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[Ieldra]

Many people don't like Synthesis for its utopian aspects. Others see that many Synthesis apologists passionately reject the notion that Synthesis results in an utopia, and don't understand why. I think this is an aspect of Synthesis that deserves its own topic.

As a stepping stone for discussion, here's my take on things:

Why I think Synthesis results in a golden age, but not an utopia:
It's simple: I cannot envision a utopia as being anything but static, but there is a dynamic in the post-Synthesis future. There is the prospect of ascension, and if you sabotaged the genophage cure, the epilogue says that the krogan will eventually regain their world and the stars. Also, as many people have pointed out, there will inevitably be people who don't like what happened to them. How many of them there are is headcanon territory, but the assumption that nobody will object is just not plausible.
So, I think that Synthesis will result in a golden age, and several important limitations of the human condition will eventually be overcome (which I see as a very good thing), but it won't be a utopia, and it won't be without conflict. Maybe without a big war for a very long time, but even that will eventually end, because no state of being is for eternity, regardless of the love Bioware's writers appear to have for their infinities and finalities. 

Why I don't want Synthesis to result in an utopia:
As I said, I can't envision a utopia as anything but static. That would be boring. No advancement, no change. No interesting stories to tell. Also, eternal happiness is a deceptive term. We only feel our happiness because it contrasts with other states of being. As paradox as it sounds, a perfect state of being in the sense of being most desirable would include the potential to be less than perfectly happy. So...no, I don't want the post-Synthesis galaxy to be a utopia. A better place than before, sure, but not a utopia.

Note that my understanding of the term "utopia" includes the notion that it is static. If anyone doesn't see it that way, I'd like to hear why.

[CrutchCricket]

The more I think about it the more I realize that the age of strife I mentioned to you earlier is inevitable regardless of what you choose. With the greater threat extinguished the species will go back to competing and as certain things come to light will actively blame each other for the wrongs each has committed.

Synthesis makes it worse in fact because you've now effectively escalated the conflict by giving everyone superpowers and "superknowledge". I believe the age of strife is inevitable. If I go full pessimist, under synthesis, this leads to total annihilation of galactic society and eventual extinction for all involved.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 26 juillet 2012 - 04:26 .

[Ieldra]

Wow, CrutchCricket, just because I'm rejecting utopia doesn't mean I want to go to the other extreme.

[wantedman dan]

CrutchCricket wrote...

The more I think about it the more I realize that the age of strife I mentioned to you earlier is inevitable regardless of what you choose. With the greater threat extinguished the species will go back to competing and as certain things come to light will actively blame each other for the wrongs each has committed.

Synthesis makes it worse in fact because you've now effectively escalated the conflict by giving everyone superpowers and "superknowledge". I believe the age of strife is inevitable. If I go full pessimist, under synthesis, this leads to total annihilation of galactic society and eventual extinction for all involved.

I'm compelled to agree with this.

If Synthesis is not utopian, it will, by the very nature of our existence, lead to dystopia. 

[teh DRUMPf!!]

It is certainly presented as one. But I don't buy it. I think there would be a lot of controversy around the Reapers not being killed and cooperating with them, despite how much they could help. The husks would probably be treated like the prawns from District 9 as well. Organics may have understanding, but hell if we use it.


Making organics more like synthetics probably wouldn't lead to any individual personality changes either, seeing as synthetics are *barely* capable of having one themselves. So I don't see synthesis "making" organics all have good morality if they don't already.

Though it's possible they will be more reasonable if synthesis improves their logic, then it may lead to a decrease in irrational (violent) behavior.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 26 juillet 2012 - 04:56 .

[CrutchCricket]

Well the conflict is unavoidable. But how far it goes is unknowable. It could be anywhere from a 6-way Cold War to total annihilation.

I think it was a mistake trying to get the endings to "mean" anything past just dealing with the Reapers. I think they wanted to introduce a larger problem just to justify the pisspoor writing they were getting stuck with. Problem is none of the endings solve anything except stopping the Reapers. Artistic integrity- not just bull****, but useless and arbitrary as well. Insult to injury.

But that's neither here nor there.

[lillitheris]

No, the unicorns poop everywhere, which drives the elves crazy.

[D24O]

Yeah, there probably will be some level of conflict in the post reaper universe, regardless of the ending choice. How far it goes, from economic competition, to Council v Terminus space to all out war and even the resurgence of a reaper threat ends up all being a matter of speculation since they're probably leaving the universe alone.

[Bill Casey]

The endings, how do they feel?

"Brave New World"

A novel about a utopia achieved through control which is found abhorrant by the main character...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 26 juillet 2012 - 07:29 .

[Taboo]

To be fair Ieldra, a Utopia is not static as much as it is a "Self licking Ice Cream Cone".

That means it exists only to sustain itself. Any hindrance to that and it comes crashing down.

This has been told in numerous stories over the years.

Even that repulsive hag Ayn Rand knew that Utopias were a bad thing. And she's just, JUST, awful.

[jstme]

Digitalized ants that overcame several important limitations of the formicidae condition will crash all the opposition using their wi-fi hive mind.
Resistance will be futile.

[Applepie_Svk]

Utopia - standing on ashes of dead civilizations cause that what´s Synthesis doing ...

[Ageless Face]

For utopia to be created, everyone need to agree on everything. Since it seems individuality still exists in synthesis, then so will conflicts. There are conflicts- there is no utopia.

Modifié par HagarIshay, 26 juillet 2012 - 07:32 .

[dreman9999]

It's an Utopia ...And indoctrinated Utopia but it's an Utopia

[dreman9999]

HagarIshay wrote...

For utopia to be created, everyone need to agree on everything. Since it seems individuality still exists in synthesis, then so will conflicts. There are conflicts- there is no utopia.

Everyone beign indoctrinated covers that.

[Bill Casey]

HagarIshay wrote...

Since it seems individuality still exists in synthesis, then so will conflicts.

What?
There's peace across the galaxy...
Even if you have Wreav in charge of the Krogan...
The "Wreav goes to war" stills are absent...

EDI sounds like Sovereign, where she previously found the reapers repulsive, and would rather die than help them...

Javik is unaffected by the green glowy bull****...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 26 juillet 2012 - 07:37 .

[Ageless Face]

Bill Casey wrote...
What?

First, Joker and EDI hugging each other. Emotions still exist, don't they? EDI also shows emotions in her speech.

Emotions one of the things making people individuals.

dreman9999 wrote...
Everyone beign indoctrinated covers that.

Bring me one proof the society in synthesis are indotrinated.

[Bill Casey]

HagarIshay wrote...

Emotions one of the things making people individuals.

No they aren't...
That's a troubling line of thought...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 26 juillet 2012 - 07:38 .

[The_Shootist]

With everyone a Reaper? I think not.

[Ageless Face]

Bill Casey wrote...
No they aren't...

Oh really? Why not?

Not all people feel the same in the same situations. Not everyone feel the same way about someone. Emotions is also what makes us react to many situations.

So yes. Emotions make people individuals.

[Bill Casey]

Rats can be controlled remotely by tapping into their brains and manipulating the reward centers within...

Lifton studied thought reform in Chinese and Korean camps in the 50s, and it is largely reliant on the subject's emotional state in order to work...

There are people who have survived brain cancer with bilateral damage to the limbic and paralimbic systems and have no emotional centers in their brains...

It's irresponsible to claim this when there are individuals with no emotions and cults that function by manipulating emotions...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 26 juillet 2012 - 07:51 .

[Ageless Face]

Bill Casey wrote...

Rats can be controlled remotely by tapping into their brains and manipulating the reward centers of their brains...

Lifton studied thought reform in Chinese and Korean camps in the 50s, and it is largely reliant on the subject's emotional state in order to work...

There are people who have survived brain cancer and have no emotional centers in their brains...

Your point is?

I said emotions are one of the things that makes you individual. Not the only one. People also have different thoughts and preferences, with emotions or without them.

[Bill Casey]

And yet everyone is fine with the Reapers...

[dreman9999]

HagarIshay wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...
What?

First, Joker and EDI hugging each other. Emotions still exist, don't they? EDI also shows emotions in her speech.

Emotions one of the things making people individuals.

dreman9999 wrote...
Everyone beign indoctrinated covers that.

Bring me one proof the society in synthesis are indotrinated.

They are implanted with reaper tech to the very dna.

[dreman9999]

HagarIshay wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Rats can be controlled remotely by tapping into their brains and manipulating the reward centers of their brains...

Lifton studied thought reform in Chinese and Korean camps in the 50s, and it is largely reliant on the subject's emotional state in order to work...

There are people who have survived brain cancer and have no emotional centers in their brains...

Your point is?

I said emotions are one of the things that makes you individual. Not the only one. People also have different thoughts and preferences, with emotions or without them.

Indoctrination is a physical and psycoligical form of control. It basicly rewrites your nerions. Implants do it as well.
Your basicly letting the reaper implant everyone.