251 réponses à ce sujet

[sporeian]

As we all know, The Crucible and The Catalyst tend to be the very incarnation of DEM. However, it was kind of inevitable considering the unconventional means needed to defeat the reapers. 

[David7204]

They could have done a better job introducing and explaining the Crucible...then, yes, it wouldn't have come across as a Deus Ex Machina...

And frankly, the Catalyst is not a Deus Ex Machina. It was obvious right from the beginning that the Reapers had to have had a leader and a motive. Nor does his introduction really solve any of Shepard's problems. The Crucible could have just fired and killed all the Reapers and the game could have ended there.

It would really be nice if people actually knew what they were talking about when the dropped phrases like "Deus Ex Machina" and "plot hole." Believe it or not, they're actually meaningful phrases, and not meant to be dropped as a catch all term for whatever you don't like in a story.

Modifié par David7204, 26 juillet 2012 - 09:14 .

[Iakus]

They could have focused ME2 on finding ways to stop the Reapers. But when they failed to do that, a deus ex machina was inevitible.

Still could have been done better though.

[David7204]

No, it wasn't inevitable.

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

Well, the Crucible isn't really that much of a DXM in the first place, seeing as how it requires a tremendous effort to build and transport. While it's established in a similar fashion, it's not quite the same thing.

[CaptainZaysh]

They could have introduced the Crucible right at the start of the story, and had all the protagonist's efforts revolve around building and deploying it.

Hmmm.

[PoisonMushroom]

Felt like the way Sovereign was taken down could have lead to some faux science solution for taking down all Reapers. Doubt it would have been any better than the Crucible though.

[David7204]

I really hope that upcoming DLC gives more information on the Crucible and the Reapers...

[DeathWingKingUltimate]

No it wasn't. They had the option to not to INCLUDE the reaper invasion from the beginning and instead using the ME3 story itself to stop them getting to galaxy or instead of destroying/subduing the reaper race banishing them or whatever you can think of. They instead went with finishing the reaper story arc. They were good villain, they deserved better defeat treatment...

[Reorte]

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

Well, the Crucible isn't really that much of a DXM in the first place, seeing as how it requires a tremendous effort to build and transport. While it's established in a similar fashion, it's not quite the same thing.

It's still a device that gets everyone out of the hole (sort of) in one simple event. Is it not a DEM because it's been around all the time anyway? The gods from the original DEM weren't invented out of thin air to sort the plot out at the end either, although their introduction into the story might've been for all I know.

Whatever you want to call it anything that is a simple "Enemies defeated!" button is an unimaginative and unconvincing resolution.

[3DandBeyond]

David7204 wrote...

They could have done a better job introducing and explaining the Crucible...then, yes, it wouldn't have come across as a Deus Ex Machina...

And frankly, the Catalyst is not a Deus Ex Machina. It was obvious right from the beginning that the Reapers had to have had a leader and a motive. Nor does his introduction really solve any of Shepard's problems. The Crucible could have just fired and killed all the Reapers and the game could have ended there.

It would really be nice if people actually knew what they were talking about when the dropped phrases like "Deus Ex Machina" and "plot hole." Believe it or not, they're actually meaningful phrases, and not meant to be dropped as a catch all term for whatever you don't like in a story.

 

The crucible is a MacGuffin. 

The catalyst is used as a Deus ex Machina and meant by the devs to be one.  It is players that say that he does not solve Shepard's problems, but he was put there by the devs to do that.  It's because the writers created plot holes that he's just not a good one and functions as the Anti-DeM.  It was because the Crucible is not just some sort of gun that the catalyst is there and is a DeM (or anti-DeM).  The writers clearly mean for him to be the solution because refusing his options is suicide, game over.

It is in no way obvious that the reapers have a leader and a motive.  In fact, Sovereign says the exact opposite and Legion further supports this.  They are independent nations.  That means they are in control of themselves.  Their motives are irrelevant.  Ever see the movie Jaws.  In it there's no need to know the shark's motives.  It's eating people, kill it.  Players want to know about the reapers' motives and origins, Shepard never really does.  All that was not needed in order to destroy them and could have been within the denouement or epilogue or even DLC.

The crucible if it became some sort of weapon or even just a device that weakens the reapers isn't going to be a DeM because it's there at the start with explanation.  It might always be a MacGuffin but it's being created and doesn't drop in from nowhere with no real backstory and isn't abruptly solving anything.

A plot hole is a plot hole.  I mean it refers to lapses in consistency with the plot.  Obviously something that's essential to the outcome.  I don't see people misusing it at all.  There were several with the original endings and more created with the EC in different places.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 26 juillet 2012 - 09:47 .

[Obeded the 2nd]

"Whip out your dick and ****** on all of them"-Yusuf

Great way to end a trilogy IMO

[3DandBeyond]

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

"Whip out your dick and ****** on all of them"-Yusuf

Great way to end a trilogy IMO

That would be a better ending.

[Dean_the_Young]

sporeian wrote...

As we all know, The Crucible and The Catalyst tend to be the very incarnation of DEM. However, it was kind of inevitable considering the unconventional means needed to defeat the reapers. 

People who know that don't know what a Deus Ex Machina actually is.

[Bill Casey]

DiabolusExMachina

Diabolus ex Machina

"This is not the convenient plot twist that saves our heroes. This is the convenient plot twist that makes them even more screwed."

— Ryan MC, Two Evil Scientists


Diabolus ex Machina (Demon from the machine) is the Evil Counterpart of Deus ex Machina: the introduction of an some unexpected new event, character, ability or object designed to ensure that things suddenly get much worse for the protagonists, much better for the villains, or both. Observers of this trope should note three things:

• 1. Diabolus ex Machina is often brought in simply because if the villain were to lose, the work of fiction would be over. Like the Deus Ex Machina, it only applies if it comes out of left field.
• 2. Like the Deus Ex Machina, a Diabolus Ex Machina does not necessarily occur at the end. Though it often overlaps with Ending Tropes, it should not be confused for one.
• 3. The Diabolus ex Machina, while a very common Pet Peeve Trope when used for a Downer Ending, can be pulled off - See the entire "Rule of X" series of tropes.

If a movie ends with a Death By Sigh Of Relief of the last surviving character, it may be this. Compare Diabolus Ex Nihilo, Ass Pull, and Cruel Twist Ending. Likely to be employed by writers who believe that True Art Is Angsty.

Modifié par Bill Casey, 26 juillet 2012 - 10:21 .

[BatmanPWNS]

They should have revealed it in ME2 really.

[SuperMegaWolf]

BatmanPWNS wrote...

They should have revealed it in ME2 really.

Yeah. The problem began with ME2.

[Omega2079]

It was the kind of ending they wanted. If they wanted something else, it would have been different.

[blueumi]

i'm sorry mass effect 1 and 2 showed we could fight them and that harbenger was who we had to face
the game really should have a boss fight and not star child
it's like shep is a god or something making a choice that could change the dna and lives of everyone
it went so far off the clif that it made it impossible to relate to or to care

also how can they continue this it seems beyond me

[Those Protheans]

There is always a way but it is hard to find and maybe they couldn't find it.


That said the deus ex machina they used was awful and a terrible uninteresting one that can not be explained in the slightest.

[Romaka]

Fact is they had the basis for including something with the ending of Mass Effect 2. The datapad Joker hands Shepard in the ending could have had information on it that would have been useful to the fight. Who knows what type of information was on that datapad or if there were more of them. But as with many things it was forgotten and nothing ever came of it.

[NightShadow1800]

-Unite the galaxy unlike anyone's seen before (war readiness must be max)
-Kill the Reapers with said army (without that little star child pricks help)
-Wipe the star child's AI out of existence as punishment for the countless lives he's killed
-Shepard reunited with his/her crew
-End

[SuperMegaWolf]

NightShadow1800 wrote...

-Unite the galaxy unlike anyone's seen before (war readiness must be max)
-Kill the Reapers with said army (without that little star child pricks help)
-Wipe the star child's AI out of existence as punishment for the countless lives he's killed
-Shepard reunited with his/her crew
-End

Had me2 advanced the "hey lets find a way to fight the reapers and prove that they're real" vibe from the end of ME1 this would have been a viable option for ME3.

[The Spamming Troll]

theres only one reason a deus ex machina was used: bioware is not good enough.

i think comparing ME3s story to talis photoshopped face is a fairly apt comparison. and i mean that in a very bad way.

can i play a bioware game made by all the people that currently arent working with bioware anymore????

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 26 juillet 2012 - 11:19 .