123 réponses à ce sujet

[Bluebeam2012]

I shall give it a try!

Man, if it still beats the Vindi even after the AR got buffed..... /f**klogic

[Nissun]

Okay, first impression:

FBGiant, Reapers, Silver, playing as a Geth Engineer:



There was a fourth guy playing an asari of some kind too.

Bear in mind that I did use overload a lot, and I used the level 1 amp Densified Ammunition. But still, I did not expect to kill this much.

I think I'll be using the Shuriken a lot more now.

[rmccowen]

Poekel wrote...

People seem to forget that the Shuriken has a minimum refire time of 0.5...

Yeah, this. The script that displays stats in the manifest is wonderful, but it's lying in this case.

At 1100 RPM, it takes (6 * 60 / 1100) = 0.32s to fire a 6-round burst. The minimum refire of 0.5s means it takes 6 * (0.5 + 0.32) = 4.96s to empy the Shuriken's magazine, dealing 48.3 * 36 = 1738.8 damage in doing so.

1738.8 damage per magazine divided by 4.96s = 350.3 burst DPS. Adding in the reload time of 0.7s gives you 1738.8 / (4.96s + 0.7s) = 307.0 sustained DPS. (I'm not sure how reload cancel affects DPS, but reload-canceled DPS is certainly between those two numbers.)

So: 350.3 burst DPS against unarmored targets. I won't go through the math, but it works out to 314.0 burst DPS against armor, with HV Barrel V. And the recoil system affects the weapon's recoil, not its accuracy--which isn't great on the Shuriken.

Your stat sheet is lying, soultaker65: the Shuriken is still exactly as good as the worst SMG should be.

[Meri-Em]

rmccowen wrote...

Poekel wrote...

People seem to forget that the Shuriken has a minimum refire time of 0.5...

Yeah, this. The script that displays stats in the manifest is wonderful, but it's lying in this case.

At 1100 RPM, it takes (6 * 60 / 1100) = 0.32s to fire a 6-round burst. The minimum refire of 0.5s means it takes 6 * (0.5 + 0.32) = 4.96s to empy the Shuriken's magazine, dealing 48.3 * 36 = 1738.8 damage in doing so.

1738.8 damage per magazine divided by 4.96s = 350.3 burst DPS. Adding in the reload time of 0.7s gives you 1738.8 / (4.96s + 0.7s) = 307.0 sustained DPS. (I'm not sure how reload cancel affects DPS, but reload-canceled DPS is certainly between those two numbers.)

So: 350.3 burst DPS against unarmored targets. I won't go through the math, but it works out to 314.0 burst DPS against armor, with HV Barrel V. And the recoil system affects the weapon's recoil, not its accuracy--which isn't great on the Shuriken.

Your stat sheet is lying, soultaker65: the Shuriken is still exactly as good as the worst SMG should be.

Ain't math grand? Those are enough coffin nails to lay your claim to rest.

[soultaker65]

We all know the stat sheet can lie but gameplay doesn't. Go try it before you say no if it does better then the Vindicator or equal with the Hornet then the Shuriken is better then all the Common weapons and is one of the best side-arm in the game.

Why is it when someone tries to give info on this forum 50 people say your wrong before they even try it?

Modifié par soultaker65, 26 juillet 2012 - 12:13 .

[OneTrueShot]

*Cough.* My original post stands.

[uzivatel]

soultaker65 wrote...

Meri-Em wrote...

Don't be fooled. 1100 rpm with 48,3 dmg per round sounds good on paper but you don't actually fire 18 bullets per second. It's 9 if not less thanks to the break between the 6-round bursts. Your model for calculating it's dps is flawed.

It's not the rpm I'm talking about it's the armor damage that the Shuriken X does with the High-Velocity Barrel and it's Accuracy with the Recoil System.

I am not sure I understand. Are you telling us the Shuriken does almost full base damage against armor ... except the base damage is still pretty low making it useless against armored targets?

[soultaker65]

uzivatel wrote...
]I am not sure I understand. Are you telling us the Shuriken does almost full base damage against armor ... except the base damage is still pretty low making it useless against armored targets?

Alright the Shuriken, Vindicator, and Hornet are Burst-fire weapons right?
Meaning that you have to tap the fire button in a rhythm to use them right?
You can't fire any of them as fast as the Mattock or Raptor so the rpm/dps on the stat sheet is not equal to gameplay.
So you need to try all three in gameplay before you say no, also Shuriken, Vindicator, and Hornet mid-range weapon so don't try to Snipe with them.

Modifié par soultaker65, 26 juillet 2012 - 12:45 .

[Jay_Hoxtatron]

Oldzuu wrote...

Jay_Hoxtatron wrote...

Ashen Earth wrote...

xcrunr1647 wrote...

Hm.

This demands experimentation.

For science!!

Ok, I just tried it on my QFI specced for duration, Glacier/Cerby/Gold. Mods : HVB+Extended Mag. Gear : Vulnerability VI V. Amps  : AP ammo III.

Conclusion : it tears **** up. Admittedly, it was on an infiltrator. But still... I didn't expect a common smg to be that good. You guys should try it. 

PS : haven't tried on PLatinum though. You guys go ahead and tell me what it's like. 

[BoomDynamite]

I like the Hornet more with the same weapon mods.

[soultaker65]

@ Meri-Em & rmccowen

if I'm not mistaken the Vindicator, and Hornet fire three round per shot while the Shuriken fires six if that is the case doesn't that mean that every 1-2 seconds the Shuriken fires 12-18 round while the Vindicator, and Hornet fire 6-9 round right?
so how does that factor in to the math?

and with almost no recoil can't you aim for the head with every shot?

[Prawny]

Oh, great. My favourite gun is now going to be nerfed ¬.¬

[Meri-Em]

How shall I put this?
Any weapon ist better than the Shurikan if you actually want to fire with it. If somebody were to look up the word bad in a lexicon there would be a mention (or possibly picture) of the Shuriken as example. (at this point I feel I have to resort to hyperbole to get my point across.

Look it up: docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub powered by Tangster
delay between burst: 0.5 seconds Shuriken, 0.25 secs Vindicator, 0.15 secs Hornet

Modifié par Meri-Em, 26 juillet 2012 - 01:25 .

[Jay_Hoxtatron]

Meri-Em wrote...

How shall I put this?
Any weapon ist better than the Shurikan if you actually want to fire with it. If somebody were to look up the word bad in a lexicon therre would be a mention (or possibly picture) of the Shuriken as example. (at this point I feel I have to resort to hyperbole to get my point across.

Look it up: docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub powered by Tangster

Sure pal. Now buff the Shuriken please .

[soultaker65]

Meri-Em wrote...

How shall I put this?
Any weapon ist better than the Shurikan if you actually want to fire with it. If somebody were to look up the word bad in a lexicon there would be a mention (or possibly picture) of the Shuriken as example. (at this point I feel I have to resort to hyperbole to get my point across.

Look it up: docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub powered by Tangster
delay between burst: 0.5 seconds Shuriken, 0.25 secs Vindicator, 0.15 secs Hornet

You keep talking about stuff on paper what about gameplay? Until you try all three in a full match with the same enemy and stop use math to try and prove your point your not saying much.

also 0.5 = half a second, 0.25 = a quarter of a second, and 0.15 = 1/6 of a second the human body can't press a botton that fast consistently so saying numbers is not helping yout point.

[rmccowen]

soultaker65 wrote...

@ Meri-Em & rmccowen

if I'm not mistaken the Vindicator, and Hornet fire three round per shot while the Shuriken fires six if that is the case doesn't that mean that every 1-2 seconds the Shuriken fires 12-18 round while the Vindicator, and Hornet fire 6-9 round right?
so how does that factor in to the math?

The Vindicator fires a three-round burst at 550 rounds per minute, with a minimum refire time of 0.25s. The Hornet fires a three-round burst at 1000 rounds per minute, with a minimum refire time of 0.15s.

So while the Shuriken puts 6 rounds out every 0.82 seconds (7.3 rounds per second), the Vindicator puts out 3 rounds every 0.58s (5.2 rounds per second), and the Hornet puts out 3 rounds ever 0.33s (9.1 rounds per second). Of the three, the Shuriken has by far the lowest damage per round, which leads to a lower DPS.

and with almost no recoil can't you aim for the head with every shot?

Accuracy and recoil are separate stat lines in ME3 (actually multiple stat lines for each). A gun with good accuracy will have a tight grouping of shots, whereas a gun with low recoil will be easy to keep on target.

A gun with good accuracy and high recoil--say, the Hornet--will put rounds right where the crosshairs indicate, but it will be hard to keep the crosshairs on target. A gun with moderate accuracy and low recoil--say, the Shuriken--will have a nice stable set of crosshairs, but the rounds won't necessarily go to the center of the crosshairs. (That's much more of an issue at long range than in CQC.)

I'm glad people are equipping the Shuriken and liking it--but what you're seeing is that the mods indicated in the thread title are very good, and that full-auto weapons don't really deserve their reputation on the forum here. If you equipped the recoil and AP mods on a Phaeston, for instance, you'd see about twice the performance you're currently getting out of the Shuriken.

[Immortal Strife]

I'll try it.

[soultaker65]

rmccowen wrote...

soultaker65 wrote...

@ Meri-Em & rmccowen

if I'm not mistaken the Vindicator, and Hornet fire three round per shot while the Shuriken fires six if that is the case doesn't that mean that every 1-2 seconds the Shuriken fires 12-18 round while the Vindicator, and Hornet fire 6-9 round right?
so how does that factor in to the math?

The Vindicator fires a three-round burst at 550 rounds per minute, with a minimum refire time of 0.25s. The Hornet fires a three-round burst at 1000 rounds per minute, with a minimum refire time of 0.15s.

So while the Shuriken puts 6 rounds out every 0.82 seconds (7.3 rounds per second), the Vindicator puts out 3 rounds every 0.58s (5.2 rounds per second), and the Hornet puts out 3 rounds ever 0.33s (9.1 rounds per second). Of the three, the Shuriken has by far the lowest damage per round, which leads to a lower DPS.

and with almost no recoil can't you aim for the head with every shot?

Accuracy and recoil are separate stat lines in ME3 (actually multiple stat lines for each). A gun with good accuracy will have a tight grouping of shots, whereas a gun with low recoil will be easy to keep on target.

A gun with good accuracy and high recoil--say, the Hornet--will put rounds right where the crosshairs indicate, but it will be hard to keep the crosshairs on target. A gun with moderate accuracy and low recoil--say, the Shuriken--will have a nice stable set of crosshairs, but the rounds won't necessarily go to the center of the crosshairs. (That's much more of an issue at long range than in CQC.)

I'm glad people are equipping the Shuriken and liking it--but what you're seeing is that the mods indicated in the thread title are very good, and that full-auto weapons don't really deserve their reputation on the forum here. If you equipped the recoil and AP mods on a Phaeston, for instance, you'd see about twice the performance you're currently getting out of the Shuriken.

Thank you for the info and yes the Phaeston is far more powerful then the Shuriken, Vindicator, or Hornet I never said you sould use any of them as your main weapon but as a side-arm. With the SMG High-Velocity Barrel and the SMG Recoil System the Shuriken is now one of the best side-arm in the game.

Modifié par soultaker65, 26 juillet 2012 - 02:39 .

[rmccowen]

soultaker65 wrote...

Meri-Em wrote...

Look it up: docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub powered by Tangster
delay between burst: 0.5 seconds Shuriken, 0.25 secs Vindicator, 0.15 secs Hornet

You keep talking about stuff on paper what about gameplay? Until you try all three in a full match with the same enemy and stop use math to try and prove your point your not saying much.

also 0.5 = half a second, 0.25 = a quarter of a second, and 0.15 = 1/6 of a second the human body can't press a botton that fast consistently so saying numbers is not helping yout point.

This is you, upthread:

soultaker65 wrote...

Actually the Shuriken does more
damage to armor then the Hornet, it's Clip Size is bigger, it's Recoil
is lower, it's ammo Capacity is higher, it Weight is lower. So besides
base damage the Shuriken wins overall.

(it's Sustained DPS and Reload Cancelled DPS are higher) my Manifest said it higher but I'm not sure.

You decided the Shuriken was really good by looking at the stat sheet in your manifest, which would be fine except that in this instance the calculated DPS values were wrong. When presented with corrected values, your retort is that people are only talking about on paper.

In the game, once you finish applying amps, class passives, etc., the Shuriken is going to do somewhere in the neighborhood of 500 DPS. It has fairly nice handling (i.e., low recoil), particularly with the mod, and it has moderate accuracy--meaning it works fine at close range. Factoring in headshot bonuses, you can probably finish off most low-level badguys in Bronze, Silver, and maybe even Gold with just a couple of bursts.

But that's called a floor effect: every single weapon in the game is good against low-level badguys at close range, particularly on lower difficulty levels. That shouldn't be your standard for performance.

[Meri-Em]

Oh boy...
Do you even comprehend what you and others are writing about?(I just called you s t u p i d to spell it out)
first: 0.15 is closer to 1/7 of a second
second:  missing s notwithstanding the delay between burst(s) is the time between two salvos
3 rounds take the hornet 60/1000*3 seconds to fire add to that the delay and you will fire every 0.33 seconds
Had you actually used it in recent human history you might have noticed that.
third and most important: The Shuriken does nothing the other 2 guns can't. It has no hidden superpowers or magic bullets. So all you really have to compare is their damage.

also:

OneTrueShot wrote...

THAT MAN IS A TROLL.

Just tested it against Gold/Geth. It's still about as effective as the locust.

[Teratoid]

Sounds like someone's got a vendetta against the Hornet and Vindicator.

[rmccowen]

Meri-Em wrote...

Oh boy...
Do you even comprehend what you and others are writing about?(I just called you s t u p i d to spell it out)

Just FYI, open insults aimed at other posters are a violation of the TOS.

[Someone With Mass]

As if I needed a reason to use one of my favorite SMGs. The Hornet is a overhyped POS with little ammo capacity and I don't like the weight of the Vindicator that much.

[soultaker65]

rmccowen wrote...

soultaker65 wrote...

Meri-Em wrote...

Look it up: docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub powered by Tangster
delay between burst: 0.5 seconds Shuriken, 0.25 secs Vindicator, 0.15 secs Hornet

You keep talking about stuff on paper what about gameplay? Until you try all three in a full match with the same enemy and stop use math to try and prove your point your not saying much.

also 0.5 = half a second, 0.25 = a quarter of a second, and 0.15 = 1/6 of a second the human body can't press a botton that fast consistently so saying numbers is not helping yout point.

This is you, upthread:

soultaker65 wrote...

Actually the Shuriken does more
damage to armor then the Hornet, it's Clip Size is bigger, it's Recoil
is lower, it's ammo Capacity is higher, it Weight is lower. So besides
base damage the Shuriken wins overall.

(it's Sustained DPS and Reload Cancelled DPS are higher) my Manifest said it higher but I'm not sure.

You decided the Shuriken was really good by looking at the stat sheet in your manifest, which would be fine except that in this instance the calculated DPS values were wrong. When presented with corrected values, your retort is that people are only talking about on paper.

In the game, once you finish applying amps, class passives, etc., the Shuriken is going to do somewhere in the neighborhood of 500 DPS. It has fairly nice handling (i.e., low recoil), particularly with the mod, and it has moderate accuracy--meaning it works fine at close range. Factoring in headshot bonuses, you can probably finish off most low-level badguys in Bronze, Silver, and maybe even Gold with just a couple of bursts.

But that's called a floor effect: every single weapon in the game is good against low-level badguys at close range, particularly on lower difficulty levels. That shouldn't be your standard for performance.

Actually I used it in gameplay way before I looked at the stats sheet You can look at the first few replys and see that most looked at the stats then tried it in the game. I never really look at stats because they don't tell the whole story.

If I looked at stats before I used a weapon then I wouldn't have ever used the Particle Rifle. You and I both know how much I like the Particle Rifle and it's stats are really bad. 

Modifié par soultaker65, 26 juillet 2012 - 02:49 .

[Micah3sixty]

Numbers, numbers, numbers. I'll just stick with my Hurricane IV with AP barrel and stability mod = I win!