173 réponses à ce sujet

[Arturia Pendragon]

silentassassin264 wrote...

I am pretty sure it was never intended for it be possible.  You can blame Mac Walters for a whole bunch of stuff but that is not one of them.  At the end of ME1, Sovereign destroys things like it is a casual annoyance and only goes down because of a freak accident with puppet Saren.  The implication is that with Sovereigns buddies come, you are going to be fighting a bunch of invincible (No Saren puppet to drain shields) gigantic death dealing ships.  Mass Effect 2 gives you the Thanix to say "Yay, now they aren't completely invincible, just almost invincible".  Thanix according to the codex have to be used in close range and Reapers can kill you before you get into that range so it does give you a shot but you are likely going to take huge losses to get one Thanix shot off.  Your chances to win are still practically nil.  

If you thought you could win conventionally from ME1 or ME2, it is because you got too into that paragon roleplaying and felt that you could do anything even if the odds were all against you.  Sometimes when the odds are completely against you, you kind of die. 

In reality, sure. In fictional escapism, no. Mass Effect is a hero's journey, not a tragedy. As for the Thanix Magnetic-Hydrodynamic Weapon....

From the ME2 codex:

Following the Battle of the Citadel, human and turian volunteers conducted a massive three-month survey effort to clear the station's orbit of debris. Secretly, the turian Office of Technological Reconnaissance "volunteers" were technology recovery specialists salvaging the main weapon of the geth flagship Sovereign, and large amounts of its valuable element zero core.

Contrary to popular belief, Sovereign's main gun was not a directed energy weapon. Rather, its massive element zero core powered an electromagnetic field suspending a liquid iron-uranium-tungsten alloy that shaped into armor-piercing projectiles when fired. The jet of molten metal, accelerated to a fraction of the speed of light, destroys targets by impact force and irresistible heat.

Only 11 months after the battle, the turians produced the Thanix, their own miniaturized version of Sovereign's gun. The Thanix can fire reliably every five seconds, rivaling a cruiser's firepower but mountable on a fighter or frigate.

From the ME3 codex:

After the Battle of the Citadel, human and turian volunteers spent three months clearing the station's orbit of debris. During the cleanup, the turians secretly salvaged Sovereign's powerful main gun along with much of the weapon's element zero core. Eleven months later, the turians introduced the Thanix, a scaled-down version of the weapon.

The Thanix's core is a liquid alloy of iron, uranium, and tungsten suspended in an electromagnetic field powered by element zero. The molten metal, accelerated to a significant fraction of the speed of light, solidifies into a projectile as it is fired, hitting targets with enough force to pierce any known shield or armor. The gun can fire
reliably every five seconds.

The weapon's relatively small size allows it to be mounted on most fighters or frigates. It is now widely used by the Alliance military and is the primary weapon on the refurbished Normandy SR-2.

I'm having issues locating this supposed short-range requirement.

Modifié par Arturia Pendragon, 27 juillet 2012 - 01:16 .

[De1ta G]

Jamie9 wrote...

By the way, to the people using "we lost only 8 cruisers against Sovereign" as evidence. That was only the human casualties. The Citadel forces lost a lot more.

Yeah, pretty much all the Turians ships were destroyed. Granted there were Geth ships shooting at them too. Also, Sovereign killed 8 cruisers while also taking over the Citadel. I'm sure it would have killed more if it was focused on it.

[ZLurps]

A couple of things I would like to add. You are also not including the Geth dreadnoughts, which as not being bound by the treaty of Farixen, they created many dreadnoughts of quite incredible strength, more so than Allaince dreadnoughts. Plus, you're forgetting things along the lines of tactics. I'm not suggesting an all out single battle, because that would be foolish, but what I don't get is why they don't use a tactic they used before. It wouldn't work forever, but they could do a good job of taking out Reaper ships. It is said in Mass Effect that our dreadnoughts turn faster than their capital ships, so if they  go in behind them, they can take out the reaper ship before it can fire at them. By doing this, and making sure you only go for one capital ship at a time, you can take out multiple ships. On the mission where you go to the Turian homeworld, you know how you can see those reapers? Well if you sent 4 at each of those, it seems a possibility to take them out ebfore they could fire, allowing you to eliminate 2 or 3 capital ships from that fight, wihtout the loss of any dreadnoughts, as it was stated 4 can take out one capital ship.

Also, there was a thread awhile back that showed a different way of beating the Reapers without having to use the crucible. It had to do with flying ships directly into reapers, with something along the lines of some terrorists doing something like that into a place and them making a huge explosion. I know it's not much, but I figured I would add that. I'll see if I can find it after.

De1ta G wrote...
As seen with in Mass Effect. Sovereign charges right into a Turian ship and it's destroyed but Sovereign isn't scratched. I don't see how crashing into reapers could work at all.

EDIT: And why did quoting decide to not work for me anymore?

Quotes seem to bug me as well, board glitch?

Ramming to ships theory is based on lore inconsistency that was introduced in some codex entry regarding Turians IIRC. I don't count much to it, as it's really oversight of person who wrote the entry and because we see ingame, Sovereign scene you mention, how well it would work on sub-FTL speeds.

Modifié par ZLurps, 27 juillet 2012 - 01:22 .

[Arturia Pendragon]

De1ta G wrote...

Jamie9 wrote...

By the way, to the people using "we lost only 8 cruisers against Sovereign" as evidence. That was only the human casualties. The Citadel forces lost a lot more.

Yeah, pretty much all the Turians ships were destroyed. Granted there were Geth ships shooting at them too. Also, Sovereign killed 8 cruisers while also taking over the Citadel. I'm sure it would have killed more if it was focused on it.

It was all Geth ships. Sovereign didn't start fighting until he was positioned over the Citadel Tower and the arms were reopened. Everything conned grey to him, in MMO terms; he just ignored the fight.

Modifié par Arturia Pendragon, 27 juillet 2012 - 01:20 .

[DextroDNA]

The fact that ONE REAPER (Sovereign) was able to nearly completely desimate the Citadel fleets, and cripple the Alliance shows that conventional victory is impossible.

You can even see throughout ME3, over the course of a month or two - the Reapers take over HALF THE GALAXY. Their lasers can tear through a dreadnought in SECONDS. Their shields are near-indestructable.

I honestly don't know how you people can believe a conventional victory is possible. The Reapers can cripple the Galaxy in a month, and you believe conventional victory is possible?

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS CONVENTIONAL VICTORY YOU FOOLS.

[ZLurps]

Arturia Pendragon wrote...

De1ta G wrote...

Jamie9 wrote...

By the way, to the people using "we lost only 8 cruisers against Sovereign" as evidence. That was only the human casualties. The Citadel forces lost a lot more.

Yeah, pretty much all the Turians ships were destroyed. Granted there were Geth ships shooting at them too. Also, Sovereign killed 8 cruisers while also taking over the Citadel. I'm sure it would have killed more if it was focused on it.

It was all Geth ships. Sovereign didn't start fighting until he was positioned over the Citadel Tower and the arms were reopened. Everything conned grey to him, in MMO terms; he just ignored the fight.

It rammed one Turian cruiser at least, but that might be it before final battle sequence.

[Memnon]

shannonrw wrote...

LieutenantSarcasm wrote...

Simple, and it was made abundantly clear in ME1. The Reaper's invasion plan hinged on sucker punching everyone at the citadel, and we are the first cycle in history to break that.

Yeah. But you still have to keep in mind that we're still talking about hundreds of thousands of previous civilizations...you don't think that not a SINGLE one of them has come as far as we have? That just doesn't make sense. The citadel thing gave us an advantage, sure, but I'm sure other civilizations have had advantages, too.

Then what is the point of playing the game? What is the point of ME1 and ME2? If we had received the message loud and clear from ME1 was that conventional victory was impossible, then I wouldn't have bothered with the rest of the series ...

[silentassassin264]

Arturia Pendragon wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

I am pretty sure it was never intended for it be possible.  You can blame Mac Walters for a whole bunch of stuff but that is not one of them.  At the end of ME1, Sovereign destroys things like it is a casual annoyance and only goes down because of a freak accident with puppet Saren.  The implication is that with Sovereigns buddies come, you are going to be fighting a bunch of invincible (No Saren puppet to drain shields) gigantic death dealing ships.  Mass Effect 2 gives you the Thanix to say "Yay, now they aren't completely invincible, just almost invincible".  Thanix according to the codex have to be used in close range and Reapers can kill you before you get into that range so it does give you a shot but you are likely going to take huge losses to get one Thanix shot off.  Your chances to win are still practically nil.  

If you thought you could win conventionally from ME1 or ME2, it is because you got too into that paragon roleplaying and felt that you could do anything even if the odds were all against you.  Sometimes when the odds are completely against you, you kind of die. 

In reality, sure. In fictional escapism, no. Mass Effect is a hero's journey, not a tragedy. As for the Thanix Magnetic-Hydrodynamic Weapon....

From the ME2 codex:

Following the Battle of the Citadel, human and turian volunteers conducted a massive three-month survey effort to clear the station's orbit of debris. Secretly, the turian Office of Technological Reconnaissance "volunteers" were technology recovery specialists salvaging the main weapon of the geth flagship Sovereign, and large amounts of its valuable element zero core.

Contrary to popular belief, Sovereign's main gun was not a directed energy weapon. Rather, its massive element zero core powered an electromagnetic field suspending a liquid iron-uranium-tungsten alloy that shaped into armor-piercing projectiles when fired. The jet of molten metal, accelerated to a fraction of the speed of light, destroys targets by impact force and irresistible heat.

Only 11 months after the battle, the turians produced the Thanix, their own miniaturized version of Sovereign's gun. The Thanix can fire reliably every five seconds, rivaling a cruiser's firepower but mountable on a fighter or frigate.

From the ME3 codex:

After the Battle of the Citadel, human and turian volunteers spent three months clearing the station's orbit of debris. During the cleanup, the turians secretly salvaged Sovereign's powerful main gun along with much of the weapon's element zero core. Eleven months later, the turians introduced the Thanix, a scaled-down version of the weapon.

The Thanix's core is a liquid alloy of iron, uranium, and tungsten suspended in an electromagnetic field powered by element zero. The molten metal, accelerated to a significant fraction of the speed of light, solidifies into a projectile as it is fired, hitting targets with enough force to pierce any known shield or armor. The gun can fire
reliably every five seconds.

The weapon's relatively small size allows it to be mounted on most fighters or frigates. It is now widely used by the Alliance military and is the primary weapon on the refurbished Normandy SR-2.

I'm having issues locating this supposed short-range requirement.

http://masseffect.wi...dex/The_Reapers 

Under Reaper Capabilities.

[Arturia Pendragon]

ZLurps wrote...

Arturia Pendragon wrote...

De1ta G wrote...

Jamie9 wrote...

By the way, to the people using "we lost only 8 cruisers against Sovereign" as evidence. That was only the human casualties. The Citadel forces lost a lot more.

Yeah, pretty much all the Turians ships were destroyed. Granted there were Geth ships shooting at them too. Also, Sovereign killed 8 cruisers while also taking over the Citadel. I'm sure it would have killed more if it was focused on it.

It was all Geth ships. Sovereign didn't start fighting until he was positioned over the Citadel Tower and the arms were reopened. Everything conned grey to him, in MMO terms; he just ignored the fight.

It rammed one Turian cruiser at least, but that might be it before final battle sequence.

True, but I can't recall if that cruiser was destroyed by the ramming, or just disabled and probably blown up by the Geth later. Either way, yes, you can credit Sovereign with a single Turian kill.

[Jamie9]

Stornskar wrote...
Then what is the point of playing the game? What is the point of ME1 and ME2? If we had received the message loud and clear from ME1 was that conventional victory was impossible, then I wouldn't have bothered with the rest of the series ...

You only play/read stories if the main character wins? That's... stupid.

[MacNasty]

ZLurps wrote...

A couple of things I would like to add. You are also not including the Geth dreadnoughts, which as not being bound by the treaty of Farixen, they created many dreadnoughts of quite incredible strength, more so than Allaince dreadnoughts. Plus, you're forgetting things along the lines of tactics. I'm not suggesting an all out single battle, because that would be foolish, but what I don't get is why they don't use a tactic they used before. It wouldn't work forever, but they could do a good job of taking out Reaper ships. It is said in Mass Effect that our dreadnoughts turn faster than their capital ships, so if they  go in behind them, they can take out the reaper ship before it can fire at them. By doing this, and making sure you only go for one capital ship at a time, you can take out multiple ships. On the mission where you go to the Turian homeworld, you know how you can see those reapers? Well if you sent 4 at each of those, it seems a possibility to take them out ebfore they could fire, allowing you to eliminate 2 or 3 capital ships from that fight, wihtout the loss of any dreadnoughts, as it was stated 4 can take out one capital ship.

Also, there was a thread awhile back that showed a different way of beating the Reapers without having to use the crucible. It had to do with flying ships directly into reapers, with something along the lines of some terrorists doing something like that into a place and them making a huge explosion. I know it's not much, but I figured I would add that. I'll see if I can find it after.

De1ta G wrote...
As seen with in Mass Effect. Sovereign charges right into a Turian ship and it's destroyed but Sovereign isn't scratched. I don't see how crashing into reapers could work at all.

EDIT: And why did quoting decide to not work for me anymore?

Quotes seem to bug me as well, board glitch?

Ramming to ships theory is based on lore inconsistency that was introduced in some codex entry regarding Turians IIRC. I don't count much to it, as it's really oversight of person who wrote the entry and because we see ingame, Sovereign scene you mention, how well it would work on sub-FTL speeds.

Stupid me, forgot to add the important word. Ram ships into reaper's at FTL speeds. I know that changes it a lot, stupid me. I don't know about an inconsistency, I've not looked too deeply into it, but that article had a lot of info in it, but then again you may be right. Chances of me finding it are slim. They really need a search function 

[Arturia Pendragon]

silentassassin264 wrote...

http://masseffect.wi...dex/The_Reapers 

Under Reaper Capabilities.

The difficulty is getting close enough to use them -- the surface-mounted weaponry on Reaper ships, similar in principle to GARDIAN, presents an effective defense against organic species' fighters.

It specifically mentions fighters as not being able to get close, not larger vessels. It also doesn't clarify which systems are short range. We know for a fact Javelin missiles have issues hitting Reapers and the Guardian system is purely defensive, so it could simply be referring to those. Guess we'll just have to wait for Twitter-canon clarification.

Modifié par Arturia Pendragon, 27 juillet 2012 - 01:31 .

[Tritium315]

SMichelle wrote...

shannonrw wrote...

 I'm getting really irritated at seeing everyone complaining that we couldn't win by conventional methods, and that we should've been able to win that way, etc.

Okay...listen. The reapers have been doing this for millions of years with hundreds or thousands of civilizations. If no other civilization has been able to do it that way, well why the hell would we be able to? What makes US so special?

Hello!  Those other cylcles didn't have THE SHEPARD! 

Duh!


Seriously.  I agree completely.  Conventional victory isn't possible because the only thing separating our cycle from countless other cycles is we completed the Crucible.  That's it.

However, you will find that many people want the "Hollywood"  defeating impossible-odds victory, instead of the sad fact that sorry;  our cycle is not special.

If this wasn't Hollywood Shep woulda died on Eden Prime. Reality is defeating the impossible is kinda the whole point of the series: nearly every single mission involves Shep and Co. against insurmountable odds with them coming out on top.

Hell, the mission that everyone says is a SUICIDE mission ends with... nobody dead, not even a token sacrifice for forced drama. If that's not Hollywood I don't know what is.

Modifié par Tritium315, 27 juillet 2012 - 01:31 .

[silentassassin264]

Arturia Pendragon wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

http://masseffect.wi...dex/The_Reapers 

Under Reaper Capabilities.

The difficulty is getting close enough to use them -- the surface-mounted weaponry on Reaper ships, similar in principle to GARDIAN, presents an effective defense against organic species' fighters.

It specifically mentions fighters as not being able to get close, not larger vessels.

"
The main gun on a Reaper capital ship dwarfs that of the Alliance's Everest-class dreadnoughts. No dreadnought has yet survived a direct hit from the weapon. Estimates put its destructive power anywhere from 132 to 454 kilotons of TNT. Even if the target is hardened, as in the case of a surface-based missile silo, the gun can instead bury the target beneath molten metal. Precise targeting computers and correctors also give the Reaper weapons a longer effective range than organics' dreadnoughts or cruisers. "

[De1ta G]

[/quote]

Then what is the point of playing the game? What is the point of ME1 and ME2? If we had received the message loud and clear from ME1 was that conventional victory was impossible, then I wouldn't have bothered with the rest of the series ...

[/quote]

You actually expected to be able to defeat the reapers conventionally? I didn't. I did think it was pretty clear from the start. If not the start, then after ME 2 at least. I expected before hand that we'd have to unite the galaxy, and I expected before hand that we would need a super weapon to destroy the reapers.

[Memnon]

Jamie9 wrote...

Stornskar wrote...
Then what is the point of playing the game? What is the point of ME1 and ME2? If we had received the message loud and clear from ME1 was that conventional victory was impossible, then I wouldn't have bothered with the rest of the series ...

You only play/read stories if the main character wins? That's... stupid.

Who are you to tell me - or anyone else - what kinds of games to play? Is there some kind of merit to being a part of a hopeless, futile endeavor? 

[ZLurps]

MacNasty wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

A couple of things I would like to add. You are also not including the Geth dreadnoughts, which as not being bound by the treaty of Farixen, they created many dreadnoughts of quite incredible strength, more so than Allaince dreadnoughts. Plus, you're forgetting things along the lines of tactics. I'm not suggesting an all out single battle, because that would be foolish, but what I don't get is why they don't use a tactic they used before. It wouldn't work forever, but they could do a good job of taking out Reaper ships. It is said in Mass Effect that our dreadnoughts turn faster than their capital ships, so if they  go in behind them, they can take out the reaper ship before it can fire at them. By doing this, and making sure you only go for one capital ship at a time, you can take out multiple ships. On the mission where you go to the Turian homeworld, you know how you can see those reapers? Well if you sent 4 at each of those, it seems a possibility to take them out ebfore they could fire, allowing you to eliminate 2 or 3 capital ships from that fight, wihtout the loss of any dreadnoughts, as it was stated 4 can take out one capital ship.

Also, there was a thread awhile back that showed a different way of beating the Reapers without having to use the crucible. It had to do with flying ships directly into reapers, with something along the lines of some terrorists doing something like that into a place and them making a huge explosion. I know it's not much, but I figured I would add that. I'll see if I can find it after.

De1ta G wrote...
As seen with in Mass Effect. Sovereign charges right into a Turian ship and it's destroyed but Sovereign isn't scratched. I don't see how crashing into reapers could work at all.

EDIT: And why did quoting decide to not work for me anymore?

Quotes seem to bug me as well, board glitch?

Ramming to ships theory is based on lore inconsistency that was introduced in some codex entry regarding Turians IIRC. I don't count much to it, as it's really oversight of person who wrote the entry and because we see ingame, Sovereign scene you mention, how well it would work on sub-FTL speeds.

Stupid me, forgot to add the important word. Ram ships into reaper's at FTL speeds. I know that changes it a lot, stupid me. I don't know about an inconsistency, I've not looked too deeply into it, but that article had a lot of info in it, but then again you may be right. Chances of me finding it are slim. They really need a search function 

Well, mass effect FTL works by reducing mass to reach FTL right? So you hit something with zero mass?

IIRC the story was about Turian ramming his ship to contruct on planet. So FTL on athmosphere, even there isn't mass, there is drag, it's... there isn't FTL in athmosphere and there isn't FTL combat.

You may want however try searching for it though, I may have forgotten something.

[Arturia Pendragon]

silentassassin264 wrote...

Arturia Pendragon wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

http://masseffect.wi...dex/The_Reapers 

Under Reaper Capabilities.

The difficulty is getting close enough to use them -- the surface-mounted weaponry on Reaper ships, similar in principle to GARDIAN, presents an effective defense against organic species' fighters.

It specifically mentions fighters as not being able to get close, not larger vessels.

"
The main gun on a Reaper capital ship dwarfs that of the Alliance's Everest-class dreadnoughts. No dreadnought has yet survived a direct hit from the weapon. Estimates put its destructive power anywhere from 132 to 454 kilotons of TNT. Even if the target is hardened, as in the case of a surface-based missile silo, the gun can instead bury the target beneath molten metal. Precise targeting computers and correctors also give the Reaper weapons a longer effective range than organics' dreadnoughts or cruisers. "

Okay, but Reaper weapons are dodgable and do not one-hit-kill larger vessels that would be armed with Thanix systems (unless it's a direct hit, which would basically be never unless the captain is a complete idiot). There's also no specific numerical value of their superior range. Are they 10% better? 2,000%? Again, this is another instance where only Twitter-canon can solve.

Modifié par Arturia Pendragon, 27 juillet 2012 - 01:39 .

[Jamie9]

SwobyJ wrote...
Considering that ME1 and ME2 was formed around that basis, even and especially ME2 (everyone can survive)....

it's not stupid. It's stupid if it was in general, but ME1 and ME2 establishes a precident: You can have the option to win with a minimal amount of suffering, if you so choose. You can also have almost everyone die and just barely continue. However, the choice exists, and is the cornerstone of the roleplaying experience of Commander Shepard.

We use a Conduit and Reaper IFF in ME1 and ME2, but the Crucible and especially Catalyst is so far beyond that.

I'll give you that: ME1 and ME2 did give most choices a "everyone wins" option. Heck, even Rannoch has that in ME3. Virmire is the only example I can really think of that is actually a grey morality choice.

Thank god we have CDProjektRED. They know how to use moral dilemmas.

[Tritium315]

Stornskar wrote...

Jamie9 wrote...

Stornskar wrote...
Then what is the point of playing the game? What is the point of ME1 and ME2? If we had received the message loud and clear from ME1 was that conventional victory was impossible, then I wouldn't have bothered with the rest of the series ...

You only play/read stories if the main character wins? That's... stupid.

Who are you to tell me - or anyone else - what kinds of games to play? Is there some kind of merit to being a part of a hopeless, futile endeavor? 

Bro haven't you heard, happy endings are for squares. If you want to be part of the in crowd you need to be down with artsy and depressing endings. Don't spread the word though, we don't want it to get popular; then it wouldn't be cool anymore.

*pushes black horn rimmed frames up his nose*

[silentassassin264]

Arturia Pendragon wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

Arturia Pendragon wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

http://masseffect.wi...dex/The_Reapers 

Under Reaper Capabilities.

The difficulty is getting close enough to use them -- the surface-mounted weaponry on Reaper ships, similar in principle to GARDIAN, presents an effective defense against organic species' fighters.

It specifically mentions fighters as not being able to get close, not larger vessels.

"
The main gun on a Reaper capital ship dwarfs that of the Alliance's Everest-class dreadnoughts. No dreadnought has yet survived a direct hit from the weapon. Estimates put its destructive power anywhere from 132 to 454 kilotons of TNT. Even if the target is hardened, as in the case of a surface-based missile silo, the gun can instead bury the target beneath molten metal. Precise targeting computers and correctors also give the Reaper weapons a longer effective range than organics' dreadnoughts or cruisers. "

Okay, but Reaper weapons are dodgable and do not one-hit-kill larger vessels that would be armed with Thanix systems. There's also no specific numerical value of their superior range. Are they 10% better? 2,000% Again, this is another instance where only Twitter-canon can solve.

silentassassin264 wrote...

"The main gun on a Reaper capital ship dwarfs that of the Alliance's Everest-class dreadnoughts. No dreadnought has yet survived a direct hit from the weapon. Estimates put its destructive power anywhere from 132 to 454 kilotons of TNT. Even if the target is hardened, as in the case of a surface-based missile silo, the gun can instead bury the target beneath molten metal. Precise targeting computers and correctors also give the Reaper weapons a longer effective range than organics' dreadnoughts or cruisers. "