173 réponses à ce sujet

[LieutenantSarcasm]

silentassassin264 wrote...

It was never pointed out that they only pick one species to be a capital.  The Catalyst says that they harvest all the races to preserve them in reaper form (AIs included).  Sorry but you are quite wrong.  The only other time it is speculated on the frequency of Reaper ships created is when EDI comes to the erroneous conclusion that the Protheans were not made into a capital ship.

I'm going to have to link for proof, and here I though forumites knew the lore. http://masseffect.wi...dex/The_Reapers <- Read this. ALL OF THIS. The reapers can't survive concentrated dreadnought fire. "4 is certain destruction." They only produce one capship a cycle "Experts believe the Reapers harvest a single species..." The rest are made into destroyers. "Research suggests destroyers are created from species that are not harvested to make capital ships." I'm sorry, but the lore clearly states that the reapers cannot outnumber the organics with capital ships. It just doesn't happen. I already did the math.

[LateNightSalami]

silentassassin264 wrote...

LateNightSalami wrote...

De1ta G wrote...

LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

De1ta G wrote...

It took two shots with a thanix cannon to take down a Collector ship. Now I imagine a collector ship is a lot weaker than a reaper because you can destroy it quite easily without the thanix cannon. The reapers laser destroy the organic's most powerful vessels in one shot. Reapers win.

The logic there is sound, but unfortunately they went out and stated that the capital ships can't stand up to four organic dreadnoughts, and can barely stand up to three. There are over a hundred dreadnouts in organic fleets. If they focus fire, they can wipe out reapers at a astonishing pace.

First off all. I want to see where you got that information.

And second, that's not what I saw during the assault on the reapers over Earth. I saw them taking  fire from the entire galatic fleet and not even getting scratched, with the exception of the one that appears to be destroyed. Even with high EMS you see more organic ships being destroyed than reapers.

My issue with these discussions are that debates about lore are completely beside the point: which is that not having a conventional means (or some other creative means) of victory means that you need plot devices that amount to amateurish writing to be able to solve the central conflict. This serves to rob the player/protagonist of being able to sovle the central conflict on their own merits which makes for an unsatisfactory experience. In short, not having a conventional victory of some kind makes for contrived and contradictory storytelling, which is exactly what we got.

It is not amateurish writing to have a Deus Ex Machina especially if it is strongly hinted in the beginning.  Granted ME never hinted at the Crucible because Mac Walters and Casey Hudson made it up in the last part of a trilogy but the planet Ploba for example was hinted to be some sort of supercomputer "Jupiter Brain" from the beginning.  If using Ploba was required in some Deus Ex Machina to defeat the Reapers, it would have made sense.  Heck, if Ploba had been the Catalyst, I might have been somewhat satisfied.  ME3 ending sucked because of amateurish writing, not because of the involvement of Deus Ex Machina.

Strictly speaking I tend to think of the crucible as a MacGuffin. Which is definitely forgivable if it is implemented in a way as to engage teh player. However, as I noted in my post, the implementation of this macguffin only served to add contradiciton and contrivance that took the narrative power away from the player/protagonist. Hopefully that clarifies what I am getting at. I suppose it was the implementation more than the macguffin itself but resorting to such a device tends to put you behind, not ahead, and in this case they just got further and further as they tried to force it into the plot.

[LieutenantSarcasm]

ZLurps wrote...

Firepower that matters is dreadnoughts and cruisers, which galactic fleets have a handful, less than 100 and even that is being generous. You can throw 20.000 kitchen sinks against modern panzer and hardly make a dent.

Meanwhile: one billion / 50 000 = twenty thousand and those are Dreads. Yeah, maybe they took some losses, can't really see it would make a difference if they lost 5000, or even 10.000 ships, when you count that they also make destroyers from races that are not made to dreadnoughts.

I think one hundred would be fair, inculding makeshift dreadnoughts (Liveships) and the Uber-Dreadnought that is the Destiny Ascension, that is clearly stronger than one normal.  Also, dumping 20k sinks on a modern tank will knock it out, burying it in rubble. Much as enough weaker guns would overwhelm the reapers.

[silentassassin264]

LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

It was never pointed out that they only pick one species to be a capital.  The Catalyst says that they harvest all the races to preserve them in reaper form (AIs included).  Sorry but you are quite wrong.  The only other time it is speculated on the frequency of Reaper ships created is when EDI comes to the erroneous conclusion that the Protheans were not made into a capital ship.

I'm going to have to link for proof, and here I though forumites knew the lore. http://masseffect.wi...dex/The_Reapers <- Read this. ALL OF THIS. The reapers can't survive concentrated dreadnought fire. "4 is certain destruction." They only produce one capship a cycle "Experts believe the Reapers harvest a single species..." The rest are made into destroyers. "Research suggests destroyers are created from species that are not harvested to make capital ships." I'm sorry, but the lore clearly states that the reapers cannot outnumber the organics with capital ships. It just doesn't happen. I already did the math.

Experts believe, aka, they have no clue as the only person from the last cycle was Javik and he was in no position to confirm.  The codexes are written from an in-game perspective and are as reliable as EDIs erroneous speculation from game 2.  The codex also talks about how the Collector General leads the collectors and can control them remotely, etc. etc. whereas the truth is that the Collector General is a miserable dumb mook and Harbinger was remotely running the show.  I am going with the Catalyst on this one.

[Phatose]

Wow guys. You're totally ignoring the Reaper's single most powerful weapon.

Indoctrination.

If the Galaxy has 100,000 dreadnoughts.....well, how long is it gonna be before 50,000 of those are fighting for the reapers?

[De1ta G]

LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

It was never pointed out that they only pick one species to be a capital.  The Catalyst says that they harvest all the races to preserve them in reaper form (AIs included).  Sorry but you are quite wrong.  The only other time it is speculated on the frequency of Reaper ships created is when EDI comes to the erroneous conclusion that the Protheans were not made into a capital ship.

I'm going to have to link for proof, and here I though forumites knew the lore. http://masseffect.wi...dex/The_Reapers <- Read this. ALL OF THIS. The reapers can't survive concentrated dreadnought fire. "4 is certain destruction." They only produce one capship a cycle "Experts believe the Reapers harvest a single species..." The rest are made into destroyers. "Research suggests destroyers are created from species that are not harvested to make capital ships." I'm sorry, but the lore clearly states that the reapers cannot outnumber the organics with capital ships. It just doesn't happen. I already did the math.

Concentrated is the key there. While the dreadnoughts are targeting and concentrating their shots on one reaper, the reaper has already destroyed multiple dreadnoughts. Then once they start firing on the reaper, the reaper destroys more dreadnoughts.

And maybe yes, they can't outnumber them. I'm starting to be convinced about that, but if they have been harvesting for billions of years then their numbers will be close enough and their firepower and super crazy strong shields makes up for it.
 

Modifié par De1ta G, 27 juillet 2012 - 12:38 .

[ZLurps]

LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

It was never pointed out that they only pick one species to be a capital.  The Catalyst says that they harvest all the races to preserve them in reaper form (AIs included).  Sorry but you are quite wrong.  The only other time it is speculated on the frequency of Reaper ships created is when EDI comes to the erroneous conclusion that the Protheans were not made into a capital ship.

I'm going to have to link for proof, and here I though forumites knew the lore. http://masseffect.wi...dex/The_Reapers <- Read this. ALL OF THIS. The reapers can't survive concentrated dreadnought fire. "4 is certain destruction." They only produce one capship a cycle "Experts believe the Reapers harvest a single species..." The rest are made into destroyers. "Research suggests destroyers are created from species that are not harvested to make capital ships." I'm sorry, but the lore clearly states that the reapers cannot outnumber the organics with capital ships. It just doesn't happen. I already did the math.

As of 2185, the dreadnought count was 39 turian, 20 asari, 16 salarian, and 8 human. By 2186, humans construct a ninth dreadnought, and the volus have built a single dreadnought of their own.

masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Dreadnought#Dreadnoughts


So excluding Quarian and Geth, the galactic raced had 85 dreanoughts.

Then Alliance lost several when Reapers attacked Earth, I don't know numbers of Turian losses.

You did the math?

Modifié par ZLurps, 27 juillet 2012 - 12:39 .

[Moress]

in addition to what I'm seeing here, which is the galaxy at large ignoring shepard's warnings...

it took a fairly large fleet to take out Sovreign...just Sovreign...one reaper...god knows how many came in the real invasion

[LieutenantSarcasm]

[quote]ZLurps wrote...

I'm going to have to link for proof, and here I though forumites knew the lore. http://masseffect.wi...dex/The_Reapers <- Read this. ALL OF THIS. The reapers can't survive concentrated dreadnought fire. "4 is certain destruction." They only produce one capship a cycle "Experts believe the Reapers harvest a single species..." The rest are made into destroyers. "Research suggests destroyers are created from species that are not harvested to make capital ships." I'm sorry, but the lore clearly states that the reapers cannot outnumber the organics with capital ships. It just doesn't happen. I already did the math.[/quote]


As of 2185, the dreadnought count was 39 turian, 20 asari, 16 salarian, and 8 human. By 2186, humans construct a ninth dreadnought, and the volus have built a single dreadnought of their own.

masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Dreadnought#Dreadnoughts


So excluding Quarian and Geth, the galactic raced had 85 dreanoughts.

Then Alliance lost several when Reapers attacked Earth, I don't know numbers of Turian losses.

You did the math?



[/quote]

Yes, considering that all dreadnoughts are not equal. The Volus is all-thanix. The DA is big mclargehuge. Quarian ones, which I am baffled at you not including, are also more powerful than a standard dreadnought. Even the salarians have applied stealth and thanix to their dreadnoughts, so 100 is more than fair here. And for the guys arguing about concentration, that's what the thousands of other ships are for. Ablative armor and confusion. To finish the arguments off, indoctrination only works in close proximity. And slowly.

[Arturia Pendragon]

ME3 was written in a way that made conventional victory impossible. Had it been possible, it would have been written differently. Using evidence from ME3 as explanation for the impossibility of conventional victory is flawed. The only way you can show that conventional victory is impossible is by using evidence from ME1 and/or ME2.

Example:
Conventional victory person: Why isn't this shirt blue?
IMPOSSIBLE YO person: Because it's red.
Conventional victory person: Well why couldn't it have been blue?
IMPOSSIBLE YO person: Because it's red.
Conventional victory person: How does its current state prevent it from being blue in the first place?
IMPOSSIBLE YO person: Because it's red.
Conventional victory person:

Nothing about ME1 or ME2 makes conventional victory impossible. Improbable, maybe, but not impossible. It's a good thing Shepard's story hasn't been about gathering a team of exceptional individuals and overcoming all odds...

Modifié par Arturia Pendragon, 27 juillet 2012 - 12:46 .

[De1ta G]

[quote]LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

[quote]ZLurps wrote...

I'm going to have to link for proof, and here I though forumites knew the lore. http://masseffect.wi...dex/The_Reapers <- Read this. ALL OF THIS. The reapers can't survive concentrated dreadnought fire. "4 is certain destruction." They only produce one capship a cycle "Experts believe the Reapers harvest a single species..." The rest are made into destroyers. "Research suggests destroyers are created from species that are not harvested to make capital ships." I'm sorry, but the lore clearly states that the reapers cannot outnumber the organics with capital ships. It just doesn't happen. I already did the math.[/quote]


As of 2185, the dreadnought count was 39 turian, 20 asari, 16 salarian, and 8 human. By 2186, humans construct a ninth dreadnought, and the volus have built a single dreadnought of their own.

masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Dreadnought#Dreadnoughts


So excluding Quarian and Geth, the galactic raced had 85 dreanoughts.

Then Alliance lost several when Reapers attacked Earth, I don't know numbers of Turian losses.

You did the math?



[/quote]

Yes, considering that all dreadnoughts are not equal. The Volus is all-thanix. The DA is big mclargehuge. Quarian ones, which I am baffled at you not including, are also more powerful than a standard dreadnought. Even the salarians have applied stealth and thanix to their dreadnoughts, so 100 is more than fair here. And for the guys arguing about concentration, that's what the thousands of other ships are for. Ablative armor and confusion. To finish the arguments off, indoctrination only works in close proximity. And slowly.

[/quote]



Wait, what am I missing? The organics have 100 dreadnoughts. There are at leasts thousands of reaper capital ships that are worth 4 or 3 organic dreadnoughts. I don't see how organics have a chance in that situation.

Modifié par De1ta G, 27 juillet 2012 - 12:48 .

[LieutenantSarcasm]

De1ta G wrote...

Wait, what am I missing? The organics have 100 dreadnoughts. There are at leasts thousands of reaper capital ships that are worth 4 or 3 organic dreadnoughts. I don't see how organics have a chance in that situation.

You know what, I give up trying to convince you guys. You clearly aren't even bothering to read my arguments any  more. I explained how they'd live, with smaller ships as a screen. But clearly, you bought into the railroading, and I'm done for now.

[De1ta G]

LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

De1ta G wrote...

Wait, what am I missing? The organics have 100 dreadnoughts. There are at leasts thousands of reaper capital ships that are worth 4 or 3 organic dreadnoughts. I don't see how organics have a chance in that situation.

You know what, I give up trying to convince you guys. You clearly aren't even bothering to read my arguments any  more. I explained how they'd live, with smaller ships as a screen. But clearly, you bought into the railroading, and I'm done for now.

Dude, you can't convince us because it isn't possible. You can't beat a threat like the reapers conventionally.

[silentassassin264]

Arturia Pendragon wrote...

ME3 was written in a way that made conventional victory impossible. Had it been possible, it would have been written differently. Using evidence from ME3 as explanation for the impossibility of conventional victory is flawed. The only way you can show that conventional victory is impossible is by using evidence from ME1 and/or ME2.

Example:
Conventional victory person: Why isn't this shirt blue?
IMPOSSIBLE YO person: Because it's red.
Conventional victory person: Well why couldn't it have been blue?
IMPOSSIBLE YO person: Because it's red.
Conventional victory person: How does its current state prevent it from being blue in the first place?
IMPOSSIBLE YO person: Because it's red.
Conventional victory person:

Nothing about ME1 or ME2 makes conventional victory impossible. Improbable, maybe, but not impossible. It's a good thing Shepard's story hasn't been about gathering a team of exceptional individuals and overcoming all odds...

Guess what?  The shirt is red.  No matter how much you try and tell yourself it is blue, it isn't and it isn't going to be blue.  The devs did not intend on making the Reapers able to be beaten conventionally.  If the taunts of we will darken the sky on every world were not enough of a warning, they spelled it out for you in ME3.  Could they have made Shepard a Batarian?  Could they have made your cybernetics Reaper tech so you could do like TIM on the Citadel through ME2 and ME3?  Could they have given Shepard the ability to rebuild the Derelict Reaper sans indoctrination and storm the collector base and later use it in tentacle-to-tentacle combat with Harbinger?  They could have done all those things but they didn't and it isn't Mass Effect.  Whining about could have beens does not change anything. 

[RyanSoup]

shannonrw wrote...

 I'm getting really irritated at seeing everyone complaining that we couldn't win by conventional methods, and that we should've been able to win that way, etc.

Okay...listen. The reapers have been doing this for millions of years with hundreds or thousands of civilizations. If no other civilization has been able to do it that way, well why the hell would we be able to? What makes US so special?

That's a total fallacy
Every other galactic civilization had been pouring resources into the crucible.

[ZLurps]

LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

I'm going to have to link for proof, and here I though forumites knew the lore. http://masseffect.wi...dex/The_Reapers <- Read this. ALL OF THIS. The reapers can't survive concentrated dreadnought fire. "4 is certain destruction." They only produce one capship a cycle "Experts believe the Reapers harvest a single species..." The rest are made into destroyers. "Research suggests destroyers are created from species that are not harvested to make capital ships." I'm sorry, but the lore clearly states that the reapers cannot outnumber the organics with capital ships. It just doesn't happen. I already did the math.

As of 2185, the dreadnought count was 39 turian, 20 asari, 16 salarian, and 8 human. By 2186, humans construct a ninth dreadnought, and the volus have built a single dreadnought of their own.

masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Dreadnought#Dreadnoughts

So excluding Quarian and Geth, the galactic raced had 85 dreanoughts.

Then Alliance lost several when Reapers attacked Earth, I don't know numbers of Turian losses.

You did the math?

Yes, considering that all dreadnoughts are not equal. The Volus is all-thanix. The DA is big mclargehuge. Quarian ones, which I am baffled at you not including, are also more powerful than a standard dreadnought. Even the salarians have applied stealth and thanix to their dreadnoughts, so 100 is more than fair here. And for the guys arguing about concentration, that's what the thousands of other ships are for. Ablative armor and confusion. To finish the arguments off, indoctrination only works in close proximity. And slowly.

First, Galactic races version of Thanix cannon isn't as powerful as Reaper version where it originates because it's powered by mass effect core. Reaper ship has larger mass effect cores. So your comparison doesn't work.

Then, ablative armour don't do anything against Reapers, because Alliance ships that Sovereign one shotted likely had one. It's the standard armour.

There is however bigger problem here.

One billion divided by fiftythousand is 20.000. Even if Reapers lost dreadnoughts in previous cycles, even is some cycles they weren't able to harvest species to capital ship, let's be generous, say they mostly failed you still have your about 100 Dreadnoughts facing 5.000 Reaper Dreadnoughts AND their destroyers.

Modifié par ZLurps, 27 juillet 2012 - 12:58 .

[De1ta G]

And even though I'm fine with conventional victory not being possible, I do not agree with the way they made victory possible. A super weapon can be a good concept if done right.

[Arturia Pendragon]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Guess what?  The shirt is red.  No matter how much you try and tell yourself it is blue, it isn't and it isn't going to be blue.  The devs did not intend on making the Reapers able to be beaten conventionally.  If the taunts of we will darken the sky on every world were not enough of a warning, they spelled it out for you in ME3.  Could they have made Shepard a Batarian?  Could they have made your cybernetics Reaper tech so you could do like TIM on the Citadel through ME2 and ME3?  Could they have given Shepard the ability to rebuild the Derelict Reaper sans indoctrination and storm the collector base and later use it in tentacle-to-tentacle combat with Harbinger?  They could have done all those things but they didn't and it isn't Mass Effect.  Whining about could have beens does not change anything. 

I'm not whining about anything, I'm just trying to explain the situation. ME3 was shoehorned into a "Click OK to Terminate" situation. It didn't have to be, which is what the conventional victory people are trying to argue. Meanwhile the IMPOSSIBLE YO people are using ME3 as the reason conventional victory is impossible, which is absurd given that ME3's storyline makes it impossible from the get-go.

Yes, it's impossible, but only because Mac Walters decided to make it so.

[Tritium315]

shannonrw wrote...

 I'm getting really irritated at seeing everyone complaining that we couldn't win by conventional methods, and that we should've been able to win that way, etc.

Okay...listen. The reapers have been doing this for millions of years with hundreds or thousands of civilizations. If no other civilization has been able to do it that way, well why the hell would we be able to? What makes US so special?

A lone space marine and her Band of Bros isn't supposed to be able to kill thousands of uber powered cyborg monstrosities conventionally either, but she can. Funny how that works.

What makes our civilization so special is the same thing that makes Shepard so special. Our story takes place in a video game where anything is possible provided the player is good enough (or the difficulty is set low enough, ****).

Modifié par Tritium315, 27 juillet 2012 - 01:00 .

[MacNasty]

[quote]De1ta G wrote...

[quote]LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

[quote]ZLurps wrote...

I'm going to have to link for proof, and here I though forumites knew the lore. http://masseffect.wi...dex/The_Reapers <- Read this. ALL OF THIS. The reapers can't survive concentrated dreadnought fire. "4 is certain destruction." They only produce one capship a cycle "Experts believe the Reapers harvest a single species..." The rest are made into destroyers. "Research suggests destroyers are created from species that are not harvested to make capital ships." I'm sorry, but the lore clearly states that the reapers cannot outnumber the organics with capital ships. It just doesn't happen. I already did the math.[/quote]


As of 2185, the dreadnought count was 39 turian, 20 asari, 16 salarian, and 8 human. By 2186, humans construct a ninth dreadnought, and the volus have built a single dreadnought of their own.

masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Dreadnought#Dreadnoughts


So excluding Quarian and Geth, the galactic raced had 85 dreanoughts.

Then Alliance lost several when Reapers attacked Earth, I don't know numbers of Turian losses.

You did the math?



[/quote]

Yes, considering that all dreadnoughts are not equal. The Volus is all-thanix. The DA is big mclargehuge. Quarian ones, which I am baffled at you not including, are also more powerful than a standard dreadnought. Even the salarians have applied stealth and thanix to their dreadnoughts, so 100 is more than fair here. And for the guys arguing about concentration, that's what the thousands of other ships are for. Ablative armor and confusion. To finish the arguments off, indoctrination only works in close proximity. And slowly.

[/quote]



Wait, what am I missing? The organics have 100 dreadnoughts. There are at leasts thousands of reaper capital ships that are worth 4 or 3 organic dreadnoughts. I don't see how organics have a chance in that situation.

[/quote]


A couple of things I would like to add. You are also not including the Geth dreadnoughts, which as not being bound by the treaty of Farixen, they created many dreadnoughts of quite incredible strength, more so than Allaince dreadnoughts. Plus, you're forgetting things along the lines of tactics. I'm not suggesting an all out single battle, because that would be foolish, but what I don't get is why they don't use a tactic they used before. It wouldn't work forever, but they could do a good job of taking out Reaper ships. It is said in Mass Effect that our dreadnoughts turn faster than their capital ships, so if they  go in behind them, they can take out the reaper ship before it can fire at them. By doing this, and making sure you only go for one capital ship at a time, you can take out multiple ships. On the mission where you go to the Turian homeworld, you know how you can see those reapers? Well if you sent 4 at each of those, it seems a possibility to take them out ebfore they could fire, allowing you to eliminate 2 or 3 capital ships from that fight, wihtout the loss of any dreadnoughts, as it was stated 4 can take out one capital ship.

Also, there was a thread awhile back that showed a different way of beating the Reapers without having to use the crucible. It had to do with flying ships directly into reapers, with something along the lines of some terrorists doing something like that into a place and them making a huge explosion. I know it's not much, but I figured I would add that. I'll see if I can find it after.

[SMichelle]

shannonrw wrote...

 I'm getting really irritated at seeing everyone complaining that we couldn't win by conventional methods, and that we should've been able to win that way, etc.

Okay...listen. The reapers have been doing this for millions of years with hundreds or thousands of civilizations. If no other civilization has been able to do it that way, well why the hell would we be able to? What makes US so special?

Hello!  Those other cylcles didn't have THE SHEPARD! 

Duh!


Seriously.  I agree completely.  Conventional victory isn't possible because the only thing separating our cycle from countless other cycles is we completed the Crucible.  That's it.

However, you will find that many people want the "Hollywood"  defeating impossible-odds victory, instead of the sad fact that sorry;  our cycle is not special.

[De1ta G]

[/quote]


A couple of things I would like to add. You are also not including the Geth dreadnoughts, which as not being bound by the treaty of Farixen, they created many dreadnoughts of quite incredible strength, more so than Allaince dreadnoughts. Plus, you're forgetting things along the lines of tactics. I'm not suggesting an all out single battle, because that would be foolish, but what I don't get is why they don't use a tactic they used before. It wouldn't work forever, but they could do a good job of taking out Reaper ships. It is said in Mass Effect that our dreadnoughts turn faster than their capital ships, so if they  go in behind them, they can take out the reaper ship before it can fire at them. By doing this, and making sure you only go for one capital ship at a time, you can take out multiple ships. On the mission where you go to the Turian homeworld, you know how you can see those reapers? Well if you sent 4 at each of those, it seems a possibility to take them out ebfore they could fire, allowing you to eliminate 2 or 3 capital ships from that fight, wihtout the loss of any dreadnoughts, as it was stated 4 can take out one capital ship.

Also, there was a thread awhile back that showed a different way of beating the Reapers without having to use the crucible. It had to do with flying ships directly into reapers, with something along the lines of some terrorists doing something like that into a place and them making a huge explosion. I know it's not much, but I figured I would add that. I'll see if I can find it after.
[/quote]

So there is more than just that one geth dreadnought that is blown up. I didn't read much codex on the geth in ME 3 so I didn't know.

As seen with in Mass Effect. Sovereign charges right into a Turian ship and it's destroyed but Sovereign isn't scratched. I don't see how crashing into reapers could work at all.

EDIT: And why did quoting decide to not work for me anymore?

Modifié par De1ta G, 27 juillet 2012 - 01:09 .

[silentassassin264]

Arturia Pendragon wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

Guess what?  The shirt is red.  No matter how much you try and tell yourself it is blue, it isn't and it isn't going to be blue.  The devs did not intend on making the Reapers able to be beaten conventionally.  If the taunts of we will darken the sky on every world were not enough of a warning, they spelled it out for you in ME3.  Could they have made Shepard a Batarian?  Could they have made your cybernetics Reaper tech so you could do like TIM on the Citadel through ME2 and ME3?  Could they have given Shepard the ability to rebuild the Derelict Reaper sans indoctrination and storm the collector base and later use it in tentacle-to-tentacle combat with Harbinger?  They could have done all those things but they didn't and it isn't Mass Effect.  Whining about could have beens does not change anything. 

I'm not whining about anything, I'm just trying to explain the situation. ME3 was shoehorned into a "Click OK to Terminate" situation. It didn't have to be, which is what the conventional victory people are trying to argue. Meanwhile the IMPOSSIBLE YO people are using ME3 as the reason conventional victory is impossible, which is absurd given that ME3's storyline makes it impossible from the get-go.

Yes, it's impossible, but only because Mac Walters decided to make it so.

I am pretty sure it was never intended for it be possible.  You can blame Mac Walters for a whole bunch of stuff but that is not one of them.  At the end of ME1, Sovereign destroys things like it is a casual annoyance and only goes down because of a freak accident with puppet Saren.  The implication is that with Sovereigns buddies come, you are going to be fighting a bunch of invincible (No Saren puppet to drain shields) gigantic death dealing ships.  Mass Effect 2 gives you the Thanix to say "Yay, now they aren't completely invincible, just almost invincible".  Thanix according to the codex have to be used in close range and Reapers can kill you before you get into that range so it does give you a shot but you are likely going to take huge losses to get one Thanix shot off.  Your chances to win are still practically nil.  

If you thought you could win conventionally from ME1 or ME2, it is because you got too into that paragon roleplaying and felt that you could do anything even if the odds were all against you.  Sometimes when the odds are completely against you, you kind of die. 

Modifié par silentassassin264, 27 juillet 2012 - 01:09 .

[ZLurps]

[quote]MacNasty wrote...

[quote]De1ta G wrote...

[quote]LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

[quote]ZLurps wrote...

I'm going to have to link for proof, and here I though forumites knew the lore. http://masseffect.wi...dex/The_Reapers <- Read this. ALL OF THIS. The reapers can't survive concentrated dreadnought fire. "4 is certain destruction." They only produce one capship a cycle "Experts believe the Reapers harvest a single species..." The rest are made into destroyers. "Research suggests destroyers are created from species that are not harvested to make capital ships." I'm sorry, but the lore clearly states that the reapers cannot outnumber the organics with capital ships. It just doesn't happen. I already did the math.[/quote]


As of 2185, the dreadnought count was 39 turian, 20 asari, 16 salarian, and 8 human. By 2186, humans construct a ninth dreadnought, and the volus have built a single dreadnought of their own.

masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Dreadnought#Dreadnoughts


So excluding Quarian and Geth, the galactic raced had 85 dreanoughts.

Then Alliance lost several when Reapers attacked Earth, I don't know numbers of Turian losses.

You did the math?



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Yes, considering that all dreadnoughts are not equal. The Volus is all-thanix. The DA is big mclargehuge. Quarian ones, which I am baffled at you not including, are also more powerful than a standard dreadnought. Even the salarians have applied stealth and thanix to their dreadnoughts, so 100 is more than fair here. And for the guys arguing about concentration, that's what the thousands of other ships are for. Ablative armor and confusion. To finish the arguments off, indoctrination only works in close proximity. And slowly.

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Wait, what am I missing? The organics have 100 dreadnoughts. There are at leasts thousands of reaper capital ships that are worth 4 or 3 organic dreadnoughts. I don't see how organics have a chance in that situation.

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A couple of things I would like to add. You are also not including the Geth dreadnoughts, which as not being bound by the treaty of Farixen, they created many dreadnoughts of quite incredible strength, more so than Allaince dreadnoughts. Plus, you're forgetting things along the lines of tactics. I'm not suggesting an all out single battle, because that would be foolish, but what I don't get is why they don't use a tactic they used before. It wouldn't work forever, but they could do a good job of taking out Reaper ships. It is said in Mass Effect that our dreadnoughts turn faster than their capital ships, so if they  go in behind them, they can take out the reaper ship before it can fire at them. By doing this, and making sure you only go for one capital ship at a time, you can take out multiple ships. On the mission where you go to the Turian homeworld, you know how you can see those reapers? Well if you sent 4 at each of those, it seems a possibility to take them out ebfore they could fire, allowing you to eliminate 2 or 3 capital ships from that fight, wihtout the loss of any dreadnoughts, as it was stated 4 can take out one capital ship.

Also, there was a thread awhile back that showed a different way of beating the Reapers without having to use the crucible. It had to do with flying ships directly into reapers, with something along the lines of some terrorists doing something like that into a place and them making a huge explosion. I know it's not much, but I figured I would add that. I'll see if I can find it after.
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Tactical part is difficult, Reaper outnumber everything galactic fleets have if you take destroyers account. I thought about swarming them with fighters, get close and then slow down so they could slip under their kinetic barriers, but then we see Reapers have their Oculi fighters to counter that. And that they do the same for as (as in ME2) bounds our own fighters, frigaters and such vessels for defence.

Tactical part is difficult also because Reaper's don't need supply lines as they don't need crew at all to operate.

It's like trying to win a game of chess with one queen and 3 pawns when your opponent have all the pawns, and queen in every square in their behind pawns. You may victory here and there if your oppent is arrogant, but that's about it.

Modifié par ZLurps, 27 juillet 2012 - 01:18 .

[Jamie9]

By the way, to the people using "we lost only 8 cruisers against Sovereign" as evidence. That was only the human casualties. The Citadel forces lost a lot more.