173 réponses à ce sujet

[shannonrw]

 I'm getting really irritated at seeing everyone complaining that we couldn't win by conventional methods, and that we should've been able to win that way, etc.

Okay...listen. The reapers have been doing this for millions of years with hundreds or thousands of civilizations. If no other civilization has been able to do it that way, well why the hell would we be able to? What makes US so special?

[De1ta G]

Sticky thread needed. "Is A Conventional Victory Possible?"

[LieutenantSarcasm]

Simple, and it was made abundantly clear in ME1. The Reaper's invasion plan hinged on sucker punching everyone at the citadel, and we are the first cycle in history to break that.

[Eain]

I really hoped that this thread's OP would follow up on the title by reading: "because the writers did their utmost best to destroy any tension and give themselves the opportunity to resolve the plot with some sort of contrived superweapon."

[shannonrw]

LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

Simple, and it was made abundantly clear in ME1. The Reaper's invasion plan hinged on sucker punching everyone at the citadel, and we are the first cycle in history to break that.

Yeah. But you still have to keep in mind that we're still talking about hundreds of thousands of previous civilizations...you don't think that not a SINGLE one of them has come as far as we have? That just doesn't make sense. The citadel thing gave us an advantage, sure, but I'm sure other civilizations have had advantages, too.

[silentassassin264]

LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

Simple, and it was made abundantly clear in ME1. The Reaper's invasion plan hinged on sucker punching everyone at the citadel, and we are the first cycle in history to break that.

No we didn't.  All the leadership in our cycle were still a bunch of stupid derps who ignored the reaper threat with three years of warning.  The Reapers couldn't knockout everything from the Citadel but they did an even more embarrassing slow motion takeover against an unprepared galaxy because they were idiots.  The Reapers still got the drop on the galaxy in ME3 and the galaxy was still largely unprepared. 

[BatmanPWNS]

3 years knowing about the Reaper.............. what reinforcement did Shepard even get in that time?

[LieutenantSarcasm]

shannonrw wrote...

Yeah. But you still have to keep in mind that we're still talking about hundreds of thousands of previous civilizations...you don't think that not a SINGLE one of them has come as far as we have? That just doesn't make sense. The citadel thing gave us an advantage, sure, but I'm sure other civilizations have had advantages, too.

Does it make sense that no-one before dodged it? Not really, but that's besides the point since it was outright stated in ME1. They came right out of the box and told us that no-one ever has, even mentioning the uniterrupted string of signals every 50,000 years.

[Generic Screen Name]

Why not just make more of these?

[legion999]

Those thousands of cycles all got sneak attacked. Their leaders were dead, everyone was isolated and the Reapers knew where everyone was.

Modifié par legion999, 26 juillet 2012 - 11:29 .

[xsdob]

What we needed to do was take advantage of our new found time against the reapers to unite at full strength to fight them, everyone, the council races, the terminus systems, geth, quarian, yahg, batarians, cerberus.

Everyone needed to work together at the end of ME1 for a conventional victory to be possible. That didn't happen, drew wrote that instead everyone went about business as usual and in fact sabotaged each others efforts to give themselves a political edge.

We squandered our chance, that is what makes the refuse ending seem plausible, we give the next cycle the time and means to unite quickly and stop them without the crucible.

Mike gambles twitter is not cannon, only his head cannon, that is a fact. Had this appeared on a offical bioware page like the ME3 twitter or the alliance news network than it would be cannon like emily wong.

It didn't, it came from mike gambles personal twitter and thus is not cannon.

[LieutenantSarcasm]

silentassassin264 wrote...

No we didn't.  All the leadership in our cycle were still a bunch of stupid derps who ignored the reaper threat with three years of warning.  The Reapers couldn't knockout everything from the Citadel but they did an even more embarrassing slow motion takeover against an unprepared galaxy because they were idiots.  The Reapers still got the drop on the galaxy in ME3 and the galaxy was still largely unprepared. 

Drop on the galaxy? Hardly. Leadership is still alive, fleets are still active, and comms are sill active, even if barely so. The council may have been idiots, but the galaxy wasn't crippled in the opening salvo as usual.

[xsdob]

To put my post into a more epic format.

We should have acted.
They're already here.
The Prothean VI told of their return.
Sovereigns defeat was merely delay
Til the time after the Omega 4 relay opened,
When the children of Rannoch would spill their own blood.
But no-one wanted to believe.
Believe they even existed.
And when the truth finally dawns:
It dawns in fire.

But,
There's one they fear.
In their tongue, he's Shovahkiin:
Human Born!

[silentassassin264]

xsdob wrote...

What we needed to do was take advantage of our new found time against the reapers to unite at full strength to fight them, everyone, the council races, the terminus systems, geth, quarian, yahg, batarians, cerberus.

Everyone needed to work together at the end of ME1 for a conventional victory to be possible. That didn't happen, drew wrote that instead everyone went about business as usual and in fact sabotaged each others efforts to give themselves a political edge.

We squandered our chance, that is what makes the refuse ending seem plausible, we give the next cycle the time and means to unite quickly and stop them without the crucible.

Mike gambles twitter is not cannon, only his head cannon, that is a fact. Had this appeared on a offical bioware page like the ME3 twitter or the alliance news network than it would be cannon like emily wong.

It didn't, it came from mike gambles personal twitter and thus is not cannon.

Yes it is but not because gamble wrote it.  The next cycle finds out about the Reapers and everything from Liara's time capsule much like Shepard finds out from the beacon.  Liara's capsule was all about building the crucible as your hope against them.  There is a one hundred percent chance that whoever found out about the Reapers from the Liara capsule would make and use the Crucible.  They might have had better options because they had time to make a better Crucible but they sure as heck made and used the Crucible.

Modifié par silentassassin264, 26 juillet 2012 - 11:29 .

[Strelsky]

LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

Simple, and it was made abundantly clear in ME1. The Reaper's invasion plan hinged on sucker punching everyone at the citadel, and we are the first cycle in history to break that.

[Reofeir]

Like xsdob said, the only way we could of won was if we were prepared after ME1. People asking for a conventional victory at the end of ME3...I can't see it happening. All our forces are now in one place when the whole galaxy is flooded with reapers. Sure, the reapers WOULD take a hit and probably a big one. That's not enough for us to win, however. The best we could do now without the use of the crucible is to weaken them up for the next cycle. Which is what refusal is.

[Reofeir]

silentassassin264 wrote...

xsdob wrote...

What we needed to do was take advantage of our new found time against the reapers to unite at full strength to fight them, everyone, the council races, the terminus systems, geth, quarian, yahg, batarians, cerberus.

Everyone needed to work together at the end of ME1 for a conventional victory to be possible. That didn't happen, drew wrote that instead everyone went about business as usual and in fact sabotaged each others efforts to give themselves a political edge.

We squandered our chance, that is what makes the refuse ending seem plausible, we give the next cycle the time and means to unite quickly and stop them without the crucible.

Mike gambles twitter is not cannon, only his head cannon, that is a fact. Had this appeared on a offical bioware page like the ME3 twitter or the alliance news network than it would be cannon like emily wong.

It didn't, it came from mike gambles personal twitter and thus is not cannon.

Yes it is but not because gamble wrote it.  The next cycle finds out about the Reapers and everything from Liara's time capsule much like Shepard finds out from the beacon.  Liara's capsule was all about building the crucible as your hope against them.  There is a one hundred percent chance that whoever found out about the Reapers from the Liara capsule would make and use the Crucible.  They might have had better options because they had time to make a better Crucible but they sure as heck made and used the Crucible.

From the sound of it from looking at how Liara said it...it seems like this "Crucible" device didn't work when they tried using it. From that point it can go any way. It could be that they DO use it or that they DON'T use it. It's possible to win without it when you know of the reapers early on, however. So yes, without solid proof that they did use it...it's up to you if they did use it or not.

[silentassassin264]

LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

No we didn't.  All the leadership in our cycle were still a bunch of stupid derps who ignored the reaper threat with three years of warning.  The Reapers couldn't knockout everything from the Citadel but they did an even more embarrassing slow motion takeover against an unprepared galaxy because they were idiots.  The Reapers still got the drop on the galaxy in ME3 and the galaxy was still largely unprepared. 

Drop on the galaxy? Hardly. Leadership is still alive, fleets are still active, and comms are sill active, even if barely so. The council may have been idiots, but the galaxy wasn't crippled in the opening salvo as usual.

Batarians dead.  Primarch Fedorian (sp? no clue what they were saying) dead.  Most fleets are wiped out or have taken severe losses.  Heck, most fuel depots are even destroyed.  I'll give you comms but you have to be really high to pretend the galaxy is in some decent shape for a galaxy wide conventional counter attack.  

[Vlk3]

legion999 wrote...

Those thousands of cycles all got sneak attacked. Their leaders were dead, everyone was isolated and the Reapers knew where everyone are.

+
Shepard destroyed powerful species (Collectors) that were helping Reapers= Reapers were weakened.
+
Destroying Sovereign which resulted in (among other things) creating a Thanix Weapon
+
Shepard
+
Uniting all the galaxy against the Reapers

=
Conventional Victory

I believe that conventional victory should be there instead of crucible and catalyst. And this actually would make first two games more significant.

Modifié par Vlk3, 26 juillet 2012 - 11:41 .

[LieutenantSarcasm]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Batarians dead.  Primarch Fedorian (sp? no clue what they were saying) dead.  Most fleets are wiped out or have taken severe losses.  Heck, most fuel depots are even destroyed.  I'll give you comms but you have to be really high to pretend the galaxy is in some decent shape for a galaxy wide conventional counter attack.  

Batarians were a joke to begin with militarily, and still enough survived to form a reasonably effective fleet. (Going by EMS here.) The primarch was quickly replaced, and over half of the turian and human fleets remain intact. (Reading up on codex and EMS ratings.) The salarian fleets were unscathed, the asari had much of their fleets left, and the criminals and pirates banded together with fleets. The only reason the fuel depots seem to be gone is because shepard can't use them and only visits the worst systems in-game. (E.G. The Cyone depot, Sur'Kesh depots, Menae is listed as refuelling, as is another minor planet.)

[silentassassin264]

Vlk3 wrote...

legion999 wrote...

Those thousands of cycles all got sneak attacked. Their leaders were dead, everyone was isolated and the Reapers knew where everyone are.

+
Shepard destroyed powerful species (Collectors) that were helping Reapers= Reapers were weakened.
+
Destroying Sovereign which resulted in (among other things) creating a Thanix Weapon
+
Shepard
+
Uniting all the galaxy against the Reapers

=
Conventional Victory

I believe that conventional victory should be there instead of crucible and catalyst. And this actually would make first two games more significant.

1. The Reapers took all those other cycles out without collectors so destroying them is negligible at best.
+
2. Thanix cannon is nice but the Reapers still have stronger armor than any allied fleet ship.  One Reaper shot destroys allied dreadnought, and it take at least 4 dreadnoughts to take down a Reaper.  
+
3. Shepard versus 2 km tall dreadnought.  Harbinger wins.
+
4.  Uniting and already ripped to shreds galaxy far too late.  The unity of the galaxy in ME3 means nothing.  If they had united in ME1 and stayed united in preparing for the reapers, you would have a legit point and I would be arguing for a conventional victory as well.  As it is, they didn't decide to work together until they all have taken severe losses.  Too litte.  Too late.

=

No Conventional victory

[De1ta G]

How many thanix cannons did you see blowing up reapers? I don't remember seeing one. It took an orbital strike from the quarian fleet to destroy one destroy reaper. It took an entire fleet of alliance ships to destroy Sovereign. The Sovereign class reaper ships outnumber the organic's ships alone. I highly doubt a conventional victory is possible even if the entire galaxy was fully prepared. The reapers are just too powerful.

[The_Shootist]

shannonrw wrote...

 I'm getting really irritated at seeing everyone complaining that we couldn't win by conventional methods, and that we should've been able to win that way, etc.

Okay...listen. The reapers have been doing this for millions of years with hundreds or thousands of civilizations. If no other civilization has been able to do it that way, well why the hell would we be able to? What makes US so special?

There has never been a Shepard in the past billion years.

"I'm don't believe in no-win scenarios." - James Tiberius Kirk.

Frodo beat Sauron
Covenant defeated Lord Foul
Sheridan defeated the Shadows and the Vorlons.
Shepard could defeat the Reapers (given better writers, I suppose).  All that needed be done, was for Shepard to change the rules.

Modifié par The_Shootist, 27 juillet 2012 - 12:03 .

[silentassassin264]

LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

Batarians were a joke to begin with militarily, and still enough survived to form a reasonably effective fleet. (Going by EMS here.) The primarch was quickly replaced, and over half of the turian and human fleets remain intact. (Reading up on codex and EMS ratings.) The salarian fleets were unscathed, the asari had much of their fleets left, and the criminals and pirates banded together with fleets. The only reason the fuel depots seem to be gone is because shepard can't use them and only visits the worst systems in-game. (E.G. The Cyone depot, Sur'Kesh depots, Menae is listed as refuelling, as is another minor planet.)

EMS means next to nothing.  The Quarian fleet is about as useful (slightly more actually) than the Geth Fleet which has hyper advanced super dreadnoughts as well as the ability to spare no expense because they have no economics to worry about (or mining hazards).  The turian Fleet is supposed to be the best in the galaxy and the Quarians EMS beats them still.  Lastly, the Alliance Fleet beats everyone in EMS even though they were thoroughly totalled at Arcturus.  The EMS reflects a gameplay mechanic, not established lore for calling for a conventional victory.  The lore has most capable fleets heavily damaged and on the ropes.  

[De1ta G]

The_Shootist wrote...

shannonrw wrote...

 I'm getting really irritated at seeing everyone complaining that we couldn't win by conventional methods, and that we should've been able to win that way, etc.

Okay...listen. The reapers have been doing this for millions of years with hundreds or thousands of civilizations. If no other civilization has been able to do it that way, well why the hell would we be able to? What makes US so special?

There has never been a Shepard in the past billion years.

If a reaper was destroyed everytime Shepard looked at one or punched one, then that would mean something. Shepard is just really good a surviving things.