251 réponses à ce sujet

[Han Shot First]

No, not unless Mass Effect 2 was a very different game. In order for the civilizations of the galaxy to have defeated the Reapers conventionally without destroying suspension of belief, those civilizations would have had to narrow the technological gap between themselves and the Reapers. That could have only happened in Mass Effect 2. By the time the Reapers invade it is far too late.

That being said the Deus Ex Machina label is sometimes overused by gamers, and often incorrectly. A superweapon isn't a deus ex machina if it has been foreshadowed.

Bioware could have had an awesome ending that also involved a superweapon. They just didn't implement it well.

[AresKeith]

Han Shot First wrote...

No, not unless Mass Effect 2 was a very different game. In order for the civilizations of the galaxy to have defeated the Reapers conventionally without destroying suspension of belief, those civilizations would have had to narrow the technological gap between themselves and the Reapers. That could have only happened in Mass Effect 2. By the time the Reapers invade it is far too late.

That being said the Deus Ex Machina label is sometimes overused by gamers, and often incorrectly. A superweapon isn't a deus ex machina if it has been foreshadowed.

Bioware could have had an awesome ending that also involved a superweapon. They just didn't implement it well.

they said how they showed the Catalyst was a Deus Ex Machina

[Han Shot First]

I'm not arguing that the Catalyst wasn't a Deus Ex Machina.

I'm saying that a superweapon is not necessarily a deus ex machina, if it is foreshadowed in the story. A lot of people on the BSN equate winning by superweapon in a game as automatically being a DEM, when it isn't.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 28 juillet 2012 - 05:50 .

[TheCrazyHobo]

--The Crucible:
1.In the Mass Effect Trilogy: Arguably Yes.
2. In Mass Effect 3: Arguably No.
--The Catalyst
1. In the Mass Effect Trilogy: Arguably Yes.
2. In Mass Effect 3: Arguably Yes, depends on considerations regarding Vendetta's statements.

On a side note, the current EC endings seem to be a tribute to the Deus Ex series.

[avenging_teabag]

Klijpope wrote...

If the Crucible is a DEM then the Conduit certainly is. 

Not even close, and for two reasons:
1. the basic feature of a DEM is that it solves an unsolvable plot problem. The Conduit in and of itself doesn't do that, as it trned out, it was just a gateway for the protagonist to reach his final destination; it's only one bit of information, albeit an important one. 2. the conduit was estabished as an important piece of the puzzle that we started to assemble since the first minutes of ME1 - beacons, Saren, Protheans, Reapers, Mu relay, Conduit, Ilos. And finally, on Ilos, Vigil explains what the Conduit really is. It all flows logically one from the other, and the Conduit caomes as a reward for a long, hard search, unlike the Crucible, that pretty much drops onto our lap.

Modifié par avenging_teabag, 28 juillet 2012 - 07:10 .

[AlanC9]

Han Shot First wrote...

No, not unless Mass Effect 2 was a very different game. In order for the civilizations of the galaxy to have defeated the Reapers conventionally without destroying suspension of belief, those civilizations would have had to narrow the technological gap between themselves and the Reapers. That could have only happened in Mass Effect 2. By the time the Reapers invade it is far too late.

I think ME2 could have been mostly the same, actually. The Collector Base could have provided the information necessary to narrow the technological gap. if only Shepard had been prevented from being an idiot and destroying it.

[Dean_the_Young]

avenging_teabag wrote...

Klijpope wrote...

If the Crucible is a DEM then the Conduit certainly is. 

Not even close, and for two reasons:
1. the basic feature of a DEM is that it solves an unsolvable plot problem. The Conduit in and of itself doesn't do that, as it trned out, it was just a gateway for the protagonist to reach his final destination; it's only one bit of information, albeit an important one. 2. the conduit was estabished as an important piece of the puzzle that we started to assemble since the first minutes of ME1 - beacons, Saren, Protheans, Reapers, Mu relay, Conduit, Ilos. And finally, on Ilos, Vigil explains what the Conduit really is. It all flows logically one from the other, and the Conduit caomes as a reward for a long, hard search, unlike the Crucible, that pretty much drops onto our lap.

The Crucible 'drops onto our lap' in the same way the Crucible is a 'long, hard search': a few largely linear story missions with combat and context. The Crucible is a product of monthes of construction starting at the beginning of the game, during which Shepard spends most of the plotline securing allies who bring in necessary resources and technology. It is not a sudden occurance.


In ME1, while you are correct that the Conduit isn't a DEM, Vigil and its Data File are.

[Reorte]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

In ME1, while you are correct that the Conduit isn't a DEM, Vigil and its Data File are.

Not really because they don't hand victory to you out of nowhere. They could be dropped and Shepard able to get control of the Citadel without leaving a big plot hole. They don't directly kill Saren or Sovereign. Vigil is a big exposition dump but not a DEM.

If the Crucible isn't then what do you call something that magically completely defeats your enemy with a single step?

[Dean_the_Young]

AlanC9 wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

No, not unless Mass Effect 2 was a very different game. In order for the civilizations of the galaxy to have defeated the Reapers conventionally without destroying suspension of belief, those civilizations would have had to narrow the technological gap between themselves and the Reapers. That could have only happened in Mass Effect 2. By the time the Reapers invade it is far too late.

I think ME2 could have been mostly the same, actually. The Collector Base could have provided the information necessary to narrow the technological gap. if only Shepard had been prevented from being an idiot and destroying it.

What the galaxy really would have needed to justify anything was intent and time.

Intent could have come in many forms. Recognizing the Reapers would have been the obvious one following ME1, but even if the whole 'Sovereign was a Geth dreadnaught' still applied you could easily have had a galaxy focused upon the 'Geth'... who, if you remember, they happen to be at war with. A galactic militarization, such as a mobilization of the Council against the Geth and the Terminus in fear of the Council, would have translated into already being on a war footing against the Reapers.

It would just need time to be enough. Time is always a hand-wave: you don't need to be literal with it, as the galaxy isn't that well defined, but a good amount of plot-deserving 'flex time' would have allowed the opportunity for transition. Whereas ME3 is... what, six monthes after ME2? ME2 was two years after ME1. While six months isn't enough to credibly mobilize and up-arm the galaxy, two years is much more reasonable, and five (if you pushed more time after ME2) is even better. 'Time', even flex-time, allows big shifts in the status quo: the Alliance went from pre-Mass Effect to galactic superpower in less than thirty years, which is unreasonable, but having the galaxy mobilize and build fleets in five makes a bit more sense by comparison.


There certainly were a number of technologies introduced by ME2 (and Cerberus Daily News) that, if applied properly, could have justified stiff resistance to the Reapers with marginal tweaking. Thanix could have been a bigger deal, new fabricators make a manufacturing boom that can translate to weapons and infrastructure, city-scale kinetic barriers that could resist orbital bombardment, ground-based planetary defense canons (like the one referrenced in the Rannoch arc) which could make even Reapers leery of approaching. Plus fleets. Lots and lots of fleets.

But these would have needed to be an emphasis of ME2's depiction of the galaxy, which they weren't. ME2 didn't give us a galaxy gearing up for a conventional war: it gave us one which wasn't even preparing, even as it jacked up the number of Reapers by giving the one race ~ one reaper potential. Even that could have been reduced had the Reapers been given some significant disadvantage from flying over from Dark Space (whether heavy systems damage making them weaker, or having to leave the greater number of their host in the dark), but ME2 didn't set that up and ME3 was never required to.

After that, an Artifact victory was about the only internally consistent victory route. It could have been handled better, but that's a different issue.

[Dean_the_Young]

Reorte wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

In ME1, while you are correct that the Conduit isn't a DEM, Vigil and its Data File are.

Not really because they don't hand victory to you out of nowhere. They could be dropped and Shepard able to get control of the Citadel without leaving a big plot hole.

If you changed any plot, you could do so without creating a plot hole. And if your Aunt had testicles, she'd be your Uncle.

They don't directly kill Saren or Sovereign. Vigil is a big exposition dump but not a DEM.

Vigil's data file doesn't kill Sovereign, but it does block Sovereign from opening the Relay and unleashing the Reaper hoarde. There is an impassible problem (Saren's control of the Citadel), and Vigil and his Data File come out of nowhere to resolve it.

As far as DEM go its not horrible because it doesn't resolve all the problems, but DEM don't have to be complete.

If the Crucible isn't then what do you call something that magically completely defeats your enemy with a single step?

A super weapon.

A super weapon can be a DEM, but that's if the super weapon comes out of nowhere to fire and defeat the enemy upon its appearance.

[Candidate 88766]

The only way for ME3 to have avoided a deus ex machina would've been to foreshadow the Crucible in the previous games.

"A deus ex machina is an unexpected power or event saving a seemingly hopeless situation, especially as a contrived plot device in a play or novel."

As it is, ME3 begins with the Reapers arriving and taking control of Earth - the homeworld of one of the strongest military powers in the galaxy - in a matter of hours. At this point, you have no weapon that can beat the Reapers. you've been told time and again that humanity, and the galaxy at large, isn't ready to face them. This is about as hopeless a situation as you can possibly imagine.

And then, mere minutes after Shepard leaves Earth, Hackett contacts him to let him know that they've found a weapon that can beat the Reapers and its off to Mars to find the plans. The fact that it takes the entire game to build the device is irrelevant; the device is entirely unexpected and is only introduced after the impossible situation has arisen. Regardless of whether you feel the Crucible is a good plot point or a bad one, it is pretty much the definition of a deus ex machina: a Reaper killing device is found minutes after a truly impossible situation arises.

Had the device been foreshadowed and built-up throughout the trilogy, it would not have been a deus ex machina. All the story needed was a brief mention by Vigil that the Protheans tried to create a weapon but failed, and then a stronger reference in ME2. In fact, if the Crucible had already been established by ME3, then the fact that it is missing a piece - the Catalyst - would've made for a more interesting story imo. You knew about this weapon, and you had hope, but then you find out why the Protheans never finished it - they were missing something. The race to find out what the Catalyst is whilst trying to hold the galaxy together could've made for a great plot.

[Dean_the_Young]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Regardless of whether you feel the Crucible is a good plot point or a bad one, it is pretty much the definition of a deus ex machina: a Reaper killing device is found minutes after a truly impossible situation arises.

That's not the definition of a DEM at all. A DEM appears and resolves the situation with its appearance: the introduction of the Crucible doesn't coincide with the defeat of the Reapers.

While DEM do solve problems after they've arisen, not all things that solve problems after they've arisen are DEM. That's a four legs and dog relationship.

Had the device been foreshadowed and built-up throughout the trilogy, it would not have been a deus ex machina. All the story needed was a brief mention by Vigil that the Protheans tried to create a weapon but failed, and then a stronger reference in ME2. In fact, if the Crucible had already been established by ME3, then the fact that it is missing a piece - the Catalyst - would've made for a more interesting story imo. You knew about this weapon, and you had hope, but then you find out why the Protheans never finished it - they were missing something. The race to find out what the Catalyst is whilst trying to hold the galaxy together could've made for a great plot.

A DEM isn't a DEM by virtue of showing up in the third work of a trilogy. A DEM is determined by its timing within the work it is in. You can have a DEM in the first or second part of a trilogy, or introduce a new solution in the third without it being a DEM.

[Dark_Caduceus]

We already had a Dues Ex Machina at the beginning of ME2 anyways, so why does it matter in any case?

[JBPBRC]

Having ME2 actually contribute to the overall plot would've helped ME3, but may not have fixed all the problems.

[Joccaren]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The Crucible 'drops onto our lap' in the same way the Crucible is a 'long, hard search': a few largely linear story missions with combat and context. The Crucible is a product of monthes of construction starting at the beginning of the game, during which Shepard spends most of the plotline securing allies who bring in necessary resources and technology.

You can arrive at Earth with basically no help from the Galaxy at all, and the Crucible is still built and functions. The missions had nothing to do with the Crucible, and more to do with tying up loose ends for Shepard - ending the story arcs s/he had become involved in.
The Crucible's announcement, however, is completely sudden with nothing at all pointing towards it. It comes out of nowhere, with no forshadowing.
Even Tali having the data file linking Saren to Eden Prime has more forshadowing than the Crucible. Its appearance in the story is sudden and inexplicable. I believe I posted an analogy involving two men and a gun earlier in this thread, though I struggle to find it now.
Basically, there are two men fighting in the street. They take a break and split from the battle, each walking to opposite ends of the street for a breif rest. The weaker man knows there is no way he can defeat the stronger man. A gun falls from the sky and lands next to the weaker man. It is unloaded, and with its safety on. He must load it, unlock it and aim it before he can fire. Does this make it expected? Does this disqualify it from being a DEM because he had to take time to load it?
No. It resolved his situation the second it came down. "How am I going to defeat this man?". "Shoot him with the gun".
Likewise, the Crucible resolves the situation the second it appears. "How do we defeat the Reapers?". "Build the Crucible".

In ME1, while you are correct that the Conduit isn't a DEM, Vigil and its Data File are.

Vigil and his Data File have one aspect that saves them from being a DEM: They're not that contrived.
The data file fits in perfectly fine with what we know about the Protheans - they managed to get a Data file onto the Citadel before that stopped it from sending the signal to the Keepers to activate the Relay - and Mass Effect Lore - it is a virus of some sort that gives its user control of the Citadel.
The Crucible, however, is a DEM thanks to its contrived nature. There is no history of anything like it in the ME universe, there is nothing in the lore that supports it being able to work. It comes up unaturally and doesn't fit in with the lore - making it seem obvious that its only purpose was to resolve the Reaper conflict.

[Joccaren]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
A DEM isn't a DEM by virtue of showing up in the third work of a trilogy. A DEM is determined by its timing within the work it is in. You can have a DEM in the first or second part of a trilogy, or introduce a new solution in the third without it being a DEM.

A DEM's timing is irrelevant. It is a sudden, contrived plot device that resolves a conflict within the story, not a sudden, contrived plot device that arrives in the last couple of seconds to resolve the final conflict in that episode of the story. Whilst a DEM may [And usually does] occur at the climax of the final confrontation, it is not necessary for it to do so.

In addition, assuming that DEMs did have to occur at the end, you are still not entirely correct. In the case of the Crucible it is the resolution to a situation presented in ME1 - the Reapers are coming to wipe us out, what do we do?
ME3 starts them actually wiping us out, but the Galaxy vs Reaper conflict has been around since ME1. The Crucible appears at the climax and end point of this conflict. Simply because ME3 is its own individual game does not make it its own individual conflict that it is resolving. It was made to resolve the other conflicts brought up in its prequels, not to present a new conflict to be solved - and it does just that. Hence, the Crucible should be taken in context of the entire ME series, not just ME3.

[IntoTheDarkness]

Every time this kind of thread is posted ME3 supporters gather to cloud the issue by insisting that the catalyst&crucible are not DEX, in addition to saying that people overuse a term plot hole despite the countless number of threads logically pointing out hundreds of plot holes and how catalyst&crucible are DEX. This was what I expected to see as I clicked this thread, and bingo from the very first reply.

In order to prevent them from clouding the topic, OP should avoid using terms like DEM and just call catalyst&crucible bull**** plot devices. That would suffice.

[Dean_the_Young]

Joccaren wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
A DEM isn't a DEM by virtue of showing up in the third work of a trilogy. A DEM is determined by its timing within the work it is in. You can have a DEM in the first or second part of a trilogy, or introduce a new solution in the third without it being a DEM.

A DEM's timing is irrelevant. It is a sudden, contrived plot device that resolves a conflict within the story, not a sudden, contrived plot device that arrives in the last couple of seconds to resolve the final conflict in that episode of the story. Whilst a DEM may [And usually does] occur at the climax of the final confrontation, it is not necessary for it to do so.

You contradict yourself. 'Sudden' is a matter of timing: if a device is introduced early but used later, it does not suddenly resolve the conflict with its introduction. As all devices have to be initially introduced in order to create a context, simply being introduced is not enough to qualify as a DEM or else all solutions are DEM.

In addition, assuming that DEMs did have to occur at the end,

That's not quite accurate: a DEM is introduced at the end of problem it solves, because the problem is resolved by shortly ended by the DEM. That problem doesn't need to be at the end of the narrative. 

ME3 starts them actually wiping us out, but the Galaxy vs Reaper conflict has been around since ME1. The Crucible appears at the climax and end point of this conflict. Simply because ME3 is its own individual game does not make it its own individual conflict that it is resolving. It was made to resolve the other conflicts brought up in its prequels, not to present a new conflict to be solved - and it does just that. Hence, the Crucible should be taken in context of the entire ME series, not just ME3.

Which makes it even less of a DEM because the Crucible is introduced at the begging of the third game, while the Reapers are resolved at the end of the third. Even if you try to critique it on the lines of the trilogy as a whole, a good third of that story passed between the introduction of the device and the resolution.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 28 juillet 2012 - 01:40 .

[The Twilight God]

sporeian wrote...

As we all know, The Crucible and The Catalyst tend to be the very incarnation of DEM. However, it was kind of inevitable considering the unconventional means needed to defeat the reapers. 

No. The Citadel Relay went to some other relay station out on dark space, Why did nobody make any attempts to see where ti went. The reapers are here so it's abandonned and just waiting for someone to go there. If the means to beat them were discovered there verses the mars archive it would play out more naturally. There would be no crucible, but instead access to something (reaper protocols to hack them and get their shiels to drop, some weakness in their design, something)  that could stop them.

Given Now using the Citadel to distribute this shields-off command would still work and make sense, but then the war would continue on afterwards. The reapers numerical adavantage and superior firepower would still make them a threat. In this scenario a semi-conventional campaign can be waged.

Or the dark energy plot could be explanded upon. Say, we used what we found at reaper command to make a a dark energy weapon that nullified their mass effect cores (or weakened the effectiveness of their eezo) making their shields and weapons less powerful and grounding any reapers planetside (they'd be come so heavy that they'd all fall over and be helples is in atmosphere). Since they seem to use a tantulus tech to move it would also interfer with their propulsion systems.

In either of these scenarios we could get the satisfaction of actually blasting them to hell. We could even have all 3 options present throughout the game, thus expanding the possible outcomes and llaowing choices to further affect what endings you could get.  

[Dean_the_Young]

Joccaren wrote...

You can arrive at Earth with basically no help from the Galaxy at all,

This is patently not true: you arrive at Earth with no less than two of the three Council races, either the Krogan or Salarians, either the Salarians or the Krogan or both, and either the Quarians or the Geth are both, as well as the political, economic, and scientific support your actions bring to the creation of the Crucible.

Your War Assets are not the same as the entire force Shepard brings. They are the accessory to the bottom line, not the entirety.

The missions had nothing to do with the Crucible, and more to do with tying up loose ends for Shepard - ending the story arcs s/he had become involved in.

The genophage arc revolves around meeting Turian conditions in exchange for support for the Crucible effort. The Citadel Coup marks a turnaround in which the Council starts supporting the effort. Rannoch is getting fleets and scientists for the Effort. Thessia is for the sole purpose of getting the final component of the Crucible, as is the Cerberus finale on Sanctuary and Chronos. Even the final mission to Earth rests on the fact that that's where the Catalyst is.

The Crucible's announcement, however, is completely sudden with nothing at all pointing towards it. It comes out of nowhere, with no forshadowing.

Besides that Liara in LotSB does foreshadow other Prothean attempts to beat the Reapers, the Crucible's announcement doesn't resolve the issue of the Reapers.

Even Tali having the data file linking Saren to Eden Prime has more forshadowing than the Crucible. Its appearance in the story is sudden and inexplicable. I believe I posted an analogy involving two men and a gun earlier in this thread, though I struggle to find it now.
Basically, there are two men fighting in the street. They take a break and split from the battle, each walking to opposite ends of the street for a breif rest. The weaker man knows there is no way he can defeat the stronger man. A gun falls from the sky and lands next to the weaker man. It is unloaded, and with its safety on. He must load it, unlock it and aim it before he can fire. Does this make it expected? Does this disqualify it from being a DEM because he had to take time to load it?
No. It resolved his situation the second it came down. "How am I going to defeat this man?". "Shoot him with the gun".
Likewise, the Crucible resolves the situation the second it appears. "How do we defeat the Reapers?". "Build the Crucible".

A weapon falling from the sky at the climax, providing the means of resolving the threat would be a DEM.

Vigil and his Data File have one aspect that saves them from being a DEM: They're not that contrived.

That's like saying a woman is only a little pregnant.

The data file fits in perfectly fine with what we know about the Protheans - they managed to get a Data file onto the Citadel before that stopped it from sending the signal to the Keepers to activate the Relay - and Mass Effect Lore - it is a virus of some sort that gives its user control of the Citadel.

And that information comes from... Vigil.

The Crucible, however, is a DEM thanks to its contrived nature. There is no history of anything like it in the ME universe

Bombs and control devices are aplenty.

, there is nothing in the lore that supports it being able to work.

Dark energy manipulation. You can read about it in the War Asset entries.

It comes up unaturally and doesn't fit in with the lore - making it seem obvious that its only purpose was to resolve the Reaper conflict.

It fits with the lore on a number of levels: cross-cycle efforts to warn and ward against the Reapers (clues we can derive from planet scans, Ilos, the Protheans). Yes the Crucible exists to resolve the Reaper conflict because the Crucible is built in reaction to the Reapers.

It's a weapon made by people who are facing the Reapers, to face the Reapers. That doesn't make it a DEM: that just makes it a tool for a specific problem.

[Ranger Jack Walker]

What ever you think of the Crucible, know that it is NOT a Deus Ex Machina. No even close.

[Kel212]

Joccaren wrote...

Vigil and his Data File have one aspect that saves them from being a DEM: They're not that contrived.
The data file fits in perfectly fine with what we know about the Protheans - they managed to get a Data file onto the Citadel before that stopped it from sending the signal to the Keepers to activate the Relay - and Mass Effect Lore - it is a virus of some sort that gives its user control of the Citadel.
The Crucible, however, is a DEM thanks to its contrived nature. There is no history of anything like it in the ME universe, there is nothing in the lore that supports it being able to work. It comes up unaturally and doesn't fit in with the lore - making it seem obvious that its only purpose was to resolve the Reaper conflict.

'Contrived' is up to each person's opinion; I find Vigil to be a DEM because Vigil has no foreshadowing and suddenly jumps in to explain an important part of the storyline, in order for everything to make sense and the heroes to progress. The difference is that I'm pretty forgiving of it, because it was still satisfying. 

A DEM must suddenly resolve a problem. It isn't about when in the story it happens, but how quickly it happens. Because the Crucible takes a long time to build, it isn't a DEM. 

It IS dodgy writing because its mystery is clearly an excuse to heighten narrative tension and pull off a plot-twist. 
The Catalyst itself is a DEM; the Crucible is a Macguffin. 

[Klijpope]

Kel212 wrote...
'Contrived' is up to each person's opinion; I find Vigil to be a DEM because Vigil has no foreshadowing and suddenly jumps in to explain an important part of the storyline, in order for everything to make sense and the heroes to progress. The difference is that I'm pretty forgiving of it, because it was still satisfying. 

A DEM must suddenly resolve a problem. It isn't about when in the story it happens, but how quickly it happens. Because the Crucible takes a long time to build, it isn't a DEM. 

It IS dodgy writing because its mystery is clearly an excuse to heighten narrative tension and pull off a plot-twist. 
The Catalyst itself is a DEM; the Crucible is a Macguffin. 

The point about Vigil proves that a DEM is not always 'bad writing'. Writing guides advise on avoiding DEM's because they tend toward bad writing, but there's plenty of situations where a DEM is a satisfying conclusion (ship rescues kids at end of Lord of the Flies, eagles rescue Frodo at end of Lord of the Rings).

The Crucible isn't a MacGuffin because we know what it is; a MacGuffin is just something that drives the plot without having to have any context, ie: the briefcase in Pulp Fiction. The Crucible is a plot device. It is a superweapon that is directly compared to the Manhattan Project. Was that a DEM? Probably was to the Japanese...

SF has always had more room for DEM than other genres. Star Trek was full of DEM, often done rather well. However, the Catalyst is not a DEM, as it is both foreshadowed by Vendetta and it does not solve the problem. Like Vigil it supplies exposition and context - unlike Vigil, it dos not give you the codes to defeat the Reapers. The Crucible does this.

Ergo, neither are DEM, and this is a pointless tangent to the argument. The Crucible is introduced abruptly, but that does not make it a DEM. It's far less abrupt and convenient than Tali dropping the most perfect evidence into your lap in ME1.

The truth is both the introduction of the Crucible and the Catalyst are clunky. ME1 had these clunky moments too; ME2 less so. This happens because ME is a game and the narrative is interactive, and this is a field still being developed. All other similar games have the same problems, and yes, that includes the Witcher 2.

[Kel212]

Klijpope wrote...

The point about Vigil proves that a DEM is not always 'bad writing'. Writing guides advise on avoiding DEM's because they tend toward bad writing, but there's plenty of situations where a DEM is a satisfying conclusion (ship rescues kids at end of Lord of the Flies, eagles rescue Frodo at end of Lord of the Rings).

The Crucible isn't a MacGuffin because we know what it is; a MacGuffin is just something that drives the plot without having to have any context, ie: the briefcase in Pulp Fiction. The Crucible is a plot device. It is a superweapon that is directly compared to the Manhattan Project. Was that a DEM? Probably was to the Japanese...

SF has always had more room for DEM than other genres. Star Trek was full of DEM, often done rather well. However, the Catalyst is not a DEM, as it is both foreshadowed by Vendetta and it does not solve the problem. Like Vigil it supplies exposition and context - unlike Vigil, it dos not give you the codes to defeat the Reapers. The Crucible does this.

Ergo, neither are DEM, and this is a pointless tangent to the argument. The Crucible is introduced abruptly, but that does not make it a DEM. It's far less abrupt and convenient than Tali dropping the most perfect evidence into your lap in ME1.

The truth is both the introduction of the Crucible and the Catalyst are clunky. ME1 had these clunky moments too; ME2 less so. This happens because ME is a game and the narrative is interactive, and this is a field still being developed. All other similar games have the same problems, and yes, that includes the Witcher 2.

I totally agree on the point of Vigil. A DEM can at times be a very satisfactory plot device when employed well. However, it is mostly used as a way out when the writer has written themselves into the corner.

While I still think you can make a case for thing x being plot device y, you're right; it is irrelevant. It isn't about what plot device Bioware used, but how they used or integrated it. Regardless of what it is, the Crucible and Catalyst could have been executed better. 

Thankfully, I feel ME1s clunkiness gave it some of its charm; ME3s...well, it doesn't overly bother me tbh. 

[Han Shot First]

AlanC9 wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

No, not unless Mass Effect 2 was a very different game. In order for the civilizations of the galaxy to have defeated the Reapers conventionally without destroying suspension of belief, those civilizations would have had to narrow the technological gap between themselves and the Reapers. That could have only happened in Mass Effect 2. By the time the Reapers invade it is far too late.

I think ME2 could have been mostly the same, actually. The Collector Base could have provided the information necessary to narrow the technological gap. if only Shepard had been prevented from being an idiot and destroying it.

Only if more time passed between the end of Mass Effect 2 and Mass Effect 3. 6 months wouldn't be enough time to retrofit entire fleets. Once the Reapers invade the civilizations of the galaxy have to fight with the fleets they have rather than the fleets they want.