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[dreman9999]

Grimwick wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

Look up the definition of a DEM - the Catalyst is the very embodiement (although could be a diabolus ex machina but that is simply semantics).

The two are significantly different.  Deus ex machina arrives without warning to solve the hero's problem.  Diabolus ex machina is a last minute complication to the hero's solution.

Yes, I understand that - but a diabolus ex machina is still a poor writing tool and it is still an asspull in ME3.

Although, one could argue that the Catalyst 'helps' Shepard and is a DEM - it doesn't necessarily complicate things itself.

But the catalyst is not a diabolus ex ether.
And no the catalyst does solve anything at all.

[Grimwick]

dreman9999 wrote...

avenging_teabag wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

avenging_teabag wrote...

zambot wrote...

Been said, but worth mentioning again. The Crucible is not a DEM. It was introduced at the beginning of the plot, and the entire game was about uniting the galaxy in order to build and protect it. The Catalyst is the DEM since he magically shows up in Shepard's time of need to tell him/her how to use the crucible to stop the reapers.

There are several ways to remove the Catalyst from the story and thus eliminate the DEM. The simplest way would be to just cut the whole ascension thing from the story and just have Shep activate the crucible from the control panel.

This was already discussed to death in umpteen other threads, but the Crucible IS A DEM. The key feature of a DEM is that it solves an unsolvable plot problem in a sudden and/or contrived manner, usually by introducing a new character, object, circumstance or power. The Crucible does exactly that, at what point of the story it appears is pretty much irrelevant.

The Catalyst, otoh, is just a badly done exposition fairy.

That's reversed. The key aspect of the DEM is timing, not that it solves an issue, being at the climax without forewarning: the Crucible is introduced at the beginning of the game and developed throughout it. A DEM introduced before before the climax it resolves is not a DEM.

Even the Catalyst isn't a DEM because it's introduced in the mid-game, the search of it taking the last arc before Earth.

The Star Child has the timing to be a DEM, but he's an exposition device on something already introduced.

No. And NO again.

This has been discussed in exhaustive detail already, so i'll just give you 5 first results for a google search for "deus ex machina literary definition"

http://contemporarylit.about.com/od/literaryterms/g/deusexmachina.htm
Deus Ex Machina

Definition: Literally "god in the machine", deus ex machina is a literary device dating back to ancient Greek theater in which divine intervention is employed to get the protagonist out of a sticky situation or untangle an ugly plotline.

http://web.cn.edu/kw...it_terms_D.html

DEUS EX MACHINA (from Greek theos apo mechanes): An unrealistic or unexpected intervention to rescue the protagonists or resolve the story's conflict. 

http://andromeda.rut...sexmachina.html


DEUS EX MACHINA
In some ancient Greek drama, an apparently insoluble crisis was solved by the intervention of a god, often brought on stage by an elaborate piece of equipment. This "god from the machine" was literally a deus ex machina.

Few modern works feature deities suspended by wires from the ceiling, but the term deus ex machina is still used for cases where an author uses some improbable (and often clumsy) plot device to work his or her way out of a difficult situation. When the cavalry comes charging over the hill or when the impoverished hero is relieved by an unexpected inheritance, it's often called a deus ex machina.

http://www.mlahanas....sExMachina.html

Deus ex machina is Latin for "god from the machine" and is a calque from the Greek "από μηχανής θεός", (pronounced "apo mekhanes theos"). It originated with Greek and Roman theater, when a mechane would lower a god or gods onstage to resolve a hopeless situation. Thus, "god comes from the machine". The phrase deus ex machina has been extended to refer to any resolution to a story which does not pay due regard to the story's internal logic and is so unlikely it challenges suspension of disbelief, and presumably allows the author to end it in the way he or she wanted. (emphasis mine)

http://www.thefreedi...deus ex machina

deus ex ma·chi·na (ks mäk-n, -nä, mk-n)
n.
1. In Greek and Roman drama, a god lowered by stage machinery to resolve a plot or extricate the protagonist from a difficult situation.
2. An unexpected, artificial, or improbable character, device, or event introduced suddenly in a work of fiction or drama to resolve a situation or untangle a plot.
3. A person or event that provides a sudden and unexpected solution to a difficulty.

You can dig up five more of your own definitions of a DEM if you wish, and you'll still find nothing in them regarding specific timing of that plot device. It can be anywhere in the story. All it has to do to qualify as a DEM is to resolve a plot problem in an unrealistic or contrived way. The Crucible qualifies.

I've seen this argument for the Crucible not being a DEM (its timing) multiple times - it has no leg to stand on.

The curcible doesn't sudden solve everything and is later explined. A dem just comes is and solve everything with no questions ask.

Wrong - a DEM can be explained, a MacGuffin can't. 

And it does solve everything...

[Grimwick]

dreman9999 wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

Look up the definition of a DEM - the Catalyst is the very embodiement (although could be a diabolus ex machina but that is simply semantics).

The two are significantly different.  Deus ex machina arrives without warning to solve the hero's problem.  Diabolus ex machina is a last minute complication to the hero's solution.

Yes, I understand that - but a diabolus ex machina is still a poor writing tool and it is still an asspull in ME3.

Although, one could argue that the Catalyst 'helps' Shepard and is a DEM - it doesn't necessarily complicate things itself.

But the catalyst is not a diabolus ex ether.
And no the catalyst does solve anything at all.

The Catalyst is the one who uses the Crucible to make solutions to the reaper threat. He ends the cycle and if you think that isn't solving anything then this argument is pointless.

[dreman9999]

Grimwick wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

avenging_teabag wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

avenging_teabag wrote...

zambot wrote...

Been said, but worth mentioning again. The Crucible is not a DEM. It was introduced at the beginning of the plot, and the entire game was about uniting the galaxy in order to build and protect it. The Catalyst is the DEM since he magically shows up in Shepard's time of need to tell him/her how to use the crucible to stop the reapers.

There are several ways to remove the Catalyst from the story and thus eliminate the DEM. The simplest way would be to just cut the whole ascension thing from the story and just have Shep activate the crucible from the control panel.

This was already discussed to death in umpteen other threads, but the Crucible IS A DEM. The key feature of a DEM is that it solves an unsolvable plot problem in a sudden and/or contrived manner, usually by introducing a new character, object, circumstance or power. The Crucible does exactly that, at what point of the story it appears is pretty much irrelevant.

The Catalyst, otoh, is just a badly done exposition fairy.

That's reversed. The key aspect of the DEM is timing, not that it solves an issue, being at the climax without forewarning: the Crucible is introduced at the beginning of the game and developed throughout it. A DEM introduced before before the climax it resolves is not a DEM.

Even the Catalyst isn't a DEM because it's introduced in the mid-game, the search of it taking the last arc before Earth.

The Star Child has the timing to be a DEM, but he's an exposition device on something already introduced.

No. And NO again.

This has been discussed in exhaustive detail already, so i'll just give you 5 first results for a google search for "deus ex machina literary definition"

http://contemporarylit.about.com/od/literaryterms/g/deusexmachina.htm
Deus Ex Machina

Definition: Literally "god in the machine", deus ex machina is a literary device dating back to ancient Greek theater in which divine intervention is employed to get the protagonist out of a sticky situation or untangle an ugly plotline.

http://web.cn.edu/kw...it_terms_D.html

DEUS EX MACHINA (from Greek theos apo mechanes): An unrealistic or unexpected intervention to rescue the protagonists or resolve the story's conflict. 

http://andromeda.rut...sexmachina.html


DEUS EX MACHINA
In some ancient Greek drama, an apparently insoluble crisis was solved by the intervention of a god, often brought on stage by an elaborate piece of equipment. This "god from the machine" was literally a deus ex machina.

Few modern works feature deities suspended by wires from the ceiling, but the term deus ex machina is still used for cases where an author uses some improbable (and often clumsy) plot device to work his or her way out of a difficult situation. When the cavalry comes charging over the hill or when the impoverished hero is relieved by an unexpected inheritance, it's often called a deus ex machina.

http://www.mlahanas....sExMachina.html

Deus ex machina is Latin for "god from the machine" and is a calque from the Greek "από μηχανής θεός", (pronounced "apo mekhanes theos"). It originated with Greek and Roman theater, when a mechane would lower a god or gods onstage to resolve a hopeless situation. Thus, "god comes from the machine". The phrase deus ex machina has been extended to refer to any resolution to a story which does not pay due regard to the story's internal logic and is so unlikely it challenges suspension of disbelief, and presumably allows the author to end it in the way he or she wanted. (emphasis mine)

http://www.thefreedi...deus ex machina

deus ex ma·chi·na (ks mäk-n, -nä, mk-n)
n.
1. In Greek and Roman drama, a god lowered by stage machinery to resolve a plot or extricate the protagonist from a difficult situation.
2. An unexpected, artificial, or improbable character, device, or event introduced suddenly in a work of fiction or drama to resolve a situation or untangle a plot.
3. A person or event that provides a sudden and unexpected solution to a difficulty.

You can dig up five more of your own definitions of a DEM if you wish, and you'll still find nothing in them regarding specific timing of that plot device. It can be anywhere in the story. All it has to do to qualify as a DEM is to resolve a plot problem in an unrealistic or contrived way. The Crucible qualifies.

I've seen this argument for the Crucible not being a DEM (its timing) multiple times - it has no leg to stand on.

The curcible doesn't sudden solve everything and is later explined. A dem just comes is and solve everything with no questions ask.

Wrong - a DEM can be explained, a MacGuffin can't. 

And it does solve everything...

Read it's definition...
http://www.thefreedi...deus ex machina 
1. [/b]In Greek and Roman drama, a god lowered by stage machinery to resolve a plot or extricate the protagonist from a difficult situation.2. An unexpected, artificial, or improbable character, device, or event introduced suddenly in a work of fiction or drama to resolve a situation or untangle a plot.3. A person or event that provides a sudden and unexpected solution to a difficulty.A dem is not explined at all. Both a macguffin and a DEM are not explined.

[dreman9999]

Grimwick wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

Look up the definition of a DEM - the Catalyst is the very embodiement (although could be a diabolus ex machina but that is simply semantics).

The two are significantly different.  Deus ex machina arrives without warning to solve the hero's problem.  Diabolus ex machina is a last minute complication to the hero's solution.

Yes, I understand that - but a diabolus ex machina is still a poor writing tool and it is still an asspull in ME3.

Although, one could argue that the Catalyst 'helps' Shepard and is a DEM - it doesn't necessarily complicate things itself.

But the catalyst is not a diabolus ex ether.
And no the catalyst does solve anything at all.

The Catalyst is the one who uses the Crucible to make solutions to the reaper threat. He ends the cycle and if you think that isn't solving anything then this argument is pointless.

No. The catalyst is a part of the crucible. It ask you to pick a choice meaning the AI has no control over the actions of the crucible. He solves nothing.

[Grimwick]

dreman9999 wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

avenging_teabag wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

avenging_teabag wrote...

zambot wrote...

Been said, but worth mentioning again. The Crucible is not a DEM. It was introduced at the beginning of the plot, and the entire game was about uniting the galaxy in order to build and protect it. The Catalyst is the DEM since he magically shows up in Shepard's time of need to tell him/her how to use the crucible to stop the reapers.

There are several ways to remove the Catalyst from the story and thus eliminate the DEM. The simplest way would be to just cut the whole ascension thing from the story and just have Shep activate the crucible from the control panel.

This was already discussed to death in umpteen other threads, but the Crucible IS A DEM. The key feature of a DEM is that it solves an unsolvable plot problem in a sudden and/or contrived manner, usually by introducing a new character, object, circumstance or power. The Crucible does exactly that, at what point of the story it appears is pretty much irrelevant.

The Catalyst, otoh, is just a badly done exposition fairy.

That's reversed. The key aspect of the DEM is timing, not that it solves an issue, being at the climax without forewarning: the Crucible is introduced at the beginning of the game and developed throughout it. A DEM introduced before before the climax it resolves is not a DEM.

Even the Catalyst isn't a DEM because it's introduced in the mid-game, the search of it taking the last arc before Earth.

The Star Child has the timing to be a DEM, but he's an exposition device on something already introduced.

No. And NO again.

This has been discussed in exhaustive detail already, so i'll just give you 5 first results for a google search for "deus ex machina literary definition"

http://contemporarylit.about.com/od/literaryterms/g/deusexmachina.htm
Deus Ex Machina

Definition: Literally "god in the machine", deus ex machina is a literary device dating back to ancient Greek theater in which divine intervention is employed to get the protagonist out of a sticky situation or untangle an ugly plotline.

http://web.cn.edu/kw...it_terms_D.html

DEUS EX MACHINA (from Greek theos apo mechanes): An unrealistic or unexpected intervention to rescue the protagonists or resolve the story's conflict. 

http://andromeda.rut...sexmachina.html


DEUS EX MACHINA
In some ancient Greek drama, an apparently insoluble crisis was solved by the intervention of a god, often brought on stage by an elaborate piece of equipment. This "god from the machine" was literally a deus ex machina.

Few modern works feature deities suspended by wires from the ceiling, but the term deus ex machina is still used for cases where an author uses some improbable (and often clumsy) plot device to work his or her way out of a difficult situation. When the cavalry comes charging over the hill or when the impoverished hero is relieved by an unexpected inheritance, it's often called a deus ex machina.

http://www.mlahanas....sExMachina.html

Deus ex machina is Latin for "god from the machine" and is a calque from the Greek "από μηχανής θεός", (pronounced "apo mekhanes theos"). It originated with Greek and Roman theater, when a mechane would lower a god or gods onstage to resolve a hopeless situation. Thus, "god comes from the machine". The phrase deus ex machina has been extended to refer to any resolution to a story which does not pay due regard to the story's internal logic and is so unlikely it challenges suspension of disbelief, and presumably allows the author to end it in the way he or she wanted. (emphasis mine)

http://www.thefreedi...deus ex machina

deus ex ma·chi·na (ks mäk-n, -nä, mk-n)
n.
1. In Greek and Roman drama, a god lowered by stage machinery to resolve a plot or extricate the protagonist from a difficult situation.
2. An unexpected, artificial, or improbable character, device, or event introduced suddenly in a work of fiction or drama to resolve a situation or untangle a plot.
3. A person or event that provides a sudden and unexpected solution to a difficulty.

You can dig up five more of your own definitions of a DEM if you wish, and you'll still find nothing in them regarding specific timing of that plot device. It can be anywhere in the story. All it has to do to qualify as a DEM is to resolve a plot problem in an unrealistic or contrived way. The Crucible qualifies.

I've seen this argument for the Crucible not being a DEM (its timing) multiple times - it has no leg to stand on.

The curcible doesn't sudden solve everything and is later explined. A dem just comes is and solve everything with no questions ask.

Wrong - a DEM can be explained, a MacGuffin can't. 

And it does solve everything...

Read it's definition...
http://www.thefreedi...deus ex machina 
1. [/b]In Greek and Roman drama, a god lowered by stage machinery to resolve a plot or extricate the protagonist from a difficult situation.2. An unexpected, artificial, or improbable character, device, or event introduced suddenly in a work of fiction or drama to resolve a situation or untangle a plot.3. A person or event that provides a sudden and unexpected solution to a difficulty.A dem is not explined at all. Both a macguffin and a DEM are not explined.

It doesn't say 'unexplained' at all in any of the definitions. It doesn't even say it in yours... unless you are reading 'unexpected' and 'unexplained'....

This is not helping your case.

[CaptainZaysh]

Grimwick wrote...

This last minute 'complication' is him presenting the solutions - you seem to assume Shepard knows how the Crucible would work before the ending, when he doesn't.

No no, I'm aware that Shepard doesn't know because it's explicitly discussed several times by several characters that they don't really know what's going to happen when they pull the trigger.  Everyone is hoping it will Destroy the enemy and that collateral damage will be acceptable.

The Catalyst isn't presenting the solution.  The solution was, "build the Crucible, hook it up to the Catalyst, and pull the trigger".  It makes the solution more complicated just before the firework display Shepard was expecting and therefore qualifies as diabolus ex machina.

And say what you like about it being an ass-pull, but I think it added an unexpected layer of complexity (and exposition, for those of us smart enough to figure out its motivations before the EC) right when I was expecting a CGI firework display.

Modifié par CaptainZaysh, 27 juillet 2012 - 11:24 .

[Oransel]

Here is the way to write the ME3 plot and beat Reapers without Crucible or conventional victory (under opportunity #1) social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/12920208

Modifié par Oransel, 27 juillet 2012 - 11:22 .

[Grimwick]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

This last minute 'complication' is him presenting the solutions - you seem to assume Shepard knows how the Crucible would work before the ending, when he doesn't.

No no, I'm aware that Shepard doesn't know because It's explicitly discussed several times by several characters that they don't really know what's going to happen when they pull the trigger.  Everyone is hoping it will Destroy the enemy and that collateral damage will be acceptable.

The Catalyst isn't presenting the solution.  The solution was, "build the Crucible, hook it up to the Catalyst, and pull the trigger".  It makes the solution more complicated just before the firework display Shepard was expecting and therefore qualifies as diabolus ex machina.

That doesn't make the Catalyst a diabolus - just the entire fact that the crucible didn't fire when they opened the arms.

And say what you like about it being an ass-pull, but I think it added an unexpected layer of complexity (and exposition, for those of us smart enough to figure out its motivations before the EC) right when I was expecting a CGI firework display.

Your arrogance astounds me.

[dreman9999]

Grimwick wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Grimwick wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

avenging_teabag wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

avenging_teabag wrote...

zambot wrote...

Been said, but worth mentioning again. The Crucible is not a DEM. It was introduced at the beginning of the plot, and the entire game was about uniting the galaxy in order to build and protect it. The Catalyst is the DEM since he magically shows up in Shepard's time of need to tell him/her how to use the crucible to stop the reapers.

There are several ways to remove the Catalyst from the story and thus eliminate the DEM. The simplest way would be to just cut the whole ascension thing from the story and just have Shep activate the crucible from the control panel.

This was already discussed to death in umpteen other threads, but the Crucible IS A DEM. The key feature of a DEM is that it solves an unsolvable plot problem in a sudden and/or contrived manner, usually by introducing a new character, object, circumstance or power. The Crucible does exactly that, at what point of the story it appears is pretty much irrelevant.

The Catalyst, otoh, is just a badly done exposition fairy.

That's reversed. The key aspect of the DEM is timing, not that it solves an issue, being at the climax without forewarning: the Crucible is introduced at the beginning of the game and developed throughout it. A DEM introduced before before the climax it resolves is not a DEM.

Even the Catalyst isn't a DEM because it's introduced in the mid-game, the search of it taking the last arc before Earth.

The Star Child has the timing to be a DEM, but he's an exposition device on something already introduced.

No. And NO again.

This has been discussed in exhaustive detail already, so i'll just give you 5 first results for a google search for "deus ex machina literary definition"

http://contemporarylit.about.com/od/literaryterms/g/deusexmachina.htm
Deus Ex Machina

Definition: Literally "god in the machine", deus ex machina is a literary device dating back to ancient Greek theater in which divine intervention is employed to get the protagonist out of a sticky situation or untangle an ugly plotline.

http://web.cn.edu/kw...it_terms_D.html

DEUS EX MACHINA (from Greek theos apo mechanes): An unrealistic or unexpected intervention to rescue the protagonists or resolve the story's conflict. 

http://andromeda.rut...sexmachina.html


DEUS EX MACHINA
In some ancient Greek drama, an apparently insoluble crisis was solved by the intervention of a god, often brought on stage by an elaborate piece of equipment. This "god from the machine" was literally a deus ex machina.

Few modern works feature deities suspended by wires from the ceiling, but the term deus ex machina is still used for cases where an author uses some improbable (and often clumsy) plot device to work his or her way out of a difficult situation. When the cavalry comes charging over the hill or when the impoverished hero is relieved by an unexpected inheritance, it's often called a deus ex machina.

http://www.mlahanas....sExMachina.html

Deus ex machina is Latin for "god from the machine" and is a calque from the Greek "από μηχανής θεός", (pronounced "apo mekhanes theos"). It originated with Greek and Roman theater, when a mechane would lower a god or gods onstage to resolve a hopeless situation. Thus, "god comes from the machine". The phrase deus ex machina has been extended to refer to any resolution to a story which does not pay due regard to the story's internal logic and is so unlikely it challenges suspension of disbelief, and presumably allows the author to end it in the way he or she wanted. (emphasis mine)

http://www.thefreedi...deus ex machina

deus ex ma·chi·na (ks mäk-n, -nä, mk-n)
n.
1. In Greek and Roman drama, a god lowered by stage machinery to resolve a plot or extricate the protagonist from a difficult situation.
2. An unexpected, artificial, or improbable character, device, or event introduced suddenly in a work of fiction or drama to resolve a situation or untangle a plot.
3. A person or event that provides a sudden and unexpected solution to a difficulty.

You can dig up five more of your own definitions of a DEM if you wish, and you'll still find nothing in them regarding specific timing of that plot device. It can be anywhere in the story. All it has to do to qualify as a DEM is to resolve a plot problem in an unrealistic or contrived way. The Crucible qualifies.

I've seen this argument for the Crucible not being a DEM (its timing) multiple times - it has no leg to stand on.

The curcible doesn't sudden solve everything and is later explined. A dem just comes is and solve everything with no questions ask.

Wrong - a DEM can be explained, a MacGuffin can't. 

And it does solve everything...

Read it's definition...
http://www.thefreedi...deus ex machina 
1. [/b]In Greek and Roman drama, a god lowered by stage machinery to resolve a plot or extricate the protagonist from a difficult situation.2. An unexpected, artificial, or improbable character, device, or event introduced suddenly in a work of fiction or drama to resolve a situation or untangle a plot.3. A person or event that provides a sudden and unexpected solution to a difficulty.A dem is not explined at all. Both a macguffin and a DEM are not explined.

It doesn't say 'unexplained' at all in any of the definitions. It doesn't even say it in yours... unless you are reading 'unexpected' and 'unexplained'....

This is not helping your case.

unexpected, artificial, or improbable points to it being unexplined.

unexpected 
http://www.thefreedi....com/unexpected 
Coming without warning; unforeseen. 

Addeedthe definationis that it's 
sudden and unexpected .

Both the catalyst and the crucible don't do that.

And example of a DEM is the dease that killed all the aliens in War of the worlds.

[CaptainZaysh]

Grimwick wrote...

That doesn't make the Catalyst a diabolus - just the entire fact that the crucible didn't fire when they opened the arms.

Now you're arguing semantics.

Grimwick wrote...
Your arrogance astounds me.

I could have been more diplomatic but, let's face it, the EC was the ending again but delivered more slowly so even the kids at the back of the room could follow along.  Handhold the Line.

[Joccaren]

dreman9999 wrote...

unexpected, artificial, or improbable points to it being unexplined.

unexpected 
http://www.thefreedi....com/unexpected 
Coming without warning; unforeseen. 

Addeedthe definationis that it's 
sudden and unexpected .

Both the catalyst and the crucible don't do that.

And example of a DEM is the dease that killed all the aliens in War of the worlds.

You'll find the Crucible at least [I CBF talking about the Catalyst] fits all of the points you listed at the top.

It is unexpected. Playing ME1 and 2, the only reason you would have suspected something along those lines is a "They'll probably include some superweapon that whipes out the Reapers 'cause the Reapers are too strong" - not because it makes sense in the confines of the game and/or universe. It comes in out of nowhere and  is completely unexpected, especially considering the calibre of some of Bioware's previous work. Tell me you suspected that you'd find a device on Mars that would allow you to Destroy/Control/Synthesise prior to ME3. I doubt many people actually would have.

It is artificial, or more accurately contrived. It doesn't fit in with the rest of the story, and is obviously made as a solution to the Reaper problem, as opposed to rising naturally as a logical solution to the Reaper problem. It was wriitten in artificially to solve a problem, rather than arising naturally thanks to the circumstances in the story.

Improbable. This is what leads to it being unexpected. Following the lore of the Mass Effect Universe there is no reason at all to believe that there is a design for a device on Mars - an archive we've had for many decades to research - that has the power to destroy, control or synthesis and must be plugged into the Citadel. Nothing in the games gives this indication at all. The likelihood of some such device existing is extremely improbable given the confines of the ME universe.

Now, taken in context of the entire series - as it really should be - the Crucible is a DEM. It arises to solve the conflict of the Reaper war in a contrived, unexpected and illogical manner.

Taken in context of simply ME3, it could be argued that it isn't on the grounds that you wouldn't know what to expect by that point in the story, and thus it may not be unexpected. However, we do know what to expect, and a magical device that arises at our moment of need is only expected as a bad cliche, not as something that the story in any way hints towards.

[dreman9999]

Joccaren wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

unexpected, artificial, or improbable points to it being unexplined.

unexpected 
http://www.thefreedi....com/unexpected 
Coming without warning; unforeseen. 

Addeedthe definationis that it's 
sudden and unexpected .

Both the catalyst and the crucible don't do that.

And example of a DEM is the dease that killed all the aliens in War of the worlds.

You'll find the Crucible at least [I CBF talking about the Catalyst] fits all of the points you listed at the top.

It is unexpected. Playing ME1 and 2, the only reason you would have suspected something along those lines is a "They'll probably include some superweapon that whipes out the Reapers 'cause the Reapers are too strong" - not because it makes sense in the confines of the game and/or universe. It comes in out of nowhere and  is completely unexpected, especially considering the calibre of some of Bioware's previous work. Tell me you suspected that you'd find a device on Mars that would allow you to Destroy/Control/Synthesise prior to ME3. I doubt many people actually would have.

It is artificial, or more accurately contrived. It doesn't fit in with the rest of the story, and is obviously made as a solution to the Reaper problem, as opposed to rising naturally as a logical solution to the Reaper problem. It was wriitten in artificially to solve a problem, rather than arising naturally thanks to the circumstances in the story.

Improbable. This is what leads to it being unexpected. Following the lore of the Mass Effect Universe there is no reason at all to believe that there is a design for a device on Mars - an archive we've had for many decades to research - that has the power to destroy, control or synthesis and must be plugged into the Citadel. Nothing in the games gives this indication at all. The likelihood of some such device existing is extremely improbable given the confines of the ME universe.

Now, taken in context of the entire series - as it really should be - the Crucible is a DEM. It arises to solve the conflict of the Reaper war in a contrived, unexpected and illogical manner.

Taken in context of simply ME3, it could be argued that it isn't on the grounds that you wouldn't know what to expect by that point in the story, and thus it may not be unexpected. However, we do know what to expect, and a magical device that arises at our moment of need is only expected as a bad cliche, not as something that the story in any way hints towards.

The curcible was hinted at from Lofsb. Added, it doesn't solve anything suddenly, it has to be build first. So no the crucilbe is not a dem.
If fits into the story being that the story already has a history of using info from the past to stop the reapers. That's how sovergin was stopped.
It's also not improblible because the protheans have a history of leaving info behind for this cycle.
And no, it doesn't solve anything at the last moment. Last moment means lost momet of everything. That means the last second moment of the mass effect series.
The crucible is not a dem.

Modifié par dreman9999, 27 juillet 2012 - 11:50 .

[Joccaren]

dreman9999 wrote...
The curcible was hinted at from Lofsb.

"Was searching for a way to stop the Reapers" does not mean "Was looking for a magical device that he could build to press a button and end the Reaper threat".

Added, it doesn't solve anything suddenly, it has to be build first. So no the crucilbe is not a dem.

Upon its discovery it solves the problem "How are we going to defeat the Reapers" with the answer "Build the Crucible".

If fits into the story being that the story already has a history of using info from the past to stop the reapers. That's how sovergin was stopped.

Info from the past is fine. Magical devices that just so happen to be able to perform an impossible feat and destroy/control/synthesise all Reapers everywhere at once is not an expected piece of "Info from the past".
The simple fact that it is past info is not enough to make it fit into the story. I could say that there was past info the Protheans had that showed Shepard the location of a planet filled with magical unicorns that could fly into space and headbut the Reapers into Oblivion. Its info from the past, it fits into the story right?
No?
Well maybe simply "Info from the past" is too broad to actually describe what something needs to fit into the story.

It's also not improblible because the protheans have a history of leaving info behind for this cycle.

The Protheans do not, however, have a history of building gigantic superweapons capable of ending the Reaper war at the press of a button. See above for why "The Protheans leave info behind" is not sufficient justification for why it fits/is not improbable.

And no, it doesn't solve anything at the last moment. Last moment means lost momet of everything. That means the last second moment of the mass effect series.
The crucible is not a dem.

I never said anything about the last moment, and timing is irrelevant. a DEM can occur at any time during a story so long as it resolves a conflict in a contrived and unexpected way.
The Crucible is a DEM.

[avenging_teabag]

dreman9999 wrote...

Joccaren wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

unexpected, artificial, or improbable points to it being unexplined.

unexpected 
http://www.thefreedi....com/unexpected 
Coming without warning; unforeseen. 

Addeedthe definationis that it's 
sudden and unexpected .

Both the catalyst and the crucible don't do that.

And example of a DEM is the dease that killed all the aliens in War of the worlds.

You'll find the Crucible at least [I CBF talking about the Catalyst] fits all of the points you listed at the top.

It is unexpected. Playing ME1 and 2, the only reason you would have suspected something along those lines is a "They'll probably include some superweapon that whipes out the Reapers 'cause the Reapers are too strong" - not because it makes sense in the confines of the game and/or universe. It comes in out of nowhere and  is completely unexpected, especially considering the calibre of some of Bioware's previous work. Tell me you suspected that you'd find a device on Mars that would allow you to Destroy/Control/Synthesise prior to ME3. I doubt many people actually would have.

It is artificial, or more accurately contrived. It doesn't fit in with the rest of the story, and is obviously made as a solution to the Reaper problem, as opposed to rising naturally as a logical solution to the Reaper problem. It was wriitten in artificially to solve a problem, rather than arising naturally thanks to the circumstances in the story.

Improbable. This is what leads to it being unexpected. Following the lore of the Mass Effect Universe there is no reason at all to believe that there is a design for a device on Mars - an archive we've had for many decades to research - that has the power to destroy, control or synthesis and must be plugged into the Citadel. Nothing in the games gives this indication at all. The likelihood of some such device existing is extremely improbable given the confines of the ME universe.

Now, taken in context of the entire series - as it really should be - the Crucible is a DEM. It arises to solve the conflict of the Reaper war in a contrived, unexpected and illogical manner.

Taken in context of simply ME3, it could be argued that it isn't on the grounds that you wouldn't know what to expect by that point in the story, and thus it may not be unexpected. However, we do know what to expect, and a magical device that arises at our moment of need is only expected as a bad cliche, not as something that the story in any way hints towards.

The curcible was hinted at from Lofsb. Added, it doesn't solve anything suddenly, it has to be build first. So no the crucilbe is not a dem.
If fits into the story being that the story already has a history of using info from the past to stop the reapers. That's how sovergin was stopped.
It's also not improblible because the protheans have a history of leaving info behind for this cycle.
And no, it doesn't solve anything at the last moment. Last moment means lost momet of everything. That means the last second moment of the mass effect series.
The crucible is not a dem.

You're just being stubborn.

[3DandBeyond]

txgoldrush wrote...

Shepard is seen as a miracle worker and a hero, one that fixes the problems and does the impossible. Thats clear enough.

Nevermind the fact once again that Shepard and his allies sets up the Crucible.....face it, the Catalyst doesn't explain th efinal choices if Shepard doesn't set it up. Simply put, once again, Shepard basically conviced by allowing the Crucible to be docked that the villians methods do not work anymore.

You keep ignoring this fact. God boy doesn't just interevene because the hero is powerless....he intervenes because the hero intervened.

Once again, if it wasn't for Shep, the cycle continues.

You said it yourself-Shepard is seen as a miracle worker that solves problems and does the impossible.  Shepard is a known person, not a contrived thing thrown in from out of nowhere.  Shepard's the hero of the story and that's what heroes do.  That defines a protagonist and not a Deus ex Machina. 

The kid says a lot of things-all things are only what he says.  But just because Shepard uses what the kid provides does not make Shepard any kind of DeM.  Shepard did not create the crucible-Shepard didn't even find the plans.  Shepard didn't make the citadel or anything else.  The DeM could have used anyone, we have no way of knowing it needed Shepard specifically.  That may be so, but if so that's never explored or said.  And the kid says the crucible, (not Shepard) changed me.  For control, the kid needs someone to control the reapers.  For synthesis, someone's energy.  Destroy, he needs someone to shoot the tube.  He doesn't say specifically that must be Shepard.

You really have to go back to what a DeM is.  It's a god from a machine and as such quite literally drops in from nowhere to solve the problem.  The writers use the kid to do that-his tools are the crucible, the catalyst, and Shepard.  Shepard happened to be the one that got there.  Shepard used what was provided to be used.  Shepard didn't create any of it.


As for the choices.  You say with no proof that synthesis is the only choice the kid wants made.  No it isn't.  He may prefer it, but all choices fix his problem.  He was created to find a balance between synthetics and organics.  His solution was basically to never let races advance to the point where conflict can happen-don't allow synthetics to exist.  That isn't working anymore.  There's more to acutually prove that the existence of the geth are why his solution isn't working than that it's just because Shepard is on the citadel.  And again themes within ME2 that might make sense of this all in some way were abandoned and the obsession with humans is never explained or explored.  In ME2 they go after humans using the collectors and not just Shepard.

The choices all solve the kid's original problem.  His solution, the reapers, is no longer working.  He needs a new solution, but he can't make it happen.  He's still providing the solution.  I used an example.  You ignored it.  If a blind man appears suddenly and offers the protagonist of a story an magic gun that he found on the floor, so the protagonist can beat some bad guys, the blind man is acting as a DeM, even though he didn't make the gun and isn't using the gun himself.

Shepard can choose synthesis.  The kid may like this the best because it solves his problem he thinks forever as the final goal of evolution.  Never mind the problems it could create.  The reapers always advanced people along a specific path.  He wants people to fully advance along this path.  He is tech and he thinks people want perfection through tech.  So, people want to be him.  It's forced eugenics.  It stops the conflict and chaos as the kid sees it-solving his problem.

Shepard can choose synthesis.  Shepard may replace the kid, but the essence or intelligence of the kid may live on.  Who knows, but even so the kid will have at least temporarily solved his problem.  It's similar to but more nuanced than his solution of the reapers.  The reapers still exist to enforce the peace.  That stops conflict and chaos.  An emotionless intelligence (Shepard) will be controlling them and at least temporarily that intelligence isn't yet warped like the kid.  Nevermind all the people that might not like reapers with people goo inside them running around and never mind that this means the reapers will still be creating the tech and advancing organics along a certain path.

Shepard can choose destroy.  Not as permanent as even the other choices, but it does solve the current synthetic problem by destroying all of them.  Certain tech may be fixed, but synthetic life won't exist anytime soon.  It will take awhile to repair all the other things (they have to learn how to).  The conflict and chaos may (according to the kid will) return, but he has for now solved his problem.  He doesn't say that he will be destroyed.  He does say "we" when asked about the reapers, but the kid isn't just the reapers.  Before he created the first reaper, he existed and was not a reaper.  So, he might still exist and could create a new solution (even reapers).  There's no way of knowing.

Any choice is preferred by the kid over a solution that is not currently or still working for him.  In fact, he never protests that Shepard should just choose synthesis.

This is all a part of why the kid fails since he is meant by the writers to be the solution to the reaper problem.  This is evident in the refuse option and the fact the original ending basically forced you to choose one of the 3 options to successfuly finish (not win) the game.  People are even convinced that making one of these choices is a win because they stop the reapers.  Only one of the choices might do that.  But none of them are wins at all.  The writers want you to think they are.  But they are not why you played 3 games.  They don't say the galaxy is a better place.  And 2 of them allow the reapers to still exist and be right in people's faces.  They are all destructive to people and set up immoral options as paths to victory.  That is demented.

The kid needs to be excised like a wart.  It won't happen, but a lot of the ending (all of it) is so far removed from what ME was.  They are glorified versions of the original RGB endings.  The game and story needed for people to finish the reapers not for Shepard to have a conversation with the reaper god and help him choose how to carry out his directive.

[Dean_the_Young]

avenging_teabag wrote...

You can dig up five more of your own definitions of a DEM if you wish, and you'll still find nothing in them regarding specific timing of that plot device.

Except you can, and if you understand the origin of the device you will. Even your own definitions involve that implicit understanding that it is a sudden introduction to resolve the issue.

It can be anywhere in the story. All it has to do to qualify as a DEM is to resolve a plot problem in an unrealistic or contrived way. The Crucible qualifies.

All solutions qualify by that definition because all solutions to problems of plot in works of fiction are contrived. Fiction itself is contrived.

Deus ex machina are a subcategory of plot devices that solve problems. Not all plot devices that solve problems are deus ex machina.

I've seen this argument for the Crucible not being a DEM (its timing) multiple times - it has no leg to stand on.

Indeed, because it is a foundation, not a chair. It doesn't need to 'stand' on anything but itself.

[Dean_the_Young]

avenging_teabag wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Joccaren wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

unexpected, artificial, or improbable points to it being unexplined.

unexpected 
http://www.thefreedi....com/unexpected 
Coming without warning; unforeseen. 

Addeedthe definationis that it's 
sudden and unexpected .

Both the catalyst and the crucible don't do that.

And example of a DEM is the dease that killed all the aliens in War of the worlds.

You'll find the Crucible at least [I CBF talking about the Catalyst] fits all of the points you listed at the top.

It is unexpected. Playing ME1 and 2, the only reason you would have suspected something along those lines is a "They'll probably include some superweapon that whipes out the Reapers 'cause the Reapers are too strong" - not because it makes sense in the confines of the game and/or universe. It comes in out of nowhere and  is completely unexpected, especially considering the calibre of some of Bioware's previous work. Tell me you suspected that you'd find a device on Mars that would allow you to Destroy/Control/Synthesise prior to ME3. I doubt many people actually would have.

It is artificial, or more accurately contrived. It doesn't fit in with the rest of the story, and is obviously made as a solution to the Reaper problem, as opposed to rising naturally as a logical solution to the Reaper problem. It was wriitten in artificially to solve a problem, rather than arising naturally thanks to the circumstances in the story.

Improbable. This is what leads to it being unexpected. Following the lore of the Mass Effect Universe there is no reason at all to believe that there is a design for a device on Mars - an archive we've had for many decades to research - that has the power to destroy, control or synthesis and must be plugged into the Citadel. Nothing in the games gives this indication at all. The likelihood of some such device existing is extremely improbable given the confines of the ME universe.

Now, taken in context of the entire series - as it really should be - the Crucible is a DEM. It arises to solve the conflict of the Reaper war in a contrived, unexpected and illogical manner.

Taken in context of simply ME3, it could be argued that it isn't on the grounds that you wouldn't know what to expect by that point in the story, and thus it may not be unexpected. However, we do know what to expect, and a magical device that arises at our moment of need is only expected as a bad cliche, not as something that the story in any way hints towards.

The curcible was hinted at from Lofsb. Added, it doesn't solve anything suddenly, it has to be build first. So no the crucilbe is not a dem.
If fits into the story being that the story already has a history of using info from the past to stop the reapers. That's how sovergin was stopped.
It's also not improblible because the protheans have a history of leaving info behind for this cycle.
And no, it doesn't solve anything at the last moment. Last moment means lost momet of everything. That means the last second moment of the mass effect series.
The crucible is not a dem.

You're just being stubborn.

Pot, Kettle  called. Something about being black...?

[dreman9999]

Joccaren wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
The curcible was hinted at from Lofsb.

"Was searching for a way to stop the Reapers" does not mean "Was looking for a magical device that he could build to press a button and end the Reaper threat".

Added, it doesn't solve anything suddenly, it has to be build first. So no the crucilbe is not a dem.

Upon its discovery it solves the problem "How are we going to defeat the Reapers" with the answer "Build the Crucible".

If fits into the story being that the story already has a history of using info from the past to stop the reapers. That's how sovergin was stopped.

Info from the past is fine. Magical devices that just so happen to be able to perform an impossible feat and destroy/control/synthesise all Reapers everywhere at once is not an expected piece of "Info from the past".
The simple fact that it is past info is not enough to make it fit into the story. I could say that there was past info the Protheans had that showed Shepard the location of a planet filled with magical unicorns that could fly into space and headbut the Reapers into Oblivion. Its info from the past, it fits into the story right?
No?
Well maybe simply "Info from the past" is too broad to actually describe what something needs to fit into the story.

It's also not improblible because the protheans have a history of leaving info behind for this cycle.

The Protheans do not, however, have a history of building gigantic superweapons capable of ending the Reaper war at the press of a button. See above for why "The Protheans leave info behind" is not sufficient justification for why it fits/is not improbable.

And no, it doesn't solve anything at the last moment. Last moment means lost momet of everything. That means the last second moment of the mass effect series.
The crucible is not a dem.

I never said anything about the last moment, and timing is irrelevant. a DEM can occur at any time during a story so long as it resolves a conflict in a contrived and unexpected way.
The Crucible is a DEM.

1. The destroy and control options of the crucible is not magical and Liara states the sb found something left by the protheans in lotsb.
2.No. That's not a suddened solving of a solution. IT still has to be build. That how it's not sudden.
3.It's still info from the past. Still simular to wat happen before with in ME1.
4.The protheans left if for us. And Ironocly they do have a history of making super weapons...http://masseffect.wi...a'til#Zha.27til 
With no other recourse, the Protheans sent the star of the zha's home system into supernova, destroying the zha'til entirely. 

[dreman9999]

avenging_teabag wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Joccaren wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

unexpected, artificial, or improbable points to it being unexplined.

unexpected 
http://www.thefreedi....com/unexpected 
Coming without warning; unforeseen. 

Addeedthe definationis that it's 
sudden and unexpected .

Both the catalyst and the crucible don't do that.

And example of a DEM is the dease that killed all the aliens in War of the worlds.

You'll find the Crucible at least [I CBF talking about the Catalyst] fits all of the points you listed at the top.

It is unexpected. Playing ME1 and 2, the only reason you would have suspected something along those lines is a "They'll probably include some superweapon that whipes out the Reapers 'cause the Reapers are too strong" - not because it makes sense in the confines of the game and/or universe. It comes in out of nowhere and  is completely unexpected, especially considering the calibre of some of Bioware's previous work. Tell me you suspected that you'd find a device on Mars that would allow you to Destroy/Control/Synthesise prior to ME3. I doubt many people actually would have.

It is artificial, or more accurately contrived. It doesn't fit in with the rest of the story, and is obviously made as a solution to the Reaper problem, as opposed to rising naturally as a logical solution to the Reaper problem. It was wriitten in artificially to solve a problem, rather than arising naturally thanks to the circumstances in the story.

Improbable. This is what leads to it being unexpected. Following the lore of the Mass Effect Universe there is no reason at all to believe that there is a design for a device on Mars - an archive we've had for many decades to research - that has the power to destroy, control or synthesis and must be plugged into the Citadel. Nothing in the games gives this indication at all. The likelihood of some such device existing is extremely improbable given the confines of the ME universe.

Now, taken in context of the entire series - as it really should be - the Crucible is a DEM. It arises to solve the conflict of the Reaper war in a contrived, unexpected and illogical manner.

Taken in context of simply ME3, it could be argued that it isn't on the grounds that you wouldn't know what to expect by that point in the story, and thus it may not be unexpected. However, we do know what to expect, and a magical device that arises at our moment of need is only expected as a bad cliche, not as something that the story in any way hints towards.

The curcible was hinted at from Lofsb. Added, it doesn't solve anything suddenly, it has to be build first. So no the crucilbe is not a dem.
If fits into the story being that the story already has a history of using info from the past to stop the reapers. That's how sovergin was stopped.
It's also not improblible because the protheans have a history of leaving info behind for this cycle.
And no, it doesn't solve anything at the last moment. Last moment means lost momet of everything. That means the last second moment of the mass effect series.
The crucible is not a dem.

You're just being stubborn.

No. I understand that suddenly and unexpected added to the last moments of the plot means at the last moments , suddenly, and unexpectedly. That not something that happens at the start of a 3rd act. It's also, not something hinted in the second act.

[3DandBeyond]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

I could have been more diplomatic but, let's face it, the EC was the ending again but delivered more slowly so even the kids at the back of the room could follow along.  Handhold the Line.

Oh yes, exactly. <_<

It's for people that actually thought it made sense and just wuved it.  In fact, much of the EC incorporates ideas fans on this site for what they feared the endings meant and hoped the didn't mean.

They added pictures and words because way more talking and illustration makes it all look and sound cooler.  And who the hell wanted a real coherent, cohesive story and fun game at the end when you could get cool stuff?

Most ridiculous things I've heard in juxtaposition.  The endings are great because conventional victory was impossible.  In order to fight conventionally they would have had to use space magic.  Seriously.

Let's see what the original endings were.

Control
Synthesis
Destroy
Critical Mission Failure/game over

Hmmm, did anything done within 3 games create these choices or determine their outcome if chosen?  Oh yes EMS did.  We gathered war assets that gave us enough points so we could choose these vastly different endings. 

And the game ended really quickly once a choice was made.

Let's see what we got with the EC.

Control
Synthesis
Destroy
Refuse or Critical Mission Failure/game over, the extended version

Longer delay before we can cut through the crap and get the game finished.  Lot's more excuses from the glow boy that further proves he's become unhinged.  All those great war assets gotten through the wonderful story of the fetch quest really no longer need to be completed.  Ending is longer, game could be shorter due to lowered EMS threshold.  Hallelujah, we get to talk more with the thing we hated the most about the original endings.  And he's even stupider than before.  Oh heck no more pretty colors, but wow, we got cool talking.  It's kind of meaningless because a lot of what Shreaper, EDI, and Hackett say really contradict things.  My paragon Shepard is now a crazy sounding sorta evil sounding Shreaper.  EDI says she's alive so she now has a memory problem because she already said that Shepard helped her become alive.  And Hackett seems to be taking credit for all of Shepard's hard work.  This is AWESOME. 

Oh and now the slideshow.  Lots of Krogan pics.  Did someone have a Krogan fixation or what?  And now for the big pay off-worked hard, got 2 demented choices where Shepard dies (no change from the original endings), so let's see the AWESOMENESS of the Shepard lives ending and just how they fixed that torso abomination.  This is going to be great.  All those Krogan pics means they will at least show Shepard up out of all that rubble and we will find out just where Shepard was and she'll get to see her friends one last time in this story in front of us.  Can't wait.  Closure incoming.  WTF?

The star kid is a joke on anyone that wanted an ending befitting these stories.  One that respects the great moments of these games and remembers what Legion and Mordin and Thane and Kaidan/Ashley did.  This is like some amnesiac wrote the ending.  The star kid contradicts even himself.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 27 juillet 2012 - 02:38 .

[Ar7emis]

The Crucible plans should have been transmitted to the Normandy by the Collector General as a final act of defiance against the Reapers after Harbinger releases control of him; so, at the end of ME2 where Joker hands Shepard the datapad, we see plans for the Crucible instead of something totally irrelevant to do with Harbinger.

[xxskyshadowxx]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Okay seriously. DEM's are introduced at the very last second to provide victory. The Crucible was introduced at the very beginning of the game and the Catalyst is first mentioned about halfway through the game. We all knew that we were going to have to use the thing.

The problem is that ME3 is the end of the story, and according to BioWare, the very start of the game is the "end." So, in order to prevent the Catalyst and whatnot from being dconsidered a DEM, it would have had to have been introduced in ME1, or in the earlier to middle part of ME2.

The easiest way for them to have avoided all of that would have been to follow the narrative process of the novelists they were trying to be by planning out the trilogy and outlining it from game 1 to game 3 before development of any of the games occurred, then tweaking the details as they went, rather than create the future installments on the fly with only a vague idea of where to go with it each time.

Modifié par xxskyshadowxx, 27 juillet 2012 - 01:01 .

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

I could have been more diplomatic but, let's face it, the EC was the ending again but delivered more slowly so even the kids at the back of the room could follow along.  Handhold the Line.

Oh yes, exactly.  They added pictures and words because way more talking and illustration makes it all look and sound cooler.  And who the hell wanted a real coherent, cohesive story and fun game at the end when you could get cool stuff?

Most ridiculous things I've heard in juxtaposition.  The endings are great because conventional victory was impossible.  In order to fight conventionally they would have had to use space magic.  Seriously.

Let's see what the original endings were.

Control
Synthesis
Destroy
Critical Mission Failure/game over

Hmmm, did anything done within 3 games create these choices or determine their outcome if chosen?  Oh yes EMS did.  We gathered war assets that gave us enough points so we could choose these vastly different endings. 

And the game ended really quickly once a choice was made.

Let's see what we got with the EC.

Control
Synthesis
Destroy
Refuse or Critical Mission Failure/game over, the extended version

Longer delay before we can cut through the crap and get the game finished.  Lot's more excuses from the glow boy that further proves he's become unhinged.  All those great war assets gotten through the wonderful story of the fetch quest really no longer need to be completed.  Ending is longer, game could be shorter due to lowered EMS threshold.  Hallelujah, we get to talk more with the thing we hated the most about the original endings.  And he's even stupider than before.  Oh heck no more pretty colors, but wow, we got cool talking.  It's kind of meaningless because a lot of what Shreaper, EDI, and Hackett say really contradict things.  My paragon Shepard is now a crazy sounding sorta evil sounding Shreaper.  EDI says she's alive so she now has a memory problem because she already said that Shepard helped her become alive.  And Hackett seems to be taking credit for all of Shepard's hard work.  This is AWESOME. 

Oh and now the slideshow.  Lots of Krogan pics.  Did someone have a Krogan fixation or what?  And now for the big pay off-worked hard, got 2 demented choices where Shepard dies (no change from the original endings), so let's see the AWESOMENESS of the Shepard lives ending and just how they fixed that torso abomination.  This is going to be great.  All those Krogan pics means they will at least show Shepard up out of all that rubble and we will find out just where Shepard was and she'll get to see her friends one last time in this story in front of us.  Can't wait.  Closure incoming.  WTF?

The star kid is a joke on anyone that wanted an ending befitting these stories.  One that respects the great moments of these games and remembers what Legion and Mordin and Thane and Kaidan/Ashley did.  This is like some amnesiac wrote the ending.  The star kid contradicts even himself.

The starkid is irrelivent to how the games ends. He's just a voice box for the reapers. He is just there to expline the reapers nothing more.
Pre-ec I would say that he is a dem. But post -ec he is not becasue it made clear he has no control over what the curcible does.
That why he is not a dem. He solves nothing.

[dreman9999]

xxskyshadowxx wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Okay seriously. DEM's are introduced at the very last second to provide victory. The Crucible was introduced at the very beginning of the game and the Catalyst is first mentioned about halfway through the game. We all knew that we were going to have to use the thing.

The problem is that ME3 is the end of the story, and according to BioWare, the very start of the game is the "end." So, in order to prevent the Catalyst and whatnot from being dconsidered a DEM, it would have had to have been introduced in ME1, or in the earlier to middle part of ME2.

The easiest way for them to have avoided all of that would have been to follow the narrative process of the novelists they were trying to be by planning out the trilogy and outlining it from game 1 to game 3 before development of any of the games occurred, then tweaking the details as they went, rather than create the future installments on the fly with only a vague idea of where to go with it each time.

No. Your missing what a dem is.
The catalyst is not one because it solves nothing.
The crucible was also hinted in lotsb. And even then it does suddenly and unexpecty solve anyththing. It well explined before it's even used from the cerberus base.