360 réponses à ce sujet

[flanny]

sth128 wrote...

StrawberryRainPop wrote...

Listen,

Ants, with ALL their might, with ALL their combined unity, against a couple of humans with flamethrowers.

You mean like when Sovereign single-handedly decimated the Alliance 5th fleet on its own?

lol obvious troll 

[sth128]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

@sth128, Comparing Reapers vs. The Galaxy to Humans vs. Ants is really a crappy example when you account for all the factors and differences.

Where's your evidence? You think it's crappy, yet you can't say why. You simply disagree with my analogy because you think ants don't have human-like technology.

I've listed all the similarities. I don't see you refuting them with any convincing degree. In fact, few if any have come up with a true "conventional victory" tactic other than some magical device that can achieve a specific goal which drastically decrease the enemy's abilities.

Regardless of what you think of my analogy, arguing against it doesn't help your "conventional victory" cause. There are no technology in existence within ME universe that can defeat the Reapers with assured chance.

Some weapons have the ability to defeat a single Reaper under unknown circumstances, but almost every engagement shown in the game is one sided with the Reaper achieving overwhelming win.

Where is your conventional victory coming from?

[StrawberryRainPop]

The Twilight God wrote...

StrawberryRainPop wrote...

Do you consider have a device that deactivates all synthetics, and then letting brute force like grunts, tear the reapers apart, conventional?

I call that tactics. The Crucible is not an unconventional victory either, its poor writing, in a terrible Deux Ex Machina.

Conventional warfare is a form of warfare conducted by using conventional military weapons and battlefield tactics between two or more states in open confrontation. The terms conventional weapons or conventional arms generally refer to weapons that are in relatively wide use that are not weapons of mass destruction.

The Quarians attack against the geth was unconventional. To but this in perspective, chemical and nuclear weapons are unconventional in our time and age. The Crucible was definitely not conventional.

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Reaper fleet = 10,000 (each of which are more powerful than any single allied ship)

You completely pulled this out of your ass.

You think?

The Twilight God wrote...

Reaper fleet = 10,000 (each of which are more powerful than any single allied ship)

Allied fleet = 1,000 warships

These aren't actual numbers, of course, but the reaper simply outgunned and outnumbered us.

Love how you removed the context. classic internet hijinks.

The point is we were outgunned AND outnumbered. The combined fleets were just there to occupy the reapers so we could get the Crucible to the Citadel. We were outnumbers at Earth with EVERYTHING we had. And there are tons more reapers across the galaxy.

Conventional victory was 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999% improbable.

i agree mostly with you, except the crucible is nothing but contrived. Its not conventional, or unconvetional, its a device the writers pulled out of their asses to end the series. You might as well have a game wizard handing out cheat codes.

[flanny]

The Twilight God wrote...

Love how you removed the context. classic internet hijinks.

The point is we were outgunned AND outnumbered. The combined fleets were just there to occupy the reapers so we could get the Crucible to the Citadel. We were outnumbers at Earth with EVERYTHING we had. And there are tons more reapers across the galaxy.

Conventional victory was 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999% improbable.

as stated i disagee, as to many others so you can't pass that off as fact 

[Ghurshog]

They give you a gun that kills a destroyer in one shot of human 'make' (not necessarily human design).

I believe the issue is Bioware's is being hypocritical with its lore. (shocking I know)

An Admiral says its not possible conventionally to start with, then you pick up a hand held weapon and blow up a Destroyer Reaper with it.

Why didn't we have one on Rannok that would make the silly ledge thing mute.

Gameplay almost always trumps story/lore in the game designer pantheon.

When you're a hammer all your problems look like a nail. And sometimes its not.

[sth128]

flanny wrote...

sth128 wrote...

StrawberryRainPop wrote...

Listen,

Ants, with ALL their might, with ALL their combined unity, against a couple of humans with flamethrowers.

You mean like when Sovereign single-handedly decimated the Alliance 5th fleet on its own?

lol obvious troll 

Assuming you're directing that comment to me, Sovereign did decimate the Alliance 5th fleet on its own. It is true Sovereign was eventually defeated, but not without severe loss to the fleet. Are you denying the losses suffered by the 5th fleet?

Also, like I said before (and straight from the Codex), Sovereign suffers from a glitch that occurs when its connection to a husk (or avatar?) is disrupted. You can clearly see this in the end cut scene of ME1. Sovereign was literally disabled and physically detached from the Citadel tower. Furthermore, static discharge is shown to appear across its hull. Hackett specifically announced that "its shields are down".

[StrawberryRainPop]

sth128 wrote...

flanny wrote...

sth128 wrote...

StrawberryRainPop wrote...

Listen,

Ants, with ALL their might, with ALL their combined unity, against a couple of humans with flamethrowers.

You mean like when Sovereign single-handedly decimated the Alliance 5th fleet on its own?

lol obvious troll 

Assuming you're directing that comment to me, Sovereign did decimate the Alliance 5th fleet on its own. It is true Sovereign was eventually defeated, but not without severe loss to the fleet. Are you denying the losses suffered by the 5th fleet?

Also, like I said before (and straight from the Codex), Sovereign suffers from a glitch that occurs when its connection to a husk (or avatar?) is disrupted. You can clearly see this in the end cut scene of ME1. Sovereign was literally disabled and physically detached from the Citadel tower. Furthermore, static discharge is shown to appear across its hull. Hackett specifically announced that "its shields are down".

Yes.....like ants could defeat armed humans....thats the troll part. The point isnt the losses, its the ludacrous idea you compare ants aginast humans, with Galtic force against reapers.

Fact is, its impossible for ants to kill a single armed human, but it is possible for the latter. Enough already.

[sth128]

Ghurshog wrote...

They give you a gun that kills a destroyer in one shot of human 'make' (not necessarily human design).

[...]

An Admiral says its not possible conventionally to start with, then you pick up a hand held weapon and blow up a Destroyer Reaper with it.

Are people still confusing the Hades AA cannon with a Reaper destroyer?

Shepard took out a Reaper AA tower with the Cain, not a Reaper destroyer. Every Reaper destroyer Shepard took out was with the aid of either an entire fleet, a giant thresher maw, or a couple of Thanix missiles.

Please don't point to the Hades cannon as a "Reaper destroyer". If it was then Anderson would have said "we need to take out that destroyer" like he did in the final briefing.

[Conniving_Eagle]

sth128 wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

@sth128, Comparing Reapers vs. The Galaxy to Humans vs. Ants is really a crappy example when you account for all the factors and differences.

Where's your evidence? You think it's crappy, yet you can't say why. You simply disagree with my analogy because you think ants don't have human-like technology.

I've listed all the similarities. I don't see you refuting them with any convincing degree. In fact, few if any have come up with a true "conventional victory" tactic other than some magical device that can achieve a specific goal which drastically decrease the enemy's abilities.

Regardless of what you think of my analogy, arguing against it doesn't help your "conventional victory" cause. There are no technology in existence within ME universe that can defeat the Reapers with assured chance.

Some weapons have the ability to defeat a single Reaper under unknown circumstances, but almost every engagement shown in the game is one sided with the Reaper achieving overwhelming win.

Where is your conventional victory coming from?

Tell you what, list the similarities and I'll list the differences.

[F4H bandicoot]

sth128 wrote...

Ghurshog wrote...

They give you a gun that kills a destroyer in one shot of human 'make' (not necessarily human design).

[...]

An Admiral says its not possible conventionally to start with, then you pick up a hand held weapon and blow up a Destroyer Reaper with it.

Are people still confusing the Hades AA cannon with a Reaper destroyer?

Shepard took out a Reaper AA tower with the Cain, not a Reaper destroyer. Every Reaper destroyer Shepard took out was with the aid of either an entire fleet, a giant thresher maw, or a couple of Thanix missiles.

Please don't point to the Hades cannon as a "Reaper destroyer". If it was then Anderson would have said "we need to take out that destroyer" like he did in the final briefing.

It was quite clearly a destroyer with a AA cannon mounted upon it.

[flanny]

sth128 wrote...

flanny wrote...

sth128 wrote...

StrawberryRainPop wrote...

Listen,

Ants, with ALL their might, with ALL their combined unity, against a couple of humans with flamethrowers.

You mean like when Sovereign single-handedly decimated the Alliance 5th fleet on its own?

lol obvious troll 

Assuming you're directing that comment to me, Sovereign did decimate the Alliance 5th fleet on its own. It is true Sovereign was eventually defeated, but not without severe loss to the fleet. Are you denying the losses suffered by the 5th fleet?


Also, like I said before (and straight from the Codex), Sovereign suffers from a glitch that occurs when its connection to a husk (or avatar?) is disrupted. You can clearly see this in the end cut scene of ME1. Sovereign was literally disabled and physically detached from the Citadel tower. Furthermore, static discharge is shown to appear across its hull. Hackett specifically announced that "its shields are down".

but it was the geth, soveregn only... joking i don't feed trolls hope you enjoy that little nibble though 

[T-Bone665]

I'm feeling bad for adding fuel to the ant-argument, but: There are LOTS of ants. Quadrillions of ants live on this planet, they outnumber us a million to one. The combined biomass of ants and humans is estimed to be about equal. If they were to team up, we'd be in trouble.

But please, just let that argument rest. It's just an analogy - it doesn't need to fit 100%.

[F4H bandicoot]

flanny wrote...

sth128 wrote...

flanny wrote...

sth128 wrote...

StrawberryRainPop wrote...

Listen,

Ants, with ALL their might, with ALL their combined unity, against a couple of humans with flamethrowers.

You mean like when Sovereign single-handedly decimated the Alliance 5th fleet on its own?

lol obvious troll 

Assuming you're directing that comment to me, Sovereign did decimate the Alliance 5th fleet on its own. It is true Sovereign was eventually defeated, but not without severe loss to the fleet. Are you denying the losses suffered by the 5th fleet?


Also, like I said before (and straight from the Codex), Sovereign suffers from a glitch that occurs when its connection to a husk (or avatar?) is disrupted. You can clearly see this in the end cut scene of ME1. Sovereign was literally disabled and physically detached from the Citadel tower. Furthermore, static discharge is shown to appear across its hull. Hackett specifically announced that "its shields are down".

but it was the geth, soveregn only... joking i don't feed trolls hope you enjoy that little nibble though 

yes Sovie had the geth, but reapers have destroyers...

[flanny]

F4H bandicoot wrote...

sth128 wrote...

Ghurshog wrote...

They give you a gun that kills a destroyer in one shot of human 'make' (not necessarily human design).

[...]

An Admiral says its not possible conventionally to start with, then you pick up a hand held weapon and blow up a Destroyer Reaper with it.

Are people still confusing the Hades AA cannon with a Reaper destroyer?

Shepard took out a Reaper AA tower with the Cain, not a Reaper destroyer. Every Reaper destroyer Shepard took out was with the aid of either an entire fleet, a giant thresher maw, or a couple of Thanix missiles.

Please don't point to the Hades cannon as a "Reaper destroyer". If it was then Anderson would have said "we need to take out that destroyer" like he did in the final briefing.

It was quite clearly a destroyer with a AA cannon mounted upon it.

is the correct answer 
http://masseffect.wi...ki/Hades_Cannon

[Conniving_Eagle]

The Twilight God wrote...

You think?

The Twilight God wrote...

Reaper fleet = 10,000 (each of which are more powerful than any single allied ship)

Allied fleet = 1,000 warships

These aren't actual numbers, of course, but the reaper simply outgunned and outnumbered us.

Love how you removed the context. classic internet hijinks.

The point is we were outgunned AND outnumbered. The combined fleets were just there to occupy the reapers so we could get the Crucible to the Citadel. We were outnumbers at Earth with EVERYTHING we had. And there are tons more reapers across the galaxy.

Conventional victory was 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999% improbable.

The fact that you are using blatantly conceived numbers to support your argument is telling...

[Conniving_Eagle]

It did not take the entire Quarian fleet to take out the Rannoch Reaper.

[sth128]

StrawberryRainPop wrote...

Yes.....like ants could defeat armed humans....thats the troll part. The point isnt the losses, its the ludacrous idea you compare ants aginast humans, with Galtic force against reapers.
Fact is, its impossible for ants to kill a single armed human, but it is possible for the latter. Enough already.

It is improbable, not impossible. Many ant species can chew through hardened materials. The ABC new report I linked earlier points out that ants are chewing through electrical boxes and causing domestic fires.

An armed person would be overwhelming for ants, but not impossible. Guns are terrible at killing ants while flame throwers have limited fuel. Bullet ant venom have a pain index of 4.0+, enough to stumble if not paralyze a person with only a few stings. Are you saying it is completely impossible for a couple of ants to climb up a person undetected and sting him a few times?

And going back to Sovereign's attack on the Citadel. How likely would it have been for the 5th fleet to destroy Sovereign had Shepard not disrupted Sovereign's connection and disabled it?

At the very least Sovereign would have cause far greater damage to the fleet, possibly destroying every last ship.

[StrawberryRainPop]

sth128 wrote...

StrawberryRainPop wrote...

Yes.....like ants could defeat armed humans....thats the troll part. The point isnt the losses, its the ludacrous idea you compare ants aginast humans, with Galtic force against reapers.
Fact is, its impossible for ants to kill a single armed human, but it is possible for the latter. Enough already.

It is improbable, not impossible. Many ant species can chew through hardened materials. The ABC new report I linked earlier points out that ants are chewing through electrical boxes and causing domestic fires.

An armed person would be overwhelming for ants, but not impossible. Guns are terrible at killing ants while flame throwers have limited fuel. Bullet ant venom have a pain index of 4.0+, enough to stumble if not paralyze a person with only a few stings. Are you saying it is completely impossible for a couple of ants to climb up a person undetected and sting him a few times?

And going back to Sovereign's attack on the Citadel. How likely would it have been for the 5th fleet to destroy Sovereign had Shepard not disrupted Sovereign's connection and disabled it?

At the very least Sovereign would have cause far greater damage to the fleet, possibly destroying every last ship.

In full force, and a planned attack, yes. Running out of fuel? Of course, but then you might as well say the Reapers could run out of ammo. Obviously they plan for it.

And yes, onyl flamethrowers. What idiot could use guns. Your only argument then is run out of ammo.

[T-Bone665]

*double post removed*

Modifié par T-Bone665, 26 juillet 2012 - 03:52 .

[dreman9999]

Chashan wrote...

1. You didn't make a point.

Why, it is still the hero's task to slay the dragon and thus ending the immediate threat. That the player's avatar is railroaded into joining a bunch of lunatics which also happens to be a direct pre-requirement for the slaying to work - which might also be connected to Morrigan's offer actually working - is of no consequence as to the clear-cut business going down in the end.

Compare this to the awkward abstract construct that the crucible is, with noone having an idea what it does right up until the end etc. ...

2. That's still an unconvetional victory and the EAGLE would not make it because they would been seen, shot down and kill by wraths

Not acknowledging Arda's gods, the valar, who are known to have responded to the pleas of the peoples of the First Age as brought to them in their homestead of Valinor by Earendil against the threatening total victory of the first Dark Lord Melkor, Sauron's boss, eh?

And the Eagles are bossier than you make them out to be, and it is likely that they outright denied carrying the One Ring due to the temptations that come along with it rather than the Dark Lord's anti-air division being the priority concern. And possibly because they are the long arm of Manwe, one of the Valar, who have had no wish for direct intervention in Middle Earth anymore after the cataclysmic conclusion of the First Age that saw Beleriand drowned in the waves.

1. The fact that it riquires a grey warden to killthe dragon does make it relivent.
Also, the crucible was left lable by the prothens asa divice thatcan kill the reapers. The prothean vi left on Thessia when into details how it does it. It more of a quetion of if we believe a past dead race on their own reserch. The oly reason we did know what it did at the start is because the protheans where being very secretive. We learnt what it did from the cerberus base.
What it does what never the question, how it did it and if it did it was the question.

2.You not getting that that they had acounter for it. We had an aposing wizard that can effect the weather, the wraiths, the hunter that seeks the ring, and sarimums army.
Still no matter how you cut it, Lothr isan unconvetional victory.

[The Twilight God]

StrawberryRainPop wrote...

i agree mostly with you, except the crucible is nothing but contrived. Its not conventional, or unconvetional, its a device the writers pulled out of their asses to end the series. You might as well have a game wizard handing out cheat codes.

Hehe, yes. They obviously never planned ahead. It's funny because I was planning ahead since the end of ME1. Bioware has great character writters, but they are sorely lacking in story writters. any good writter fleshes out the entire story and then makes changes along the way. They don't enter into the final act with no clue how they are going to finish things.

Me, I imagined we'd use the Citadel relay to go to the facility in darkspace. That's how relays work. There must be something out in darkspace that the reapers would come in through. A sort of base perhaps. From there we could learn about them and find something to use against them. It's more believable than "the answer to all our questions was here on mars all along". Seriously, the protheans would have had to have been on Mars DURING their war for those files to be there. This being the case why wasn't REAPERS and CRUCIBLE the first things to pop up. You'd think that no matter were you looked in the archives there would be a pop-up screaming, "CLICK HERE FOR CRUCIBLE!!! REAPERS ARE COMING!!!!!", "MUST CLICK REAPER FILES TO CONTINUE!!!"

Yes, it is a bullsh*t move by Mac Walters. But like I said, he is a character writter. They all are. They have no story writters. I'd write them a plot for free. Me, I'm a story writer, not character writter.

Would I have preferred an ending where the Crucible disabled them or weakened them sufficiently enough that we could enagage then with conventional weapons and win? Yes. I wanted to see Harbinger blown apart by the Normandy. Alas. We got reapers reduced to practically mindless toys and the focus switches from "stop the reapers" to "let's help them with their social studies homework" in the last 10 minutes.
 
Catalyst: :WE find a new solution?

Shepard: Bullsh*t! I don't care about your disingenuous assertions!!! *FALCON PUNCH!!!!*

Catalyst: B-b-but the Chaos?!?!?! I have to solve my non-existent problem!!!

Shepard: *Omni blade stab* That's for slaughtering trillions of people on shotty logic, you sone of a b*tch!!!

[T-Bone665]

If we take a look at the Reapers ships that were destroyed on screen and not only in the codex (the codex is not 100% correct all the time and does contradict itself at details), there is no real precedent for what it takes to destroy them.

- Rannoch Destroyer: Bombarded by unknown number of Quarian ships. Really, we have no idea how many fired what weapons.
- Hades Cannon Destroyer: Had a Hades Cannon on it's back. Could drain its ability to use barriers.
- Conduit Destroyer: Was close to the conduit. Thanix missiles hit the weak spot behind the armor plates.
- Sovereign: Shields deactivated when Saren's Husk was "killed".

There was just never any fight against a real Sovereign-class Reaper. You know, the ones that dwarf those tiny 160m Destroyers. Just battles with Reaper Destroyers, which were designed for this game so that there could be "fights" against on screen "Reapers". And even then, every time we see them, there are special circumstances. So how can we say with certainty what weapon would work against an armada of the larger ones?

Modifié par T-Bone665, 26 juillet 2012 - 03:51 .

[F4H bandicoot]

flanny wrote...

F4H bandicoot wrote...

sth128 wrote...

Ghurshog wrote...

They give you a gun that kills a destroyer in one shot of human 'make' (not necessarily human design).

[...]

An Admiral says its not possible conventionally to start with, then you pick up a hand held weapon and blow up a Destroyer Reaper with it.

Are people still confusing the Hades AA cannon with a Reaper destroyer?

Shepard took out a Reaper AA tower with the Cain, not a Reaper destroyer. Every Reaper destroyer Shepard took out was with the aid of either an entire fleet, a giant thresher maw, or a couple of Thanix missiles.

Please don't point to the Hades cannon as a "Reaper destroyer". If it was then Anderson would have said "we need to take out that destroyer" like he did in the final briefing.

It was quite clearly a destroyer with a AA cannon mounted upon it.

is the correct answer 
http://masseffect.wi...ki/Hades_Cannon

It still makes no sense that it take an entire quarian fleet 3 attempts to kill the destroyer, then 1 cain shot to take down the hades (which I assume would have a similar level of armour) and then 2 thanix missile weaken the last destroyer enough for about 30 rockets and 200 guns to finally take it down.

[flanny]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

It did not take the entire Quarian fleet to take out the Rannoch Reaper.

this, a couple of ships firing their smallest guns to deliver precision fire were able to take out a reaper... if anything this makes them appear vulnerable.

Also the fact that reaper never thought to shoot at shepard horizontally shows the kind of enemy we're dealing with... idiots 

[F4H bandicoot]

flanny wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

It did not take the entire Quarian fleet to take out the Rannoch Reaper.

this, a couple of ships firing their smallest guns to deliver precision fire were able to take out a reaper... if anything this makes them appear vulnerable.

Also the fact that reaper never thought to shoot at shepard horizontally shows the kind of enemy we're dealing with... idiots 

EDI syncs the quarian fleet at rannoch to fire at the eraper, this is clearly stated in game.