotted by the puny little under-200m Normandy for no other reason than that it is armed with a single Thanix Cannon. This clearly shows that the Thanix is insanely powerful, and I doubt I'm the only one who expected such a powerful weapon to be one of the key explanations for why the Reapers could be defeated conventionally. Instead, we got 160km Destroyers who needed barrages from the entire Quarian fleet to drop, and capital ships that wouldn't die without sustained fire from 4 dreadnoughts, with zero explanation as to why the Collector Ship, housing the servants carrying out a very important mission for the Reapers, was destroyed so easily in comparison. 

Not to mention things like the explanation for why fighters couldn't be launched at Reapers at light-speed - some crap about how not being able to fly at solid objects was hard-wired into the tech and that this was completely impossible to overwrite. Why was it impossible to overwrite? It's just another example of BioWare shoehorning the Crucible in, refusing to allow a conventional victory, despite having to ignore developments from the first two games to do so.    

Don't get me wrong - I love Mass Effect 3. It's a brilliant game, all the way to the end, and the EC is somewhat OK on the emotional side of things, even if the Catalyst's motives are dumb and go against the rest of the series on a logical and thematic level. But BioWare's refusal to allow a conventional victory in favour of their Crucible device that isn't foreshadowed in any way before ME3 is profoundly unsatisfying, to me and many others. Honestly, I think the current endings could work well alongside a very difficult-to-get conventional victory, as endings where you know you can't win and are forced to settle for working with the Catalyst, with Refusal&Victory only available to those with VERY high EMS. I feel that the dropping of the lore listed above just makes what was done in the first two games feel a lot less meaningful.

[sth128]

StrawberryRainPop wrote...

Listen,

Ants, with ALL their might, with ALL their combined unity, against a couple of humans with flamethrowers.

You mean like when Sovereign single-handedly decimated the Alliance 5th fleet on its own?

[StrawberryRainPop]

sth128 wrote...

StrawberryRainPop wrote...

Listen,

Ants, with ALL their might, with ALL their combined unity, against a couple of humans with flamethrowers.

You mean like when Sovereign single-handedly decimated the Alliance 5th fleet on its own?

Tell me one situation when the ants could defeat humans on full force.

In ME1, we defeated one of the biggest reaper. Your point fails on all accounts.

Its not about how many we kill, your whole comparison is flawed, Ants are Melee, and couldnt even reach us with range, plus we can wear protection. In no way, can the entire ant force, beat 4 humans with flamethrowers, covering each side. Not, POSSIBLE, EVER.

On the other hand, we HAVE DEFEATED reapers before. Your entire argument is wrong, enought with the ants.

[The Twilight God]

StrawberryRainPop wrote...

Do you consider have a device that deactivates all synthetics, and then letting brute force like grunts, tear the reapers apart, conventional?

I call that tactics. The Crucible is not an unconventional victory either, its poor writing, in a terrible Deux Ex Machina.

Conventional warfare is a form of warfare conducted by using conventional military weapons and battlefield tactics between two or more states in open confrontation. The terms conventional weapons or conventional arms generally refer to weapons that are in relatively wide use that are not weapons of mass destruction.

The Quarians attack against the geth was unconventional. Disabling all geth ships entirely so that they can't fight back is not conventional. If we could do this to the Reapers it would not be conventional. To but this in perspective, chemical and nuclear weapons are unconventional in our time and age. The Crucible was definitely not conventional.

Would I have preferred an ending where the Crucible diabled them or weakened them sufficiently enough that we could enagage then with conventional weapons and win? Yes. I wanted to see Harbinger blown apart by the Normandy. Alas.

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Reaper fleet = 10,000 (each of which are more powerful than any single allied ship)

You completely pulled this out of your ass.

You think?

The Twilight God wrote...

Reaper fleet = 10,000 (each of which are more powerful than any single allied ship)

Allied fleet = 1,000 warships

These aren't actual numbers, of course, but the reaper simply outgunned and outnumbered us.

Love how you removed the context. classic internet hijinks.

The point is we were outgunned AND outnumbered. The combined fleets were just there to occupy the reapers so we could get the Crucible to the Citadel. We were outnumbers at Earth with EVERYTHING we had. And there are tons more reapers across the galaxy.

Conventional victory was 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999% improbable.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 26 juillet 2012 - 03:31 .