173 réponses à ce sujet

[silentassassin264]

The_Shootist wrote...

shannonrw wrote...

 I'm getting really irritated at seeing everyone complaining that we couldn't win by conventional methods, and that we should've been able to win that way, etc.

Okay...listen. The reapers have been doing this for millions of years with hundreds or thousands of civilizations. If no other civilization has been able to do it that way, well why the hell would we be able to? What makes US so special?

There has never been a Shepard in the past billion years.

Javik.

[blueumi]

The_Shootist wrote...

shannonrw wrote...

 I'm getting really irritated at seeing everyone complaining that we couldn't win by conventional methods, and that we should've been able to win that way, etc.

Okay...listen. The reapers have been doing this for millions of years with hundreds or thousands of civilizations. If no other civilization has been able to do it that way, well why the hell would we be able to? What makes US so special?

There has never been a Shepard in the past billion years.

true after all a video game is meant to make the world revolve around you so shep should be able to do it after all it's a game

[De1ta G]

silentassassin264 wrote...

LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

Batarians were a joke to begin with militarily, and still enough survived to form a reasonably effective fleet. (Going by EMS here.) The primarch was quickly replaced, and over half of the turian and human fleets remain intact. (Reading up on codex and EMS ratings.) The salarian fleets were unscathed, the asari had much of their fleets left, and the criminals and pirates banded together with fleets. The only reason the fuel depots seem to be gone is because shepard can't use them and only visits the worst systems in-game. (E.G. The Cyone depot, Sur'Kesh depots, Menae is listed as refuelling, as is another minor planet.)

EMS means next to nothing.  The Quarian fleet is about as useful (slightly more actually) than the Geth Fleet which has hyper advanced super dreadnoughts as well as the ability to spare no expense because they have no economics to worry about (or mining hazards).  The turian Fleet is supposed to be the best in the galaxy and the Quarians EMS beats them still.  Lastly, the Alliance Fleet beats everyone in EMS even though they were thoroughly totalled at Arcturus.  The EMS reflects a gameplay mechanic, not established lore for calling for a conventional victory.  The lore has most capable fleets heavily damaged and on the ropes.  

I thought the geth only had one "hyper advanced super dreadnought" and it was unecessarily, and stupidly destroyed. 

[LieutenantSarcasm]

silentassassin264 wrote...

EMS means next to nothing.  The Quarian fleet is about as useful (slightly more actually) than the Geth Fleet which has hyper advanced super dreadnoughts as well as the ability to spare no expense because they have no economics to worry about (or mining hazards).  The turian Fleet is supposed to be the best in the galaxy and the Quarians EMS beats them still.  Lastly, the Alliance Fleet beats everyone in EMS even though they were thoroughly totalled at Arcturus.  The EMS reflects a gameplay mechanic, not established lore for calling for a conventional victory.  The lore has most capable fleets heavily damaged and on the ropes.  

Sorry for the confusion, but I did not mean the actual EMS points, but rather the description of the assets involved. I agree the points are worthless, but the description of the assets matches that of the codex: the fleets are bloodied, but still capable.

[LieutenantSarcasm]

De1ta G wrote...

How many thanix cannons did you see blowing up reapers? I don't remember seeing one. It took an orbital strike from the quarian fleet to destroy one destroy reaper. It took an entire fleet of alliance ships to destroy Sovereign. The Sovereign class reaper ships outnumber the organic's ships alone. I highly doubt a conventional victory is possible even if the entire galaxy was fully prepared. The reapers are just too powerful.

The lack of thanix is a mistake by the devs, the normandy even only uses it to knock out some wimpy oculus drones instead of obliterating capitals. On the orbital strike, those clearly weren't the main guns. There'd be no more shepard if they were. It was one fleet to destroy sovereign AND HIS GETH SUPPORT ARMADA, and they only lost eight cruisers to boot. I find the idea that the reaper capital ships outnumer organics to be laughable, as there are tens of thousands of organic ships.

[De1ta G]

LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

De1ta G wrote...

How many thanix cannons did you see blowing up reapers? I don't remember seeing one. It took an orbital strike from the quarian fleet to destroy one destroy reaper. It took an entire fleet of alliance ships to destroy Sovereign. The Sovereign class reaper ships outnumber the organic's ships alone. I highly doubt a conventional victory is possible even if the entire galaxy was fully prepared. The reapers are just too powerful.

The lack of thanix is a mistake by the devs, the normandy even only uses it to knock out some wimpy oculus drones instead of obliterating capitals. On the orbital strike, those clearly weren't the main guns. There'd be no more shepard if they were. It was one fleet to destroy sovereign AND HIS GETH SUPPORT ARMADA, and they only lost eight cruisers to boot. I find the idea that the reaper capital ships outnumer organics to be laughable, as there are tens of thousands of organic ships.

Who knows how many cycles the reapers have harvested? I would imagine a lot more than tens of thousands. 

EDIT: Plus, all the reapers have to do is charge into the organic's ships to destroy them. They don't even need to use their lasers, which destroys dreadnoughts in one shot. 

Modifié par De1ta G, 27 juillet 2012 - 12:05 .

[LateNightSalami]

Conventional victory (or some other creative means of beating the reapers under one's own power) should be possible because the alternative is poorly conceived plot devices that rob the player of feeling like they impacted the end. They promised that we wouldn't be looking for the long lost reaper off switch and that is exactly what we ended up getting...only in such a poorly implemented way that we didn't even feel like we found the switch. Rather we are gifted the ability to flip the switch because the god kid thinks it is now necessary, except he doesn't think it is necessary because he just continues if you refuse rather than following through on a new solution...oh and destroy (from his word of mouth) is not even a solution by his definition...sorry I got rambling and ranting but it is these types of contradictions that arise when you forcibly take the power to solve the central conflict away from the protagonist.

[silentassassin264]

LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

EMS means next to nothing.  The Quarian fleet is about as useful (slightly more actually) than the Geth Fleet which has hyper advanced super dreadnoughts as well as the ability to spare no expense because they have no economics to worry about (or mining hazards).  The turian Fleet is supposed to be the best in the galaxy and the Quarians EMS beats them still.  Lastly, the Alliance Fleet beats everyone in EMS even though they were thoroughly totalled at Arcturus.  The EMS reflects a gameplay mechanic, not established lore for calling for a conventional victory.  The lore has most capable fleets heavily damaged and on the ropes.  

Sorry for the confusion, but I did not mean the actual EMS points, but rather the description of the assets involved. I agree the points are worthless, but the description of the assets matches that of the codex: the fleets are bloodied, but still capable.

Still capable of fighting a normal enemy with brilliantly played tactics maybe.  Capable of fighting a hyperadvanced machine race that outtechs them and out numbers them?  No.  Any outright conventional battle would result in too many losses to keep on going and any guerilla war would draw out the war but would put a severe strain on resources since the Reapers targetted supply lines and manufacturing centers first (and the reapers don't need supply lines).  They are not in shape to win against the Reapers.  The started trying to do something about the reapers far too late.

[LieutenantSarcasm]

De1ta G wrote...

Who knows how many cycles the reapers have harvested? I would imagine a lot more than tens of thousands. 

Just some simple math (10k * 50k) states that it would take 500 million years for 10k reaper capital ships. That is orders of magnitude longer than any other mention of how long they've been reaping, and they still wouldn't reach parity at 10k.

Since I don't want to doublepost again, I'll edit this in: IT IS VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE REAPERS TO OUTNUMBER THE ORGANICS. We've been given their rate of production. We've been given rough dates of earliest reaping records. We can do the math.

Modifié par LieutenantSarcasm, 27 juillet 2012 - 12:08 .

[De1ta G]

It took two shots with a thanix cannon to take down a Collector ship. Now I imagine a collector ship is a lot weaker than a reaper because you can destroy it quite easily without the thanix cannon. The reapers laser destroy the organic's most powerful vessels in one shot. Reapers win.

[LieutenantSarcasm]

De1ta G wrote...

It took two shots with a thanix cannon to take down a Collector ship. Now I imagine a collector ship is a lot weaker than a reaper because you can destroy it quite easily without the thanix cannon. The reapers laser destroy the organic's most powerful vessels in one shot. Reapers win.

The logic there is sound, but unfortunately they went out and stated that the capital ships can't stand up to four organic dreadnoughts, and can barely stand up to three. There are over a hundred dreadnouts in organic fleets. If they focus fire, they can wipe out reapers at a astonishing pace.

[De1ta G]

LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

De1ta G wrote...

Who knows how many cycles the reapers have harvested? I would imagine a lot more than tens of thousands. 

Just some simple math (10k * 50k) states that it would take 500 million years for 10k reaper capital ships. That is orders of magnitude longer than any other mention of how long they've been reaping, and they still wouldn't reach parity at 10k.

Since I don't want to doublepost again, I'll edit this in: IT IS VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE REAPERS TO OUTNUMBER THE ORGANICS. We've been given their rate of production. We've been given rough dates of earliest reaping records. We can do the math.

But there is no exact date of earliest reaping records. They could have been reaping for billions of years.

[silentassassin264]

LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

De1ta G wrote...

Who knows how many cycles the reapers have harvested? I would imagine a lot more than tens of thousands. 

Just some simple math (10k * 50k) states that it would take 500 million years for 10k reaper capital ships. That is orders of magnitude longer than any other mention of how long they've been reaping, and they still wouldn't reach parity at 10k.

Since I don't want to doublepost again, I'll edit this in: IT IS VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE REAPERS TO OUTNUMBER THE ORGANICS. We've been given their rate of production. We've been given rough dates of earliest reaping records. We can do the math.

You can't really do the math because you don't know one important variable...namely how many ships they come away with each cycle.  If they preserve each species at least once you would have to know how many species there were in each cycle..and you don't.  Two, you don't know if they only make one capital ship per species.  They might have decided humans were especially tasty..err useful and they wanted two or three to cover all of our tasty..useful genetic diversity (that was never mentioned again after ME2).  Your math is therefore is illogical and draws no real conclusion.

[ZLurps]

LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

De1ta G wrote...

Who knows how many cycles the reapers have harvested? I would imagine a lot more than tens of thousands. 

Just some simple math (10k * 50k) states that it would take 500 million years for 10k reaper capital ships. That is orders of magnitude longer than any other mention of how long they've been reaping, and they still wouldn't reach parity at 10k.

Since I don't want to doublepost again, I'll edit this in: IT IS VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE REAPERS TO OUTNUMBER THE ORGANICS. We've been given their rate of production. We've been given rough dates of earliest reaping records. We can do the math.

YOU MAKE VERY BOLD STATEMENTS WITH CAPITAL LETTERS, EVEN YOU DON'T KNOW ****.


The Leviathan of Dis[/b] is the name given to a gigantic corpse that disappeared from a crater on Jartar in 2163. It is believed to be the remains of a genetically engineered starship and its age was originally placed at nearly a billion years old.


Provided he survived the events of Bring Down the Sky, Balak will tell Shepard that the Leviathan was actually an inactive Reaper which ended up indoctrinating most of the system when the scientists accidentally reactivated it.
Afterwards they infiltrated and sabotaged the Hegemony's defenses opening the way for the Reaper invasion of their territory.

masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Leviathan_of_Dis

Modifié par ZLurps, 27 juillet 2012 - 12:15 .

[De1ta G]

LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

De1ta G wrote...

It took two shots with a thanix cannon to take down a Collector ship. Now I imagine a collector ship is a lot weaker than a reaper because you can destroy it quite easily without the thanix cannon. The reapers laser destroy the organic's most powerful vessels in one shot. Reapers win.

The logic there is sound, but unfortunately they went out and stated that the capital ships can't stand up to four organic dreadnoughts, and can barely stand up to three. There are over a hundred dreadnouts in organic fleets. If they focus fire, they can wipe out reapers at a astonishing pace.

First off all. I want to see where you got that information.

And second, that's not what I saw during the assault on the reapers over Earth. I saw them taking  fire from the entire galatic fleet and not even getting scratched, with the exception of the one that appears to be destroyed. Even with high EMS you see more organic ships being destroyed than reapers.

[silentassassin264]

De1ta G wrote...

LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

De1ta G wrote...

It took two shots with a thanix cannon to take down a Collector ship. Now I imagine a collector ship is a lot weaker than a reaper because you can destroy it quite easily without the thanix cannon. The reapers laser destroy the organic's most powerful vessels in one shot. Reapers win.

The logic there is sound, but unfortunately they went out and stated that the capital ships can't stand up to four organic dreadnoughts, and can barely stand up to three. There are over a hundred dreadnouts in organic fleets. If they focus fire, they can wipe out reapers at a astonishing pace.

First off all. I want to see where you got that information.

And second, that's not what I saw during the assault on the reapers over Earth. I saw them taking  fire from the entire galatic fleet and not even getting scratched, with the exception of the one that appears to be destroyed. Even with high EMS you see more organic ships being destroyed than reapers.

It is in the codex on Reaper Vulnerabilities.  He does however leave out the fact that one Reaper destroys a bunch of dreadnoughts at an even more astonishing rate.  One shot from a Reaper is game over.  

[LieutenantSarcasm]

silentassassin264 wrote...

You can't really do the math because you don't know one important variable...namely how many ships they come away with each cycle.  If they preserve each species at least once you would have to know how many species there were in each cycle..and you don't.  Two, you don't know if they only make one capital ship per species.  They might have decided humans were especially tasty..err useful and they wanted two or three to cover all of our tasty..useful genetic diversity (that was never mentioned again after ME2).  Your math is therefore is illogical and draws no real conclusion.

All evidence we have points to only one ship per race. Indeed, each of them is a nation, to quote sovereign. It was also pointed out that they only pick one species to make into capitals. On top of this, the earliest date of reaping is 37.5 million years, well below the nessecary number, and that makes an assumption of zero reaper losses. Considering they lost 4 captals at palaven (Thanks, codex!) against just 3 turian fleets, and combined with the dead reaper from 2 and the leviathan, we know that is untrue. Once again, reaper production rates are far too low to seriously outnumber organics. Based off of cutscenes and background info, I wouldn't put their numbers over 500 in capitals.

[ZLurps]

De1ta G wrote...

LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

De1ta G wrote...

It took two shots with a thanix cannon to take down a Collector ship. Now I imagine a collector ship is a lot weaker than a reaper because you can destroy it quite easily without the thanix cannon. The reapers laser destroy the organic's most powerful vessels in one shot. Reapers win.

The logic there is sound, but unfortunately they went out and stated that the capital ships can't stand up to four organic dreadnoughts, and can barely stand up to three. There are over a hundred dreadnouts in organic fleets. If they focus fire, they can wipe out reapers at a astonishing pace.

First off all. I want to see where you got that information.

And second, that's not what I saw during the assault on the reapers over Earth. I saw them taking  fire from the entire galatic fleet and not even getting scratched, with the exception of the one that appears to be destroyed. Even with high EMS you see more organic ships being destroyed than reapers.

It's from ME3, Turians were able to ambush Reaper ship. They estimated that with conventional weapons it would take concentrated fire of 4 dreadnougts or 3 dreadnoughts with Thanix to destroy Reaper dreadnought, sorry I don't have a link and I don't see it relevent because they don't have staying power.

It's scenarion where we always need surprise on our side and we are ****ed if there are more enemy ships because they can one shot anything we have. Offence is important, but the main problem is, that galactic fleet doesn't have staying power, or numbers to make up for lack of staying power.

[LateNightSalami]

De1ta G wrote...

LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

De1ta G wrote...

It took two shots with a thanix cannon to take down a Collector ship. Now I imagine a collector ship is a lot weaker than a reaper because you can destroy it quite easily without the thanix cannon. The reapers laser destroy the organic's most powerful vessels in one shot. Reapers win.

The logic there is sound, but unfortunately they went out and stated that the capital ships can't stand up to four organic dreadnoughts, and can barely stand up to three. There are over a hundred dreadnouts in organic fleets. If they focus fire, they can wipe out reapers at a astonishing pace.

First off all. I want to see where you got that information.

And second, that's not what I saw during the assault on the reapers over Earth. I saw them taking  fire from the entire galatic fleet and not even getting scratched, with the exception of the one that appears to be destroyed. Even with high EMS you see more organic ships being destroyed than reapers.

My issue with these discussions are that debates about lore are completely beside the point: which is that not having a conventional means (or some other creative means) of victory means that you need plot devices that amount to amateurish writing to be able to solve the central conflict. This serves to rob the player/protagonist of being able to sovle the central conflict on their own merits which makes for an unsatisfactory experience. In short, not having a conventional victory of some kind makes for contrived and contradictory storytelling, which is exactly what we got.

[ZLurps]

LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

You can't really do the math because you don't know one important variable...namely how many ships they come away with each cycle.  If they preserve each species at least once you would have to know how many species there were in each cycle..and you don't.  Two, you don't know if they only make one capital ship per species.  They might have decided humans were especially tasty..err useful and they wanted two or three to cover all of our tasty..useful genetic diversity (that was never mentioned again after ME2).  Your math is therefore is illogical and draws no real conclusion.

...snip.. and the leviathan, we know that is untrue. Once again, reaper production rates are far too low to seriously outnumber organics. Based off of cutscenes and background info, I wouldn't put their numbers over 500 in capitals.

Bull****, I just posted relevant Wiki entry couple of posts ago, it's billion years old and it's a Reaper.

Modifié par ZLurps, 27 juillet 2012 - 12:22 .

[LieutenantSarcasm]

ZLurps wrote...


YOU MAKE VERY BOLD STATEMENTS WITH CAPITAL LETTERS, EVEN YOU DON'T KNOW ****.


The Leviathan of Dis[/b] is the name given to a gigantic corpse that disappeared from a crater on Jartar in 2163. It is believed to be the remains of a genetically engineered starship and its age was originally placed at nearly a billion years old.


Provided he survived the events of Bring Down the Sky, Balak will tell Shepard that the Leviathan was actually an inactive Reaper which ended up indoctrinating most of the system when the scientists accidentally reactivated it.
Afterwards they infiltrated and sabotaged the Hegemony's defenses opening the way for the Reaper invasion of their territory.

masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Leviathan_of_Dis

Your own post defeats your own argument. Even extended to one billion years, they still wouldn't have reached parity with the 30k plus organic ships (All fleets, including quarians and geth, and civilans to use as ablative armor) available. And once again, that's assuming zero casualties, which we know to be false.

[silentassassin264]

LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

You can't really do the math because you don't know one important variable...namely how many ships they come away with each cycle.  If they preserve each species at least once you would have to know how many species there were in each cycle..and you don't.  Two, you don't know if they only make one capital ship per species.  They might have decided humans were especially tasty..err useful and they wanted two or three to cover all of our tasty..useful genetic diversity (that was never mentioned again after ME2).  Your math is therefore is illogical and draws no real conclusion.

All evidence we have points to only one ship per race. Indeed, each of them is a nation, to quote sovereign. It was also pointed out that they only pick one species to make into capitals. On top of this, the earliest date of reaping is 37.5 million years, well below the nessecary number, and that makes an assumption of zero reaper losses. Considering they lost 4 captals at palaven (Thanks, codex!) against just 3 turian fleets, and combined with the dead reaper from 2 and the leviathan, we know that is untrue. Once again, reaper production rates are far too low to seriously outnumber organics. Based off of cutscenes and background info, I wouldn't put their numbers over 500 in capitals.

It was never pointed out that they only pick one species to be a capital.  The Catalyst says that they harvest all the races to preserve them in reaper form (AIs included).  Sorry but you are quite wrong.  The only other time it is speculated on the frequency of Reaper ships created is when EDI comes to the erroneous conclusion that the Protheans were not made into a capital ship.

Modifié par silentassassin264, 27 juillet 2012 - 12:24 .

[De1ta G]

silentassassin264 wrote...

De1ta G wrote...

LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

De1ta G wrote...

It took two shots with a thanix cannon to take down a Collector ship. Now I imagine a collector ship is a lot weaker than a reaper because you can destroy it quite easily without the thanix cannon. The reapers laser destroy the organic's most powerful vessels in one shot. Reapers win.

The logic there is sound, but unfortunately they went out and stated that the capital ships can't stand up to four organic dreadnoughts, and can barely stand up to three. There are over a hundred dreadnouts in organic fleets. If they focus fire, they can wipe out reapers at a astonishing pace.

First off all. I want to see where you got that information.

And second, that's not what I saw during the assault on the reapers over Earth. I saw them taking  fire from the entire galatic fleet and not even getting scratched, with the exception of the one that appears to be destroyed. Even with high EMS you see more organic ships being destroyed than reapers.

It is in the codex on Reaper Vulnerabilities.  He does however leave out the fact that one Reaper destroys a bunch of dreadnoughts at an even more astonishing rate.  One shot from a Reaper is game over.  

Must of missed that in the codex then... 

But anyway, here's how it would work. You need 4 dreadnoughts to surround the reaper and start firing so they can get efficent and precise shots.  It's going to take some dreadnoughts being destroyed before the reapers has taken enough damage that is the equivalent of 4 dreadnoughts. So a 4:1 ratio wouldn't even be correct. More like 6-8:1 I would think.

Modifié par De1ta G, 27 juillet 2012 - 12:30 .

[silentassassin264]

LateNightSalami wrote...

De1ta G wrote...

LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

De1ta G wrote...

It took two shots with a thanix cannon to take down a Collector ship. Now I imagine a collector ship is a lot weaker than a reaper because you can destroy it quite easily without the thanix cannon. The reapers laser destroy the organic's most powerful vessels in one shot. Reapers win.

The logic there is sound, but unfortunately they went out and stated that the capital ships can't stand up to four organic dreadnoughts, and can barely stand up to three. There are over a hundred dreadnouts in organic fleets. If they focus fire, they can wipe out reapers at a astonishing pace.

First off all. I want to see where you got that information.

And second, that's not what I saw during the assault on the reapers over Earth. I saw them taking  fire from the entire galatic fleet and not even getting scratched, with the exception of the one that appears to be destroyed. Even with high EMS you see more organic ships being destroyed than reapers.

My issue with these discussions are that debates about lore are completely beside the point: which is that not having a conventional means (or some other creative means) of victory means that you need plot devices that amount to amateurish writing to be able to solve the central conflict. This serves to rob the player/protagonist of being able to sovle the central conflict on their own merits which makes for an unsatisfactory experience. In short, not having a conventional victory of some kind makes for contrived and contradictory storytelling, which is exactly what we got.

It is not amateurish writing to have a Deus Ex Machina especially if it is strongly hinted in the beginning.  Granted ME never hinted at the Crucible because Mac Walters and Casey Hudson made it up in the last part of a trilogy but the planet Ploba for example was hinted to be some sort of supercomputer "Jupiter Brain" from the beginning.  If using Ploba was required in some Deus Ex Machina to defeat the Reapers, it would have made sense.  Heck, if Ploba had been the Catalyst, I might have been somewhat satisfied.  ME3 ending sucked because of amateurish writing, not because of the involvement of Deus Ex Machina.

[ZLurps]

LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

ZLurps wrote...


YOU MAKE VERY BOLD STATEMENTS WITH CAPITAL LETTERS, EVEN YOU DON'T KNOW ****.


The Leviathan of Dis[/b] is the name given to a gigantic corpse that disappeared from a crater on Jartar in 2163. It is believed to be the remains of a genetically engineered starship and its age was originally placed at nearly a billion years old.


Provided he survived the events of Bring Down the Sky, Balak will tell Shepard that the Leviathan was actually an inactive Reaper which ended up indoctrinating most of the system when the scientists accidentally reactivated it.
Afterwards they infiltrated and sabotaged the Hegemony's defenses opening the way for the Reaper invasion of their territory.

masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Leviathan_of_Dis

Your own post defeats your own argument. Even extended to one billion years, they still wouldn't have reached parity with the 30k plus organic ships (All fleets, including quarians and geth, and civilans to use as ablative armor) available. And once again, that's assuming zero casualties, which we know to be false.

Firepower that matters is dreadnoughts and cruisers, which galactic fleets have a handful, less than 100 and even that is being generous. You can throw 20.000 kitchen sinks against modern panzer and hardly make a dent.

Meanwhile: one billion / 50 000 = twenty thousand and those are Dreads. Yeah, maybe they took some losses, can't really see it would make a difference if they lost 5000, or even 10.000 ships, when you count that they also make destroyers from races that are not made to dreadnoughts.