284 réponses à ce sujet

[Mazebook]

dreman9999 wrote...

maaaze wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

maaaze wrote...

i agree with the OP.

It will be not an Utopia...conflict along species lines will be a thing of the past...
but there will be still different Ideologies based on what is valued the most.

There will be still conflict...it will just not be based on physical differences.

I don't thinks so. I feel the race are indoctrinated to coesistence bythe reapers and the crucible.

If we believe what edi tells us there no indication, as i see it , that the people have no free will anymore.

How do you come to this conclusion?

The thing is, if a person is indoctrinated how would they ever know? They would not. THis is what happen to the heritic Geht if we rewrote them. They never suspected that we did write them. This is normal with evryone that's indoctrinated. Added, we really don't know what the reapers chnges in side of all organics. In doctriantion is it self is a physical and pschlogical change to organic minds or a rewrite of sysnthetic programing. The reaper have a history of this type of control and are the only once who have any understanding how synthesis is done. The starchild is also shown tohave no moral bases to how it salutions is applied.
Is see that it's the case because it themost clear cutway the catalyst has to making sure peace always stays. Indoctination in itself does nto destroy wills, it controls them with out the person knowing it.
Do we know it EDI is only happy because sheis programed to be happy?

I see...it is a possibillity but the complete opposite is as equaly possible...the reapers have now free will...they do not have to abide to the programming of the catalyst...they can choose their own path...they choose to share information. To tell them about the civilization they are based on...which implies they don´t see themselfs as reapers anymore...they are now intune with what they were. 

[Asharad Hett]

Utopia is a fallacy. It is unobtainable.

[lillitheris]

Actually, nevermind.


UNICORNS ARE AWESOME. IGNORE ALL THE BAD PARTS. THE BAD PARTS ARE DOUBLEPLUSGOOD. WE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN ALLIES WITH THE REAPERS.

Modifié par lillitheris, 26 juillet 2012 - 10:22 .

[dreman9999]

maaaze wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

maaaze wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

maaaze wrote...

i agree with the OP.

It will be not an Utopia...conflict along species lines will be a thing of the past...
but there will be still different Ideologies based on what is valued the most.

There will be still conflict...it will just not be based on physical differences.

I don't thinks so. I feel the race are indoctrinated to coesistence bythe reapers and the crucible.

If we believe what edi tells us there no indication, as i see it , that the people have no free will anymore.

How do you come to this conclusion?

The thing is, if a person is indoctrinated how would they ever know? They would not. THis is what happen to the heritic Geht if we rewrote them. They never suspected that we did write them. This is normal with evryone that's indoctrinated. Added, we really don't know what the reapers chnges in side of all organics. In doctriantion is it self is a physical and pschlogical change to organic minds or a rewrite of sysnthetic programing. The reaper have a history of this type of control and are the only once who have any understanding how synthesis is done. The starchild is also shown tohave no moral bases to how it salutions is applied.
Is see that it's the case because it themost clear cutway the catalyst has to making sure peace always stays. Indoctination in itself does nto destroy wills, it controls them with out the person knowing it.
Do we know it EDI is only happy because sheis programed to be happy?

I see...it is a possibillity but the complete opposite is as equaly possible...the reapers have now free will...they do not have to abide to the programming of the catalyst...they can choose their own path...they choose to share information. To tell them about the civilization they are based on...which implies they don´t see themselfs as reapers anymore...they are now intune with what they were. 

The reapers is the catalyst. Added, any form of indoctriantion they have is like Serans. The reapers are no choosing to give out info. Their programing is making them. Rember they are just tool.
That is what the fire metaphor the starchild uses means.

"When fire burns is it at war, in conflict or is it doing what it's made to do.....We are no different."

The catalyst and the reaper don't have the moral based to not seeing mass indoctrination as being not an option.
All it and they care about is completing their programing.

Modifié par dreman9999, 26 juillet 2012 - 10:29 .

[Mazebook]

dreman9999 wrote...

The reapers is the catalyst. Added, any form of indoctriantion they have is like Serans. The reapers are no choosing to give out info. Their programing is making them. Rember they are just tool.
That is what the fire metaphor the starchild uses means.

"When fire burns is it at war, in conflict or is it doing what it's made to do.....We are no different."

The catalyst and the reaper don't have the moral based to not seeing mass indoctrination as being not an option.

they are not just tools...they are controled but they are sentient ..."harbinger speaks of you" says they are sharing information. This also means they have different personalitys...which means they are not all the same...
to have all these traits you have to be sentient.

The catalyst is the embodyment of their intelligents...meaning knowlege...he is seperate of them but above them...
if he is no more...they are free....they can find new purpose.

Modifié par maaaze, 26 juillet 2012 - 10:34 .

[BatmanPWNS]

Utopia by brainwash, yes.

[dreman9999]

maaaze wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The reapers is the catalyst. Added, any form of indoctriantion they have is like Serans. The reapers are no choosing to give out info. Their programing is making them. Rember they are just tool.
That is what the fire metaphor the starchild uses means.

"When fire burns is it at war, in conflict or is it doing what it's made to do.....We are no different."

The catalyst and the reaper don't have the moral based to not seeing mass indoctrination as being not an option.

they are not just tools...they are controled but they are sentient ..."harbinger speaks of you" says they are sharing information. This also means they have different personalitys...which means they are not all the same...
to have all these traits you have to be sentient.

The catalyst is the embodyment of their intelligents...meaning knowlege...he is seperate of them but above them...
if he is no more...they are free....they can find new purpose.

That's the say way Seran and every reaper indoctrianted agent is like. You can still be a tool if your sentient. Seran and any reaper agent shows this.
The reapers are indoctrinated. They can have any notion theywant as long as it follow what the catalyst wants.

[RadicalDisconnect]

BatmanPWNS wrote...

Utopia by brainwash, yes.

Care to explain?

[dreman9999]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

BatmanPWNS wrote...

Utopia by brainwash, yes.

Care to explain?

What's stopping the catalyst from indoctrianting everyone with the sysnthesis choice?

[RadicalDisconnect]

dreman9999 wrote...

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

BatmanPWNS wrote...

Utopia by brainwash, yes.

Care to explain?

What's stopping the catalyst from indoctrianting everyone with the sysnthesis choice?

What's stopping the Calayst from giving you the option to destroy them? If the Calalyst can indoctrinate in synthesis (and control), then why do the reapers even bother helping rebuild ravaged worlds?

Look, I do not support the Catalyst, but when you're making criticisms, don't fall prey to using double standards...

[Mazebook]

dreman9999 wrote...

maaaze wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The reapers is the catalyst. Added, any form of indoctriantion they have is like Serans. The reapers are no choosing to give out info. Their programing is making them. Rember they are just tool.
That is what the fire metaphor the starchild uses means.

"When fire burns is it at war, in conflict or is it doing what it's made to do.....We are no different."

The catalyst and the reaper don't have the moral based to not seeing mass indoctrination as being not an option.

they are not just tools...they are controled but they are sentient ..."harbinger speaks of you" says they are sharing information. This also means they have different personalitys...which means they are not all the same...
to have all these traits you have to be sentient.

The catalyst is the embodyment of their intelligents...meaning knowlege...he is seperate of them but above them...
if he is no more...they are free....they can find new purpose.

That's the say way Seran and every reaper indoctrianted agent is like. You can still be a tool if your sentient. Seran and any reaper agent shows this.
The reapers are indoctrinated. They can have any notion theywant as long as it follow what the catalyst wants.

But what goal would the  catalyst still have ? btw. I don´t believe he exists anymore in ether ending.

The point of synthesis is that no intervention from anybody is necessery.

Because Organics and Synthetics are now more alike and can understand each other more.

indoctrination is changing the goals of the indoctrinate.
what goal does the Catalyst now follow when there are no conflict that could arise through differences?

Modifié par maaaze, 26 juillet 2012 - 11:10 .

[dreman9999]

maaaze wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

maaaze wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The reapers is the catalyst. Added, any form of indoctriantion they have is like Serans. The reapers are no choosing to give out info. Their programing is making them. Rember they are just tool.
That is what the fire metaphor the starchild uses means.

"When fire burns is it at war, in conflict or is it doing what it's made to do.....We are no different."

The catalyst and the reaper don't have the moral based to not seeing mass indoctrination as being not an option.

they are not just tools...they are controled but they are sentient ..."harbinger speaks of you" says they are sharing information. This also means they have different personalitys...which means they are not all the same...
to have all these traits you have to be sentient.

The catalyst is the embodyment of their intelligents...meaning knowlege...he is seperate of them but above them...
if he is no more...they are free....they can find new purpose.

That's the say way Seran and every reaper indoctrianted agent is like. You can still be a tool if your sentient. Seran and any reaper agent shows this.
The reapers are indoctrinated. They can have any notion they want as long as it follow what the catalyst wants.

But what goal would the  catalyst still have ? btw. I don´t believe he exists anymore in ether ending.

The point of synthesis is that no intervention from anybody is necessery.

Because Organics and Synthetics are now more alike and can understand each other more.

indoctrination is changing the goals of the indoctrinate.
what goal does the Catalyst now follow when there are no conflict that could arise through differences?

To make sure organics and synthetic are at peace. It's left just to oversee. They will have free will as long as peace goes on. It's not going to stop exsisting because it did it's goal. Nothing says or even shows that. It just won't control any were near as much.
Indoctriantion is to apply a state of thing to a being in away that is not to be question. To change their way of thinking. Synthesis is just that. Organics and synthectic never understood one another before and suddenly they do and it's not called indocrination?
The way they think is changed I hope you know.

Modifié par dreman9999, 26 juillet 2012 - 11:20 .

[phagus]

wantedman dan wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...

The more I think about it the more I realize that the age of strife I mentioned to you earlier is inevitable regardless of what you choose. With the greater threat extinguished the species will go back to competing and as certain things come to light will actively blame each other for the wrongs each has committed.

Synthesis makes it worse in fact because you've now effectively escalated the conflict by giving everyone superpowers and "superknowledge". I believe the age of strife is inevitable. If I go full pessimist, under synthesis, this leads to total annihilation of galactic society and eventual extinction for all involved.

I'm compelled to agree with this.

If Synthesis is not utopian, it will, by the very nature of our existence, lead to dystopia. 

Yes and Yes. In fact unless everyone forgets the past and there is no new animosity after synthesis conflict is inevitable. The weapons used with all this new knowledge will be even more devastating, the wars longer and an even greater possibility of all life going exinct in the galaxy. So much for Synthesis solving the Catalyst's Creators problem of Chaos. Oh and Javik would be..lets just say very angry being now part synthetic and the Reapers escaping punishment for past deeds. My guess he would want Vengence and others might feel the same way.
And yet every time I play the ending I end up choosing Synthesis.. 

[RadicalDisconnect]

dreman9999 wrote...
To make sure organics and synthetic are at peace. It's left just to oversee. They will have free will as long as peace goes on. It's not going to stop exsisting because it did it's goal. Nothing says or even shows that. It just won't control any were near as much.
Indoctriantion is to apply a state of thing to a being in away that is not to be question. To change their way of thinking. Synthesis is just that. Organics and synthectic never understood one another before and suddenly they do and it's not called indocrination?
The way they think is changed I hope you know.

The former states of the Confederate State of America never understood why African Americans can be equal to Caucasians. Now they do and it's not called indoctrination?

Modifié par RadicalDisconnect, 26 juillet 2012 - 11:28 .

[dreman9999]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

BatmanPWNS wrote...

Utopia by brainwash, yes.

Care to explain?

What's stopping the catalyst from indoctrianting everyone with the sysnthesis choice?

What's stopping the Calayst from giving you the option to destroy them? If the Calalyst can indoctrinate in synthesis (and control), then why do the reapers even bother helping rebuild ravaged worlds?

Look, I do not support the Catalyst, but when you're making criticisms, don't fall prey to using double standards...

It's programing and goals. It goal is not to reaper but to bring peace to organics and synthetics.It will do anything to do this goal with no moral basis holding it back. It  lets you destroy them because it know it no longer can stop organics for doing so one way or another. This is the last cycle it can find or apply it's salution.
Post- synthesis is the same concept. They help because there programing is to bring peace with organic and synthetics and to make sure it stays.

Modifié par dreman9999, 26 juillet 2012 - 11:34 .

[dreman9999]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
To make sure organics and synthetic are at peace. It's left just to oversee. They will have free will as long as peace goes on. It's not going to stop exsisting because it did it's goal. Nothing says or even shows that. It just won't control any were near as much.
Indoctriantion is to apply a state of thing to a being in away that is not to be question. To change their way of thinking. Synthesis is just that. Organics and synthectic never understood one another before and suddenly they do and it's not called indocrination?
The way they think is changed I hope you know.

The former states of the Confederate State of America never understood why African Americans can be equal to Caucasians. Now they do and it's not called indoctrination?

It call d collaberation. It took year for them to learn on their own with African american. And many times it had to beimposed on them. That' not the same concept with what happen with organics and synthetics in synthesis, this was a sudden change of though after a massive physical change. That is indoctrination.

[RadicalDisconnect]

dreman9999 wrote...

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

BatmanPWNS wrote...

Utopia by brainwash, yes.

Care to explain?

What's stopping the catalyst from indoctrianting everyone with the sysnthesis choice?

What's stopping the Calayst from giving you the option to destroy them? If the Calalyst can indoctrinate in synthesis (and control), then why do the reapers even bother helping rebuild ravaged worlds?

Look, I do not support the Catalyst, but when you're making criticisms, don't fall prey to using double standards...

It's programing and gaols. It goal is not to reaper but to bring peace to organics and synthetics.It will do anything to do this goal with no moral basis holding it back. It  lets you destroy them because it know it no longer can stop organics for doing so one way or another. This is the last cycle it can find or apply it's salution.
Post- synthesis is the same concept. They help because there programing is to bring peace with organic and synthetics and to make sure it stays.

If you don't chose one of the three ending on the Catalyst's terms, he will just continue the cycle. Sounds to me like he has the power to prevent his own (and the reaper's) destruction.

dreman9999 wrote...

It call d collaberation. It took year for them to learn on their own with African american. And many times it had to beimposed on them. That' not the same concept with what happen with organics and synthetics in synthesis, this was a sudden change of though after a massive physical change. That is indoctrination.

 

And acceptance of the reapers' help isn't collaboration? No one said they would instantly accept the reapers. If you observe the turians and krograns, they seemed surprised and were checking themselves out right after they got hit by green space magic. If it's indoctrination, they would act as if nothing happened.

Modifié par RadicalDisconnect, 26 juillet 2012 - 11:36 .

[dreman9999]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

BatmanPWNS wrote...

Utopia by brainwash, yes.

Care to explain?

What's stopping the catalyst from indoctrianting everyone with the sysnthesis choice?

What's stopping the Calayst from giving you the option to destroy them? If the Calalyst can indoctrinate in synthesis (and control), then why do the reapers even bother helping rebuild ravaged worlds?

Look, I do not support the Catalyst, but when you're making criticisms, don't fall prey to using double standards...

It's programing and gaols. It goal is not to reaper but to bring peace to organics and synthetics.It will do anything to do this goal with no moral basis holding it back. It  lets you destroy them because it know it no longer can stop organics for doing so one way or another. This is the last cycle it can find or apply it's salution.
Post- synthesis is the same concept. They help because there programing is to bring peace with organic and synthetics and to make sure it stays.

If you don't chose one of the three ending on the Catalyst's terms, he will just continue the cycle. Sounds to me like he has the power to prevent his own (and the reaper's) destruction.

He has no choice in the matter. It's his programing that is makinghim do that. He tells you he can't just stop the reaper and he can't just change himself.
If a machine tells you it can't stop killing because he is programed to kill  and ask you to reprogram it's programing to not kill and you refuse to, what do you think will happen?

[dreman9999]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

BatmanPWNS wrote...

Utopia by brainwash, yes.

Care to explain?

What's stopping the catalyst from indoctrianting everyone with the sysnthesis choice?

What's stopping the Calayst from giving you the option to destroy them? If the Calalyst can indoctrinate in synthesis (and control), then why do the reapers even bother helping rebuild ravaged worlds?

Look, I do not support the Catalyst, but when you're making criticisms, don't fall prey to using double standards...

It's programing and gaols. It goal is not to reaper but to bring peace to organics and synthetics.It will do anything to do this goal with no moral basis holding it back. It  lets you destroy them because it know it no longer can stop organics for doing so one way or another. This is the last cycle it can find or apply it's salution.
Post- synthesis is the same concept. They help because there programing is to bring peace with organic and synthetics and to make sure it stays.

If you don't chose one of the three ending on the Catalyst's terms, he will just continue the cycle. Sounds to me like he has the power to prevent his own (and the reaper's) destruction.

dreman9999 wrote...

It call d collaberation. It took year for them to learn on their own with African american. And many times it had to beimposed on them. That' not the same concept with what happen with organics and synthetics in synthesis, this was a sudden change of though after a massive physical change. That is indoctrination.

 

And acceptance of the reapers' help isn't collaboration? No one said they would instantly accept the reapers. If you observe the turians and krograns, they seemed surprised and were checking themselves out right after they got hit by green space magic. If it's indoctrination, they would act as if nothing happened.

Your saying that after losing friend and family to the reapers, organics will suddenly just accept the reapers?
The factt hat they don't attack the reapers in syntheis is sign enough that they are indoctrianted.

[BatmanPWNS]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

BatmanPWNS wrote...

Utopia by brainwash, yes.

Care to explain?

I fail to see how turning everyone half organic- half synthetic will just make people all accept each other. People will still dislike something, people will still be racist, some people will still hate synthetics (E.G Javik). Yet we're just told everyone is super happy after synthesis. Unless their brainwashed, not everyone can be happy with this. In fact, in a real life scenerio, people would be very angry if this type of change happened.

[RadicalDisconnect]

dreman9999 wrote...
Your saying that after losing friend and family to the reapers, organics will suddenly just accept the reapers?
The factt hat they don't attack the reapers in syntheis is sign enough that they are indoctrianted.

The quarians lost friends and family to the geth. Of course the quarians can't just accept the geth right?

dreman9999 wrote...
He has no choice in the matter. It's his programing that is makinghim do that. He tells you he can't just stop the reaper and he can't just change himself.
If a machine tells you it can't stop killing because he is programed to kill  and ask you to reprogram it's programing to not kill and you refuse to, what do you think will happen? 

No choice? He is allowing you to choose destroy. He judges whether Shepard will make a choice or not.

Modifié par RadicalDisconnect, 26 juillet 2012 - 11:45 .

[dreman9999]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Your saying that after losing friend and family to the reapers, organics will suddenly just accept the reapers?
The factt hat they don't attack the reapers in syntheis is sign enough that they are indoctrianted.

The quarians lost friends and family to the geth. Of course the quarians can't just accept the geth right?

The quarian civilians didn't want to go to war and the blame the admeral for their losses. And the gath never attacked first.

Modifié par dreman9999, 26 juillet 2012 - 11:46 .

[RadicalDisconnect]

BatmanPWNS wrote...

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

BatmanPWNS wrote...

Utopia by brainwash, yes.

Care to explain?

I fail to see how turning everyone half organic- half synthetic will just make people all accept each other. People will still dislike something, people will still be racist, some people will still hate synthetics (E.G Javik). Yet we're just told everyone is super happy after synthesis. Unless their brainwashed, not everyone can be happy with this. In fact, in a real life scenerio, people would be very angry if this type of change happened.

People seemed to be just dandy with the reapers in control. As for super happy, if you don't have Wrex, the Krogan won't restart the rebellion, but they won't start rebuilding themselves either. Doesn't sound super happy to me. People may be angry about the effects of synthesis being forced upon them and I agree, it's one of the main reasons I dislike synthesis. That doesn't necessarily mean they'll be foolhardy enough to start attacking giant reapers.

[dreman9999]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

BatmanPWNS wrote...

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

BatmanPWNS wrote...

Utopia by brainwash, yes.

Care to explain?

I fail to see how turning everyone half organic- half synthetic will just make people all accept each other. People will still dislike something, people will still be racist, some people will still hate synthetics (E.G Javik). Yet we're just told everyone is super happy after synthesis. Unless their brainwashed, not everyone can be happy with this. In fact, in a real life scenerio, people would be very angry if this type of change happened.

People seemed to be just dandy with the reapers in control. As for super happy, if you don't have Wrex, the Krogan won't restart the rebellion, but they won't start rebuilding themselves either. Doesn't sound super happy to me. People may be angry about the effects of synthesis being forced upon them and I agree, it's one of the main reasons I dislike synthesis. That doesn't necessarily mean they'll be foolhardy enough to start attacking giant reapers.

That's a lack of vision not a not everyone is happy. Note no one attackes the repaers in synthesis....Why?