284 réponses à ce sujet

[gert56nom]

I personlay just find synthesis ending creepy, I dont mean al the glowing eyes but EDI's voice over .
Its so out of character from the one we've seen grow throught ME2 & ME3
& then theres the referances of made by Mordin about how the collectors were created

[Ieldra]

Jassu1979 wrote...

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

There is some sort of risk involved in every ending. I could say that if you choose destroy and without Shepard AI to ease things, chaos would set in and would lead to more wars. That is complete headcanon but it as valid as Shepard AI going insane.

The Shepard AI does not need to go insane in order to be a very negative factor in terms of galactic civilization.
At best, it's a benevolent dictator. At worst, it's a ruthless dictator. In every case, whether as Space Police or as Grand Leader, the results will be far from desirable.

There is no necessary connection between autocratic rule and undesirable results. Also, what is desirable or not depends on your viewpoint.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 juillet 2012 - 11:44 .

[Jassu1979]

Ieldra2 wrote...

There is no necessary connection between autocratic rule and undesirable results. Also, what is desirable or not depends on your viewpoint.

Ah, but the Mass Effect series has upheld very specific values: diversity, individual liberty, independence.
All of these are stifled under an autocratic government, due to the very nature of such an arrangement.

Sure, fascists and (ironically) communists of the Lenin school may find the notion of "Strength Through Unity" under a benevolent Leader more than a little appealing, so up to a certain degree, it is indeed a question of one's viewpoint.
But going simply by what the games themselves have to say about the ideals Shepard is fighting for, making yourself the immortal God-Emperor runs contrary to the very spirit of the protagonist.

[Stormghost]

Just finished my second ME2&3 playthrough last night, and it was my first time with the Extended Cut. I picked synthesis, and for me it seems the best option available. Control creates some sort of Shepard-Dictator-God, which I find horrifying, even if he is a benevolent ruler. Destroy fits the original mission objective, but obliterates the Geth and EDI, which I could not do in good conscience. Also, as mentioned in this thread, future generations would forget the Reaper/AI threat and create their own out-of-control machines, effectively starting the organic/synthetic conflict over again.

Synthesis solves the problem by removing the distinction between the two. It may not destroy the Reapers, but it makes their plan redundant and leads to them helping to rebuild. Synthesis is the only way the organic/synthetic conflict can be resolved permanently, and it does so without wiping out the previous civilizations trapped in the Reapers. It allows them to share their knowledge and be part of the galaxy forever. It's not a utopia, but it is, as the OP said, a Golden Age.

[Jassu1979]

davidk1991 wrote...
 Also, as mentioned in this thread, future generations would forget the Reaper/AI threat and create their own out-of-control machines, effectively starting the organic/synthetic conflict over again.

That's if you believe the Catalyst/Mac Walters and his insane justification for the Cycle. Personally, I find it far more likely that the galaxy would achieve a form of synthesis on its own terms - just like the geth and the quarians did. There's no need for the sort of uplifting that's brought on by green space magic.

Synthesis solves the problem by removing the distinction between the two.

Not really, as the distinction between the two is not at the heart of the problem to begin with - even according to what the Catalyst tells you.
The problem is that artificial intelligences will at some point surpass their creators, and then probably conclude that the inferior beings needlessly muddle things up and ought to be removed from the equation. There's no reason why the same thing should not happen to techno-organic hybrids - unless they are SO unlike their old selves that you've basically eradicated every single sentient being in the universe and put a demigod in its place.

It may not destroy the Reapers, but it makes their plan redundant and leads to them helping to rebuild.

Oh yeah, and that is something we all dearly desire - especially when they send the now-sentient Brute over to our construction site. Sure, its head used to belong to our uncle Varrius Coriolan, and its body consists of a couple of krogan mercenaries that we used to work with, but whatever. I'm sure everybody is happy.

Synthesis is the only way the organic/synthetic conflict can be resolved permanently, and it does so without wiping out the previous civilizations trapped in the Reapers.

The previous civilizations are dead and gone, and to let the Reapers live is an affront to their very memory, denying them the peace that they deserve after suffering such a cruel fate.

[Wayning_Star]

davidk1991 wrote...

Just finished my second ME2&3 playthrough last night, and it was my first time with the Extended Cut. I picked synthesis, and for me it seems the best option available. Control creates some sort of Shepard-Dictator-God, which I find horrifying, even if he is a benevolent ruler. Destroy fits the original mission objective, but obliterates the Geth and EDI, which I could not do in good conscience. Also, as mentioned in this thread, future generations would forget the Reaper/AI threat and create their own out-of-control machines, effectively starting the organic/synthetic conflict over again.

Synthesis solves the problem by removing the distinction between the two. It may not destroy the Reapers, but it makes their plan redundant and leads to them helping to rebuild. Synthesis is the only way the organic/synthetic conflict can be resolved permanently, and it does so without wiping out the previous civilizations trapped in the Reapers. It allows them to share their knowledge and be part of the galaxy forever. It's not a utopia, but it is, as the OP said, a Golden Age.

Makes for a good synthesis canon, but synthesis 'does' get rid of the reapers, they're not the same at all after the synthesis,niether are organics. It's hard to understand, but it's a "We know and They know thing, some detractors don't want to go that route though and It doesn't seem to mean anything to some who don't want to understand, as they'll bring up stuff they've forgotten, as new arguements against anything synthesis. It's like they really don't like synthetics anymore than a person would like a toaster,even if sentient,especially if sapient. They see it as some sort of 'threat' image, call it utopia for lack of a better way to disparage the idea, and refuse to accept it. Many would accept a despot instead of sharing even the slightest humanity with synthetic beings. I believe they just feel they need to "punish" the synthetic catalyst, getting rid of the reapers isn't enough. Many fail to realize that the entire battle is with the catalyst creators, not the catalyst, per se. They are the ones behind the choices and are responsible for reprogramming the catalyst. It all started with it, and must end with it. I think they're insectoid beings of strange logic and form of logic over emotion...but that's another story.

[Wayning_Star]

Jassu1979 wrote...

davidk1991 wrote...
 Also, as mentioned in this thread, future generations would forget the Reaper/AI threat and create their own out-of-control machines, effectively starting the organic/synthetic conflict over again.

That's if you believe the Catalyst/Mac Walters and his insane justification for the Cycle. Personally, I find it far more likely that the galaxy would achieve a form of synthesis on its own terms - just like the geth and the quarians did. There's no need for the sort of uplifting that's brought on by green space magic.

Synthesis solves the problem by removing the distinction between the two.

Not really, as the distinction between the two is not at the heart of the problem to begin with - even according to what the Catalyst tells you.
The problem is that artificial intelligences will at some point surpass their creators, and then probably conclude that the inferior beings needlessly muddle things up and ought to be removed from the equation. There's no reason why the same thing should not happen to techno-organic hybrids - unless they are SO unlike their old selves that you've basically eradicated every single sentient being in the universe and put a demigod in its place.

It may not destroy the Reapers, but it makes their plan redundant and leads to them helping to rebuild.

Oh yeah, and that is something we all dearly desire - especially when they send the now-sentient Brute over to our construction site. Sure, its head used to belong to our uncle Varrius Coriolan, and its body consists of a couple of krogan mercenaries that we used to work with, but whatever. I'm sure everybody is happy.

Synthesis is the only way the organic/synthetic conflict can be resolved permanently, and it does so without wiping out the previous civilizations trapped in the Reapers.

The previous civilizations are dead and gone, and to let the Reapers live is an affront to their very memory, denying them the peace that they deserve after suffering such a cruel fate.

 like their medical staff cannot handle a few casualties,and those creatures would undoubtedly be repaired eventually as the society advances. They were reengineered once, they can be fixed up. Just  matter of time. Besides if not synthesis,we'll be responsible for just "more of the same". Face it, it's just an ego trip, what with all these excuses. Technically, there may be three other choices, but they're moot in regard to the out come of any. It's the fact that there is not other choice no matter what you do, it all comes down to sacrifices..for all concerned..and folks just plain don't like it. I suggest jewel quest.

[Jassu1979]

Arcian wrote...

Jassu1979 wrote...

The previous civilizations are dead and gone, and to let the Reapers live is an affront to their very memory, denying them the peace that they deserve after suffering such a cruel fate.

No, their memories and consciousness have been preserved in Reaper forms. If you destroy the Reapers, you wipe out more than one billion years of knowledge and history that could benefit future generations.

Shepard disagrees.

Shepard [to the dying Reaper on Rannoch]:
"You - whatever species you came from before the Reapers decided to "preserve" them? They're dead. They died thousands of years ago." [Reaper dies.] "And now, they can rest in peace."

We've seen in ME2 what being "preserved in Reaper form" means. Sentient beings screaming in terror and unbearable pain as their bodies are liquefied and ripped apart by nanites, only to become building blocks for new genocidal space monsters who'll do the same to the next generation of space-faring civilizations. It's not something you'd wish for your worst enemy, and we most certainly owe it to these bygone species to make sure that the abominations who've been crafted from their bodies and minds are eradicated from the galaxy, once and for all.

Modifié par Jassu1979, 28 juillet 2012 - 02:06 .

[Lord Goose]

Ah, but the Mass Effect series has upheld very specific values:
diversity, individual liberty, independence.
All of these are stifled under an autocratic government, due
to the very nature of such an arrangement.

If you have played Paragon, yes. But why would Paragon, who upheld the same standarts do anything, when he becomes AI? Unless he is going insane, of course.

If you have played Renegade, when, no. Renegade clearly does not believe that people are fine on their own.

[Wayning_Star]

Jassu1979 wrote...

Arcian wrote...

Jassu1979 wrote...

The previous civilizations are dead and gone, and to let the Reapers live is an affront to their very memory, denying them the peace that they deserve after suffering such a cruel fate.

No, their memories and consciousness have been preserved in Reaper forms. If you destroy the Reapers, you wipe out more than one billion years of knowledge and history that could benefit future generations.

Shepard disagrees.

Shepard [to the dying Reaper on Rannoch]:
"You - whatever species you came from before the Reapers decided to "preserve" them? They're dead. They died thousands of years ago." [Reaper dies.] "And now, they can rest in peace."

We've seen in ME2 what being "preserved in Reaper form" means. Sentient beings screaming in terror and unbearable pain as their bodies are liquefied and ripped apart by nanites, only to become building blocks for new genocidal space monsters who'll do the same to the next generation of space-faring civilizations. It's not something you'd wish for your worst enemy, and we most certainly owe it to these bygone species to make sure that the abominations who've been crafted from their bodies and minds are eradicated from the galaxy, once and for all.

punishing a reaper for being a reapers is like punishing your car for having a broken piston. You 'can' do it, but it won't change the piston..and it'll just hurt your foot.. (I know this, cause I've done it...punish my car, not a reaper tho..

Edit: Sheperd is wrong, he ain't perfect as he has no actual knowledge of the what it means to be be "preserved" by a reaper, no more than he knows how their creators think, or what even happened to those 'thousands of years ago'. One thing about machines, they'll do exactly as they're programmed, unless they end up sapient, then, they argue about anything that pops into their heads out of respite. Reaper didn't die, it went dormant. Later, when they disassembled it and completely drained it's power cells, it expired, an probably took all those in it, with it.

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 28 juillet 2012 - 02:17 .

[Jassu1979]

Wayning_Star wrote...
 Many fail to realize that the entire battle is with the catalyst creators, not the catalyst, per se. They are the ones behind the choices and are responsible for reprogramming the catalyst.

It seems you did not really pay attention.
The Catalyst's creators are dead - they were the first victims of the AI's "final solution", becoming the involuntary building blocks of the first Reaper. They created the Catalyst believing that it would help them to achieve a lasting peace, yet its solution to the (perceived, but not necessarily factual) threat of universal genocide at the hands of a post-singularity AI was a *slightly* smaller genocide, limited to advanced civilizations.

Modifié par Jassu1979, 28 juillet 2012 - 02:20 .

[Jassu1979]

Wayning_Star wrote...
punishing a reaper for being a reapers is like punishing your car for having a broken piston. You 'can' do it, but it won't change the piston..and it'll just hurt your foot.. (I know this, cause I've done it...punish my car, not a reaper tho..

Dude, your "logic" is ground-breaking. I bet you were fond of the Catalyst's "when a fire burns, is it at war"-line in all of its epic stupidity.
No amount of last-minute retconning on the part of Walters and Hudson can eradicate the sheer amount of deliberate malevolence that the Reapers betray throughout the series: in their tactics, in their dialogue, in their very modus operandi. These aren't blind automatons stupidly following a program - that would render them less of a true AI than the geth in their unmodified state. They are consistently described as almost godlike gestalt intelligences, each of them a nation in itself, looking upon the species they harvest as we'd look upon poultry .

[Wayning_Star]

Jassu1979 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...
 Many fail to realize that the entire battle is with the catalyst creators, not the catalyst, per se. They are the ones behind the choices and are responsible for reprogramming the catalyst.

It seems you did not really pay attention.
The Catalyst's creators are dead - they were the first victims of the AI's "final solution", becoming the involuntary building blocks of the first Reaper. They created the Catalyst believing that it would help them to achieve a lasting peace, yet its solution to the (perceived, but not necessary actual) threat of universal genocide at the hands of a post-singularity AI was a *slightly* smaller genocide, limited to advanced civilizations.

then who is Leviathan and why is he rogue? We don't know anything about their creators, even the catalyst is in the belief that they're gone. It's programming requires it to accept its self as the only one around, but it doesn't mean there aren't some of those left around. Reapers hid out in dark space, where do you spose they got that idea? Besides, the creators are the only ones capable of designing the crucible, and probably building it as well, and the MEU couldn't be that lucky. As far as genocide, Impossible to do that for machines, sapient being yes, not machines, they follow protocols, that's it. That is the problem with the cycle, it's the basis for it, that machines will destroy organics. They created a machine to do one thing, then the machine broke/got sentient but didn't make it to sapient, that is ponder 'right vs wrong'. That's why it's a nobrainer for not expecting to gain emotional satisfaction from punishing a machine to "correct" a social violation..

Edit: another fact to consider, Who brought Shepard back to life and why, say the illusive man and I will laugh out loud. He was indoctrinated by, guess who, the CATALYST.. well, duh.. Why would the catalyst do that? He didn't that's why. The MEU is one seeeeaaaky universe.

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 28 juillet 2012 - 02:29 .

[Wayning_Star]

Jassu1979 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...
punishing a reaper for being a reapers is like punishing your car for having a broken piston. You 'can' do it, but it won't change the piston..and it'll just hurt your foot.. (I know this, cause I've done it...punish my car, not a reaper tho..

Dude, your "logic" is ground-breaking. I bet you were fond of the Catalyst's "when a fire burns, is it at war"-line in all of its epic stupidity.
No amount of last-minute retconning on the part of Walters and Hudson can eradicate the sheer amount of deliberate malevolence that the Reapers betray throughout the series: in their tactics, in their dialogue, in their very modus operandi. These aren't blind automatons stupidly following a program - that would render them less of a true AI than the geth in their unmodified state. They are consistently described as almost godlike gestalt intelligences, each of them a nation in itself, looking upon the species they harvest as we'd look upon poultry .

lol, thats the facts, enventhough its tragic, the fact are as they are, the reapers are 'super' but stupid as a toaster oven. Any being other than that couldn't do the job...too gross.

[Ieldra]

Jassu1979 wrote...

Arcian wrote...

Jassu1979 wrote...

The previous civilizations are dead and gone, and to let the Reapers live is an affront to their very memory, denying them the peace that they deserve after suffering such a cruel fate.

No, their memories and consciousness have been preserved in Reaper forms. If you destroy the Reapers, you wipe out more than one billion years of knowledge and history that could benefit future generations.

Shepard disagrees.

Shepard [to the dying Reaper on Rannoch]:
"You - whatever species you came from before the Reapers decided to "preserve" them? They're dead. They died thousands of years ago." [Reaper dies.] "And now, they can rest in peace."

Well, no. You get that line only if you use the upper left option. There are two other options there. Since my goal is always to understand things, I almost always use the left option.

We've seen in ME2 what being "preserved in Reaper form" means. Sentient beings screaming in terror and unbearable pain as their bodies are liquefied and ripped apart by nanites, only to become building blocks for new genocidal space monsters who'll do the same to the next generation of space-faring civilizations. It's not something you'd wish for your worst enemy, and we most certainly owe it to these bygone species to make sure that the abominations who've been crafted from their bodies and minds are eradicated from the galaxy, once and for all.

There is no such thing as an "abomination". No matter how a life form comes into being, once it exists, it must be judged on its own merits and flaws. Of course you can speculate that the uploaded minds still exist and that this existence is a fate worse than death for them, and draw justification for destroying them from that. But that's all that it is: speculation. It is not a foregone conclusion.

Read the extended arguments about the nature of the Reapers in my old thread On the nature of the Catalyst and the Reapers, and why Synthesis is an attractive choice.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 juillet 2012 - 02:38 .

[lillitheris]

Wayning_Star wrote...

then who is Leviathan and why is he rogue?

1. What Leviathan? No such info in the game.

2. You mean the one that they’re retconning to be ‘rogue’ after the fact to try to bolster their s— favored solution? Like I said, all future DLC will further dismantle the ME universe to prop up Synthesis.

Modifié par lillitheris, 28 juillet 2012 - 02:50 .

[lillitheris]

Ieldra2 wrote...

There is no such thing as an "abomination". No matter how a life form comes into being, once it exists, it must be judged on its own merits and flaws. Of course you can speculate that the uploaded minds still exist and that this existence is a fate worse than death for them, and draw justification for destroying them from that. But that's all that it is: speculation. It is not a foregone conclusion.

That’s valid in a vacuum. If it was just about the Reapers, you could afford such speculation. As it is, you can’t.

[Ranger Jack Walker]

They are not retconning anything. We know nothing about Leviathan and it's rogue status.

[lillitheris]

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

 We know nothing about Leviathan and it's rogue status.

That’s obvious. That’s also why they’re retconning it (from its original purpose).

[Ranger Jack Walker]

I think you need to learn what a retcon is.

We know nothing about Leviathan. It is literally impossible to retcon anything about it.

[Shadowvalker]

How come this supject always seems to activate a certain chip on everyone's shoulders?

Oh - yeah.. Because we now all have such ones...:!

[Jassu1979]

Ieldra2 wrote...

There is no such thing as an "abomination". No matter how a life form comes into being, once it exists, it must be judged on its own merits and flaws. Of course you can speculate that the uploaded minds still exist and that this existence is a fate worse than death for them, and draw justification for destroying them from that. But that's all that it is: speculation. It is not a foregone conclusion.

Read the extended arguments about the nature of the Reapers in my old thread On the nature of the Catalyst and the Reapers, and why Synthesis is an attractive choice.

No, thank you. In this thread alone, I've seen you defend both autocratic government and a species that subjects sapient beings to unspeakable horrors, and my desire for more of the same is very limited.

In the end, your transhumanist "golden age" is built on the backs of all the "processed" species who are denied even the peace of the grave, after going through this:



Her name was Lilith, and she's but one of the uncounted victims of the Catalyst's "final solution". No Reaper is innocent of this - except perhaps for Leviathan, if Walters et.al. actually end up making the ME universe even more stupid than it already is after the whole ending debacle.

[Mystiq6]

Bless my heart but I started writing a fan fiction where Synthesis just results in even more conflict because I can't see how everyone would just forgive one another for millions of years of action. The entire galaxy is practically in civil revolt. Some people are upset at what they have become and some of them killed themselves. Some people are trying to bring organics back, which has resulted in organics being grown in test tubes. This is inevitable because after a billion years, organic life is going to grow anyway. Some people are trying to fly to other galaxies to force Synthesis on them or simply wipe them out and turn them into reapers. And some people are still afraid of the reapers.

[Wayning_Star]

Shadowvalker wrote...

How come this supject always seems to activate a certain chip on everyone's shoulders?

Oh - yeah.. Because we now all have such ones...:!

cause they're mad at the reapers and catalyst, they cannot figure out why it's so obvious,but uncanny, to suspect that synthesis is the only option given by the actual antagonist in the game, the unseen builders of the aformentioned original 'offenders' of their limited perspective of the MEU and it's contents. Most rely on the codex to shape decisions, but narry a thought to the fact that it's not all inclusive and that some,most important "stuff"has to be wrought from extra sensory notion, or empathy and intuition. A player has to 'feel' the intent and subtle guides through out the three games to see the 'big picture'. Sure, we can just slam a few hours into it, make snap decisions and grab what's left in the process.But this ignores actual 'immersion" in the MEU. There has always been dark and not so dark forces at work in the back ground from game one. The only answer for that is, that some one, or some thing is pulling strings from, say, dark space(remember dark space, the "idea" that was supposed to be canned for other plots...it wasn't, completely.) I believe that this is the biggest reason why ME3 was so frustrating and to some aggravating, and the choices were all players could get "UP" about..lol Maybe Bioware miffed it on this 'undertow' thing, but personally think it's cool. I'm all for that multiple dimentional headcanon canon myself..others,not so much. I mean, folks here don't even know who or what Liviathon is cause it isn't in their trusty, but not so cosmic codex. I yet to get even ONE response about why and how the illusive man got the instant know how to bring shepard back to fight reapers, and why an indoctrinated lacky for the catalyst, would even bother when it apparently sent collectors after Shep in the first place. They don't act on their own, they're indoctrinated themselves, servants of the cycle,and maybe some one else... These are not plot holes, but 'hints' of that undertow. Didn't anyone get the hint of why Shepard could read the beacons? Maybe his 'genes' were just lucky that way,eh. It wasn't explained, just some hypotheticals about it from here and there, cause nobody 'knew' and its not common knowlege, but everyone quickly ignored it, but said the dreams were indoctrination station... Anything but the obvious, cause they're all mad at and determined to punish the reapers/catalyst. Can't quite admit that we cannot punish some thing and certainly not some one that doesn't exist in the MEU. (until they make themselve known to us, I wonder if they ever will..choice depending?)