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[Wayning_Star]

How did the Catalyst defeat it's builders without reapers?

the story says original creators, then catalyst says he harvested them and turned them into the first reapers..but then, wheres the beef?

(if anyone says he used the crucible, I'm gonna go play in traffic..on the internet...)

[Blue Gloves]

Heehee- internet traffic, you my good man... are priceless

No really though- I wondered the same thing for days after my initial playthrough (when I wasn't wandering around in a funk of depression, that is.) I finally rationalized that since the AI was created to facilitate relations between the organics and synthetics it probably had an expansive consciousness and "took over" (ala the body snatching Harby "assuming control") a great number of machines that built the carapace of the original reaper, and then harvested the synthetics the hard and kinda injected them into the shell.

That's just my own theory though, I'd be happy for better minds to improve upon it, or dismiss it entirely in exchange for a better explanation.

[Ticonderoga117]

Didn't he say something about Proto-Reapers and then his creators became the first "true" Reaper?

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

Wait...

Maybe something the Catalyst said went straight over my head, but I was always under the impression that the Reaper creators became the first Reaper willingly, and "They did not approve" meant they didn't like it, but they knew it had to be done.

Did I miss something important?

[Ieldra]

Wayning_Star wrote...
How did the Catalyst defeat it's builders without reapers?

the story says original creators, then catalyst says he harvested them and turned them into the first reapers..but then, wheres the beef?

Yes, I've been asking myself that for some time. It would have been a much subtler process than in the later cycles. I can imagine that it first subjugated a weaker species, then used them like the Collectors to create a Reaper in a remote location. I don't know if indoctrination played a role, that appears to me as belonging more to the Reapers than the Catalyst.  

@SeargeantSnookie:
I read "They did not approve" as "they were Reaperized against their will". Just the way an AI like the Catalyst would say it.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 27 juillet 2012 - 05:55 .

[Ticonderoga117]

SergeantSnookie wrote...

Wait...

Maybe something the Catalyst said went straight over my head, but I was always under the impression that the Reaper creators became the first Reaper willingly, and "They did not approve" meant they didn't like it, but they knew it had to be done.

Did I miss something important?

Yeah... THEY DIDN'T WANT TO BE A REAPER.

"They did not approve" means they went "OH my GOD! I'm being goo-ified and turned into a horrible machine! This was not the idea!"

[dreman9999]

The creators made the reapers first. The catalyst used them against them.

[Ticonderoga117]

dreman9999 wrote...

The creators made the reapers first. The catalyst used them against them.

No. His creators became the first "true" Reaper. His creation.

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

SergeantSnookie wrote...

Wait...

Maybe something the Catalyst said went straight over my head, but I was always under the impression that the Reaper creators became the first Reaper willingly, and "They did not approve" meant they didn't like it, but they knew it had to be done.

Did I miss something important?

Yeah... THEY DIDN'T WANT TO BE A REAPER.

"They did not approve" means they went "OH my GOD! I'm being goo-ified and turned into a horrible machine! This was not the idea!"

Okay then...

[shepdog77]

What I gather is the race that created the Catalyst AI was in the process of trying to find a solution to the Chaos vs Order/Organic vs Synthetic problem, but then the Catalyst decided to go rogue by taking over and turning that species into the first Reaper against their will. He probably used the original reaper tech that that species was in the process of developing. I'll admit it is pretty vague.

Modifié par shepdog77, 27 juillet 2012 - 06:07 .

[PsyrenY]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The creators made the reapers first. The catalyst used them against them.

No. His creators became the first "true" Reaper. His creation.

"My creators gave them form. I gave them function. They in turn give me purpose."

My personal theory is that Starkid's creators designed the first Sovereign-class dreadnoughts. Starkid then hacked and stole them. The final step was to imbue them with their own AI-level of intelligence (still slaves to his will of course); this was done in part by liquefying said creators and pouring them into each one.

[shepdog77]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The creators made the reapers first. The catalyst used them against them.

No. His creators became the first "true" Reaper. His creation.

"My creators gave them form. I gave them function. They in turn give me purpose."

My personal theory is that Starkid's creators designed the first Sovereign-class dreadnoughts. Starkid then hacked and stole them. The final step was to imbue them with their own AI-level of intelligence (still slaves to his will of course); this was done in part by liquefying said creators and pouring them into each one.

Yeah, that's what I was trying to say.  Reapers are half synthetic, half organic.  Starkid's Creators made the Reaper's synthetic parts, then Starkid himself liquified that species to make the organic parts.  

Modifié par shepdog77, 27 juillet 2012 - 06:11 .

[Ticonderoga117]

Optimystic_X wrote...
"My creators gave them form. I gave them function. They in turn give me purpose."

My personal theory is that Starkid's creators designed the first Sovereign-class dreadnoughts. Starkid then hacked and stole them. The final step was to imbue them with their own AI-level of intelligence (still slaves to his will of course); this was done in part by liquefying said creators and pouring them into each one.

Could be more literal since the organic goo is actually used as a building material.

[PsyrenY]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...
"My creators gave them form. I gave them function. They in turn give me purpose."

My personal theory is that Starkid's creators designed the first Sovereign-class dreadnoughts. Starkid then hacked and stole them. The final step was to imbue them with their own AI-level of intelligence (still slaves to his will of course); this was done in part by liquefying said creators and pouring them into each one.

Could be more literal since the organic goo is actually used as a building material.

It's not just used as goop/cement though. The information in those organics makes it into the Reaper too.

Legion: "Billions of organic minds, all uploaded. 'Each a nation.'"
EDI: "...they now bring us the collective knowledge of the cultures that came before."

Of course, it's also possible that the organic component of the Reapers does nothing at all, and the goop is just in there for storage purposes. But either way, we know how Starkid likely turned on his creators - by hacking their own weapons and turning them on them.

[Ticonderoga117]

Optimystic_X wrote...
It's not just used as goop/cement though. The information in those organics makes it into the Reaper too.

Legion: "Billions of organic minds, all uploaded. 'Each a nation.'"
EDI: "...they now bring us the collective knowledge of the cultures that came before."

Of course, it's also possible that the organic component of the Reapers does nothing at all, and the goop is just in there for storage purposes. But either way, we know how Starkid likely turned on his creators - by hacking their own weapons and turning them on them.

True, and very true.

[Wayning_Star]

Hah, I found something on it http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Catalyst, but it seems that the catalyst is actually just feeding off the creatures it's supposed to protect from chaos. The reapers are actually parasites, a kind of mechancico-organic super bug that actually erased or 'ate' their creators. That's the flaw in thier logic,it's what makes organics go crazy trying to understand why they exist at all, serving no actual purpose but to feed crops and then harvest organic and some techno life for resources. All the tripe about pinnicles of evolution is but their sales pitch, part of their transgression. They're an accidental cosmic synthetic alien warfare item, but not made specifically for that purpose, they mutated into present reapers, and took over their original builders. Now they just leave enough scraps around for wanna be technologically advance societies, just to hasten their technology so they can engorge themselves on their..hosts. Now THAT  is a bums rush. Too bad we cannot just destroy them, but they are actually the old creator race,(amongst others) or their mistake.. and are spontanious life forms. So much to do, so little time.

[comrade gando]

I...don't know.

in all srsns tho I actually don't know. it's never explained, just like most everything else lol.

Shepard: Explain synthesis.
Catalyst: shut up and pick a color.

...ok he didn't actually say that but he might as well have.

[jkflipflopDAO]

More than likely he lied to both sides of the war he was built to stop. He used the synths to reaperize the organics, then wiped out the synths once he had some hybridized dreadnaughts under his control. I'm not so sure that the Reapers had indoctrination at the beginning. I think it's a trick they picked up along the way from something like the Thorian.

[Wayning_Star]

comrade gando wrote...

I...don't know.

in all srsns tho I actually don't know. it's never explained, just like most everything else lol.

Shepard: Explain synthesis.
Catalyst: shut up and pick a color.

...ok he didn't actually say that but he might as well have.

well at least someone got around to designing the crucible, that's a bright side to it all, just what it is and exactly what to do with it is the cosmic question of the day...er few millenia. I still hold to a strong belief that there are at least some of the original builders of the catalyst still at large..and waiting for something. Maybe a signal that the reapers are either diminished or defeated(fat chance;) so they can reemerge. How else could the designs for the crucible survive when the reapers/catalyst knew it existed,even almost invoked over the cycles. They have to be helping somehow, or someone/thing like them?.

Thanks for the replies eveyone!!

[Blue Gloves]

shepdog77 wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The creators made the reapers first. The catalyst used them against them.

No. His creators became the first "true" Reaper. His creation.

"My creators gave them form. I gave them function. They in turn give me purpose."

My personal theory is that Starkid's creators designed the first Sovereign-class dreadnoughts. Starkid then hacked and stole them. The final step was to imbue them with their own AI-level of intelligence (still slaves to his will of course); this was done in part by liquefying said creators and pouring them into each one.

Yeah, that's what I was trying to say.  Reapers are half synthetic, half organic.  Starkid's Creators made the Reaper's synthetic parts, then Starkid himself liquified that species to make the organic parts.  

Agree^  that makes the most sense, I think.

[Zan51]

Something just struck me, and it should have done so sooner. Reapers are not even vaguely realistic. I mean, come on, you can get DNA from a TOOTH in forensics, I know, I just finished a college course in it! We can already replicate suspect's DNA for DUI cases in the crime labs! It's called semiconservative replication - " each new cell contains one strand of original DNA and one newly synthesized strand of DNA. The original polynucleotide strand of DNA serves as a template to guide the synthesis of the new complementary polynucleotide of DNA." here - http://www.elmhurst..../582dnarep.html There is absolutely no reason to grind up any species for DNA! Get a sample, replicate it is the modern way to do it even now.

Information in the brain is electrical, sent through neurons, pathways. It is stored in the connections between the neurons. Turning the brains into mush only does one thing - makes it mush that rots fast and smells. You cannot build anything with pink slime, not even a good burger!

This whole concept of slushie people inside reapers is a load of bad pseudo science at worst, sheer imagination at best because that is not the way to store memories - even ME3 tells us that with the Geth!
I could have believed the more logical downloading of the electrical impulses from the minds of those captured for their memories than slushing their brains. And as for a variety of DNA all they had to do was raid a hospital or blood bank for enough DNA material!

And finally, if glow-stick star brat owns the Reapers, well then were we talking to it all along and not Sovereign and Harby? Because it has to be able to communicate with them, right? So it isn';t trapped in the Citadel as we have been believing, right? Since it is a VI program, it can do what the Geth do, move out of the citadel by uploading itself into the Reapers!

Two more, and to me, major, plot holes here. Geeze. Now tell me I'm wrong, please?

[jojon2se]

No brains here, but I'd guess (I see no exposition in the game), as other have suggested, something like this:

• The Creators built the first, fully synthetic, "proto-reapers". They were equipped with AI, so that they could work autonomously, maybe as mining or transport machines.
• The AIs, as per Hollywood SciFi standard form A-1, rebelled, just to keep the theme as presented by the Catalyst consistent.
• After a time of fighting a losing war against their machines, the creators designed the Catalyst, which was to firmy refit the slave collars on the proto-reapers.
• They were desperate and rushed and botched the job somewhat, or were simply too vague in the directives they gave it.It did gain the desired control, though.
• The Catalyst then turned the reshackled Proto-reapers on its creators, in one swift surprise attack, and poured them into the first true Reaper, which was in the shape of a larger proto-reaper, with the AI either completely replaced, or integrated with the organic "nation" - in that case probably as base for the indoctrination device.

[Conniving_Eagle]

With wisdom comes grief. He who increaseth knowledge, increaseth sorrow.

[Xandurpein]

Zan51 wrote...

Something just struck me, and it should have done so sooner. Reapers are not even vaguely realistic. I mean, come on, you can get DNA from a TOOTH in forensics, I know, I just finished a college course in it! We can already replicate suspect's DNA for DUI cases in the crime labs! It's called semiconservative replication - " each new cell contains one strand of original DNA and one newly synthesized strand of DNA. The original polynucleotide strand of DNA serves as a template to guide the synthesis of the new complementary polynucleotide of DNA." here - http://www.elmhurst..../582dnarep.html There is absolutely no reason to grind up any species for DNA! Get a sample, replicate it is the modern way to do it even now.

Information in the brain is electrical, sent through neurons, pathways. It is stored in the connections between the neurons. Turning the brains into mush only does one thing - makes it mush that rots fast and smells. You cannot build anything with pink slime, not even a good burger!

This whole concept of slushie people inside reapers is a load of bad pseudo science at worst, sheer imagination at best because that is not the way to store memories - even ME3 tells us that with the Geth!
I could have believed the more logical downloading of the electrical impulses from the minds of those captured for their memories than slushing their brains. And as for a variety of DNA all they had to do was raid a hospital or blood bank for enough DNA material!

And finally, if glow-stick star brat owns the Reapers, well then were we talking to it all along and not Sovereign and Harby? Because it has to be able to communicate with them, right? So it isn';t trapped in the Citadel as we have been believing, right? Since it is a VI program, it can do what the Geth do, move out of the citadel by uploading itself into the Reapers!

Two more, and to me, major, plot holes here. Geeze. Now tell me I'm wrong, please?

I think that it's pretty obvious that the writing staff of Bioware, while good writers, really don't have enough knowledge about science to create good Science fiction. They have relied on outside expertise to help them with the "techy" parts of the Mass Effect Universe. In ME3 and to some extent ME2 too, they either got pressed for time or maybe even a bit complacent and cut corners with the Sience parts. Because they didn't have enough in-house expertise, they failed to see how much that hurt the story.

That said, I think that the only way the Reaper liquifictation make any kind of sense is if you disregard the biological material and the DNA altogether. The liquification could be just a by-product of a atomic-level diasassembling of the brain and body of a human to create a perfect virtualized copy. At least that's how I headcanon it.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 27 juillet 2012 - 07:51 .