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The post-Synthesis galaxy - utopia or not?


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#176
Ranger Jack Walker

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Carlthestrange wrote...

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

Synthesis is not utopia. Nor is is brainwashing eveyone into coexisting peacefully. Choose Synthesis with Wreav in charge of the Krogans. He will still be building an army. Obviously no brainwashing since he wouldn't do that otherwise.


Makes me feel that Synthesis won't solve a damn thing.


Synthesis (or any of the other endings) weren't meant to solve those internal problems. It was supposed to deal with the Organic-Synthetic war problem. Whether this 'problem' was poorly implemented or not is a different matter.

#177
Carlthestrange

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Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

Carlthestrange wrote...

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

Synthesis is not utopia. Nor is is brainwashing eveyone into coexisting peacefully. Choose Synthesis with Wreav in charge of the Krogans. He will still be building an army. Obviously no brainwashing since he wouldn't do that otherwise.


Makes me feel that Synthesis won't solve a damn thing.


Synthesis (or any of the other endings) weren't meant to solve those internal problems. It was supposed to deal with the Organic-Synthetic war problem. Whether this 'problem' was poorly implemented or not is a different matter.


Still doesn't solve anything. Nothing gonna stop the "Synthesised" humans from making more synthetics.

#178
teh DRUMPf!!

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Carlthestrange wrote...

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

Synthesis is not utopia. Nor is is brainwashing eveyone into coexisting peacefully. Choose Synthesis with Wreav in charge of the Krogans. He will still be building an army. Obviously no brainwashing since he wouldn't do that otherwise.


Makes me feel that Synthesis won't solve a damn thing.



Except for, you know, the Reapers and everything. The important part.

#179
Carlthestrange

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HYR 2.0 wrote...

Carlthestrange wrote...

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

Synthesis is not utopia. Nor is is brainwashing eveyone into coexisting peacefully. Choose Synthesis with Wreav in charge of the Krogans. He will still be building an army. Obviously no brainwashing since he wouldn't do that otherwise.


Makes me feel that Synthesis won't solve a damn thing.



Except for, you know, the Reapers and everything. The important part.


Thats what destroy is for. :)

#180
teh DRUMPf!!

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Carlthestrange wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Carlthestrange wrote...

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

Synthesis is not utopia. Nor is is brainwashing eveyone into coexisting peacefully. Choose Synthesis with Wreav in charge of the Krogans. He will still be building an army. Obviously no brainwashing since he wouldn't do that otherwise.


Makes me feel that Synthesis won't solve a damn thing.



Except for, you know, the Reapers and everything. The important part.


Thats what destroy is for. :)



Well apprently, there's more than one option. Like, allowing you to actually use them as resources. And not erasing them from memory of civilizations thousands of years down the line, when someone might decide that "preserving" organics is a good idea.

#181
Carlthestrange

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HYR 2.0 wrote...
Well apprently, there's more than one option. Like, allowing you to actually use them as resources. And not erasing them from memory of civilizations thousands of years down the line, when someone might decide that "preserving" organics is a good idea.


I'd erase them a thousand times if I could. Just my way.

#182
Ranger Jack Walker

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Carlthestrange wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Carlthestrange wrote...

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

Synthesis is not utopia. Nor is is brainwashing eveyone into coexisting peacefully. Choose Synthesis with Wreav in charge of the Krogans. He will still be building an army. Obviously no brainwashing since he wouldn't do that otherwise.


Makes me feel that Synthesis won't solve a damn thing.



Except for, you know, the Reapers and everything. The important part.


Thats what destroy is for. :)



If you can live with sacrificng your allies then so be it.

#183
Carlthestrange

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Ranger Jack Walker wrote...
If you can live with sacrificng your allies then so be it.


I have no issues blowing up a sexbot and a pile of walking toasters.

#184
Ranger Jack Walker

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Carlthestrange wrote...

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...
If you can live with sacrificng your allies then so be it.


I have no issues blowing up a sexbot and a pile of walking toasters.


Like I said, so be it. Nothing I say can change your opinion.

#185
Carlthestrange

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Thanks for that. Good to respect each others opinion.

Having said that, I do sometimes pick control. Good Renegade move for me.

#186
Ranger Jack Walker

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For me, it's not about the Geth. It's about what they represent. If sacrifing them is worth it, how many times will the belief "sacrfice a few for the many' be used again? When new wars (galaxy wide or not) start, will the species of the galaxy do the same? Sacrifice a few(relatively few) for the many?

I just feel it's a very short sighted view. A "Shoot first, ask questions later' kind of deal. Which is very much a Renegade point of view.

#187
Sonashi

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Carlthestrange wrote...

......................

Still doesn't solve anything. Nothing gonna stop the "Synthesised" humans from making more synthetics.


It's not a thing to worry about. In post synthesis world pure synthetics will never exist as well as pure organics. When the Crucible's energy was released every single atom in the universe was changed (improved if someone prefer that way). So eventually if someone will make new synthetic form it will has understanding of organics from the start.
That's because material which will be used to build them is already changed. And that's just my opinion :innocent:

#188
Jassu1979

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Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

For me, it's not about the Geth. It's about what they represent. If sacrifing them is worth it, how many times will the belief "sacrfice a few for the many' be used again? When new wars (galaxy wide or not) start, will the species of the galaxy do the same? Sacrifice a few(relatively few) for the many?

I just feel it's a very short sighted view. A "Shoot first, ask questions later' kind of deal. Which is very much a Renegade point of view.


That's not how I see it.

The options we are given are these:

1.) Embrace the genocidal enemy who has turned countless billions into gibbering monsters or new tentacle-spaceships, making peace by transforming all sentient (and non-sentient) life in the galaxy into a form that appeases the space horrors.

2.) Become one with the genocidal enemy by creating a new Reaper AI based on your memories and experiences. Expect the rest of the galaxy to embrace these horrors as allies and peacekeepers, even if their ground troops consist of former friends and family turned into gibbering horrors.

3.) Do nothing, effectively committing suicide. The next cycle will be presented with your choices again, and choose one that is more pleasing to the Catalyst/Mac Walters.

4.) Stop the Reapers once and for all, as you set out to do.

It's reprehensible that the writers tweaked the choices in a way that clearly favours embracing the reapers rather than destroying them. But with the terrible options we are given, accepting that war necessitates casualties is still the best move. Mac Walters clearly did not give us another option short of becoming the very thing that we fought for three games.

The Reapers aren't misunderstood good guys, even if the whole Holokid sequence tries to retcon the plot in that direction. They are sadistic, almost godlike gestalt-minds that conceive of organic species as nothing more than a resource, enslaving their minds, harvesting their genetic material, and turning them against former friends by manufacturing horrid ground troops.
Heck, the third installment even references death camps, where people are encouraged to betray each other (even though all inmates are destined to be culled, anyway). Seems that Mac Walters forgot all about that in writing the ending, trying to direct our sympathies towards the poor, sympathetic Starkid who just tries to save us all from annihilation, and could not think of a better solution.

#189
Ranger Jack Walker

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Well, to me, the cost is too high. Sacrificing your allies is never a good option.

#190
KiwiQuiche

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Ugh, I despise the word utopia...must've been all the Bioshock 2 I've been playing...

#191
Jassu1979

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Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

Well, to me, the cost is too high. Sacrificing your allies is never a good option.


If you do nothing, everybody dies.
If you choose one of the alternatives, the Reapers win (by either becoming the Overlords headed by the Shepard-AI or by being part of a galactic civilization of hybrids "with the strengths of both but the weaknesses of neither" (Saren Arterius).)

Given these alternatives, the cost is acceptable.
It's the officer's burden: sometimes, you have to send people to their deaths in order to prevent defeat and even more casualties. And all of your allies entered the war being perfectly willing to die if it meant saving the galaxy from the Reapers.

How did Shepard put it when she killed the Rannoch reaper?

"You - whatever species you came from, Before the Reapers decided to "preserve" them? They're dead. They died thousands of years ago. And now they can rest in peace."

We owe it to the countless cycles that came before us to see these monsters destroyed.

Modifié par Jassu1979, 28 juillet 2012 - 09:50 .


#192
Reorte

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Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

For me, it's not about the Geth. It's about what they represent. If sacrifing them is worth it, how many times will the belief "sacrfice a few for the many' be used again? When new wars (galaxy wide or not) start, will the species of the galaxy do the same? Sacrifice a few(relatively few) for the many?

I just feel it's a very short sighted view. A "Shoot first, ask questions later' kind of deal. Which is very much a Renegade point of view.

Hardly. If you aren't able to sacrifice a few for the many you'll get royally screwed over, and hey presto, in Synthesis you have. To change every single living being in the galaxy for the sake of a single species? That is completely and utterly sick. Playing that argument makes a bit more sense in Control but then it's taking a huge, massive risk for their sake.

#193
Ranger Jack Walker

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The reapers don't win in any choice. Not even in refuse. They are eventually defeated. By what way, we don't know but it is irrevelant. The game states that the reaper threat is over in the end. Your own interpreatations won;t change that.

Synthesis is not what Saren wanted. He would have been perfectly content to being a reaper slave. Synthesis is more along the lines of what Legion does at the end of the Rannoch arc.

Control is not Shepard becoming an evil overlord. Because the game directly states otherwise. Shepard becomes a guardian in paragon or leader in renegade.

But these are partly my own interpretations.

And dying in combat is a lot different then being shot in the back by your own side(which is what you do in Destroy to the Geth)

I didn't set out to destroy the reapers. I set out to save the galaxy. Initially, destroying the reapers seemed to be the only way to achieve my goal beacuse that was all we were presented with. In the end, you are provided more options. Options which don't involve shooting my allies in the back. I choose those.

Your interpretations of being indoctrinated or serving the reaper's cause mean little to me since that is not what I think happens.

#194
Reorte

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Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

I didn't set out to destroy the reapers. I set out to save the galaxy. Initially, destroying the reapers seemed to be the only way to achieve my goal beacuse that was all we were presented with. In the end, you are provided more options. Options which don't involve shooting my allies in the back. I choose those.

No, you chose to change absolutely everyone at a fundamental level or leave them at huge risk of the Reapers carrying on doing what they were doing. Both of those are far worse than killing the geth. It's damning the many to save the few.

#195
Ranger Jack Walker

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There is some sort of risk involved in every ending. I could say that if you choose destroy and without Shepard AI to ease things, chaos would set in and would lead to more wars. That is complete headcanon but it as valid as Shepard AI going insane.

And I'll say it again, for me, it's not specifically about the geth but what they represent. Once that belief about doing whatever it takes to save the many sets in, it will never stop.

#196
Reorte

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Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

There is some sort of risk involved in every ending. I could say that if you choose destroy and without Shepard AI to ease things, chaos would set in and would lead to more wars. That is complete headcanon but it as valid as Shepard AI going insane.

The difference there is that it is headcanon. Shepard AI isn't Shepard - that's grounds to worry. There are very little grounds to worry about the consequences of Destroy because there was never anything half convincing presented about the danger in the first place. What we got in-game suggest the opposite although of course you can't draw firm conclusions from such a small sample size. Synthesis doesn't even address the issue.

And I'll say it again, for me, it's not specifically about the geth but what they represent. Once that belief about doing whatever it takes to save the many sets in, it will never stop.

That's why you're stuffed if you only look at black and white. Sometimes that is necessary. Sometimes it isn't. If you take an "always or never" approach to that issue you will either come to grief or commit completely unjustified atrocities sooner or later. The only way to survive and progress is to continually assess the situation and act accordingly by being able to judge. And as I've said, by trying to avoid that issue you've almost certainly done something even worse. It's like people who say they are doing the right thing by sticking to their principles and letting Refuse get everyone killed.

Modifié par Reorte, 28 juillet 2012 - 10:45 .


#197
Jassu1979

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Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

The reapers don't win in any choice. Not even in refuse. They are eventually defeated. By what way, we don't know but it is irrevelant. The game states that the reaper threat is over in the end. Your own interpreatations won;t change that.

Refuse lets the reapers win in *this* cycle, which is all that really matters.
And in each ending where the reapers are still alive and content not to harvest all space-faring civilizations, they have essentially won. They may no longer pose a THREAT, alright - but only because they've achieved what they wanted, one way or the other.

Synthesis is not what Saren wanted. He would have been perfectly content to being a reaper slave. Synthesis is more along the lines of what Legion does at the end of the Rannoch arc.

Which was another dubious decision on the writers' part. Legion told us quite eloquently why the geth refused the Old Machines' gifts in ME2, and those reasons were more than valid: they were essential. ME3 then basically turns around and flat-out tells you that yeah, accepting an uplift from genocidal space monsters is perfectly acceptable, and does not entail any danger whatsoever.

Control is not Shepard becoming an evil overlord. Because the game directly states otherwise. Shepard becomes a guardian in paragon or leader in renegade.

Both of which translates to: Overlord.
It does not matter whether she's a ruthless Leader or a benevolent Guardian - she's still a semi-omnipotent dictator, and if you've ever read "God Emperor of Dune", you might know what that kind of leadership leads to, regardless of intentions.

And dying in combat is a lot different then being shot in the back by your own side(which is what you do in Destroy to the Geth)

No, it's more akin to letting Ashley or Kaidan die on Virmire: the Reapers need to be destroyed, and you do not have a means to save your allies from the blast.

I didn't set out to destroy the reapers. I set out to save the galaxy. Initially, destroying the reapers seemed to be the only way to achieve my goal beacuse that was all we were presented with. In the end, you are provided more options. Options which don't involve shooting my allies in the back. I choose those.

You are provided options that allow the genocidal monsters to thrive.

Your interpretations of being indoctrinated or serving the reaper's cause mean little to me since that is not what I think happens.

Indoctrination is not the issue here - achieving peace by appeasing or controlling the genocidal monsters is.
It's got nothing to do with interpretation: that's what the game flat-out tells and shows you.
Control turns Shepard into a Reaper AI.
Synthesis causes the Reapers to stand down because they're content with being surrounded by techno-organic hybrids.
None of these is a viable option.

#198
Ranger Jack Walker

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Jassu1979 wrote...

You are provided options that allow the genocidal monsters to thrive.


Or you can stop the genocidal monsters by commiting a genocide of your own.

#199
Reorte

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Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

Jassu1979 wrote...

You are provided options that allow the genocidal monsters to thrive.


Or you can stop the genocidal monsters by commiting a genocide of your own.

Genocide of your own? Well, if you actually set out to wipe out the geth but if that's what you wanted then you probably did that back on Rannoch. I've had to explain numerous times that genocide requires intention - the reason you are doing the action you are doing is to kill the people you are killing. If that's not the case then it's not genocide. It might not be nice, it might not be justifiable, but it's not genocide. There have been trials in the Hague for genocide that have revolved around that.

Besides, it's all very well not liking the stupidly forced negatives of Destroy but as I also keep saying those negatives aren't as bad as the alternatives.

Modifié par Reorte, 28 juillet 2012 - 11:03 .


#200
Jassu1979

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Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

There is some sort of risk involved in every ending. I could say that if you choose destroy and without Shepard AI to ease things, chaos would set in and would lead to more wars. That is complete headcanon but it as valid as Shepard AI going insane.

The Shepard AI does not need to go insane in order to be a very negative factor in terms of galactic civilization.
At best, it's a benevolent dictator. At worst, it's a ruthless dictator. In every case, whether as Space Police or as Grand Leader, the results will be far from desirable.