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[Xilizhra]

Tevinter, during the mage rebellion, is intuitively seen to be a probable ally of the mages. After all, Tevinter is mage-dominated, is it not? And wouldn't a further rebellion against the Andrastians be to their advantage?

I propose that they would not see it that way, because to call them mage-dominated misses the point. They aren't; Tevinter is magister-dominated, and they have no problems with enslaving mages weaker than themselves. But more than that, slaveholding nations tend to be leery of uprisings in neighboring countries, and this one could prove more a threat to Tevinter than the Andrastian Chantry. As the Chantry lacks a truly substantial standing army, the only way it could be a threat to Tevinter is if it called together an Exalted March, and the qunari presence among other things makes this seem unlikely. But if it was proven that one set of shackles could be thrown off by free mages, who's to say that it couldn't happen again, this time with much of Tevinter's slave population? So in the interests of realpolitik and probably in just having a stable community of nations behind it in case of another qunari war, I believe Tevinter is more likely to give aid to the templars than the mages, especially since they could probably supply them with a fair bit of lyrium.

As a bonus, it fits nicely into my other theory that the templars will be straight-up villains in DA3, with the main debate being between mages and the Chantry.

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

Tevinter, during the mage rebellion, is intuitively seen to be a probable ally of the mages. After all, Tevinter is mage-dominated, is it not? And wouldn't a further rebellion against the Andrastians be to their advantage?

I propose that they would not see it that way, because to call them mage-dominated misses the point. They aren't; Tevinter is magister-dominated, and they have no problems with enslaving mages weaker than themselves. But more than that, slaveholding nations tend to be leery of uprisings in neighboring countries, and this one could prove more a threat to Tevinter than the Andrastian Chantry. As the Chantry lacks a truly substantial standing army, the only way it could be a threat to Tevinter is if it called together an Exalted March, and the qunari presence among other things makes this seem unlikely. But if it was proven that one set of shackles could be thrown off by free mages, who's to say that it couldn't happen again, this time with much of Tevinter's slave population? So in the interests of realpolitik and probably in just having a stable community of nations behind it in case of another qunari war, I believe Tevinter is more likely to give aid to the templars than the mages, especially since they could probably supply them with a fair bit of lyrium.

It's true that Tevinter enslaves mages and non-mages alike, and the prospect of free mages creating a society after Aldenon the Great's vision for Ferelden - where all men and women are equal - might be seen as a threat by the Magisters currently in power. If mages were able to create a stable society of mages and non-mages, the slaves in the Imperium could try to flee the oppressive regime of Tevinter for a better life down south. Anders' view of the Chantry controlled Circles as a form of slavery matches the historical Aldenon's view as well, and it's likely that the emancipated Circle mages might try to emulate his vision for a mage society rather than the brutal society of the Imperium.

Xilizhra wrote...

As a bonus, it fits nicely into my other theory that the templars will be straight-up villains in DA3, with the main debate being between mages and the Chantry.

I wonder whether the developers will allow for the dichotomy between mages and templars to actually be fleshed out, as two opposing ideologies, or whether they will fall back to the asinine tactics of Dragon Age II and make everyone into a buffoon in a failed attempt to be "dark" and "mature."

Also curious if Dragon Age III would permit the protagonist to help the mages win the war against the templars, or if the plot will railroad the protagonist into restoring the status quo.

[Xilizhra]

Also curious if Dragon Age III would permit the protagonist to help the mages win the war against the templars, or if the plot will railroad the protagonist into restoring the status quo.

I find the second option deeply unlikely, given everything Morrigan said about change coming, and many of Flemeth's lines. The change may not be what we expect, but it'll come.

[EricHVela]

I don't think it is so much as "siding with" as "siding against". They could simply be yet another of a growing number of factions joining the fray for themselves. There can be more than two sides to a war.

(For some reason, my brain is thinking of the Battle of Five Armies from The Hobbit, but eventually, it becomes the massive horde against all of the others in the story.)

EDIT: "war" not "way" spelleeng faelz

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 27 juillet 2012 - 03:04 .

[IanPolaris]

ReggarBlane wrote...

I don't think it is so much as "siding with" as "siding against". They could simply be yet another of a growing number of factions joining the fray for themselves. There can be more than two sides to a war.

(For some reason, my brain is thinking of the Battle of Five Armies from The Hobbit, but eventually, it becomes the massive horde against all of the others in the story.)

EDIT: "war" not "way" spelleeng faelz

Actually I think the situation in Thedas currently resembles the start of the Thirty Years War in Europe.  In the Thirty Years War it was Catholic vs Protestant (rather than Chantry vs Mages) and it was triggered by a Protestant Elector claiming the kIngship of Bohemia giving the Protestants a deciding elector vote for the next Holy Roman Emperor, but many of the same politics are very much there.

While the Thirty Years war may have started over religion, it quickly devolved into a powergrab by the various European powers over Central Europe.  In this role, I could easily see Tevinter Playing the same role for the Templars/Inquisitors-Chantry that Catholic France (under Richelieu) played for Protestant Swedan, i.e. banker and behind the scenes support without actually letting their catspaws actually WIN.

-Polaris

[Treacherous J Slither]

Are mages a threat or a resource to a nation of mages?

Are anti mages a threat or a resource to a nation of mages?

I'd say that the Tevinter would seize this opportunity and try to gather as many mages under them as they can in order to expand their influence and attempt to reclaim the "good old days".

Aiding anti mages because freed mages MIGHT create an opposition force in the future seems...counterproductive.

[Xilizhra]

JSlither wrote...

Are mages a threat or a resource to a nation of mages?

Are anti mages a threat or a resource to a nation of mages?

I'd say that the Tevinter would seize this opportunity and try to gather as many mages under them as they can in order to expand their influence and attempt to reclaim the "good old days".

Aiding anti mages because freed mages MIGHT create an opposition force in the future seems...counterproductive.

Expanding might be attractive, and I'd believe that Tevinter could take a gamble on that if it wasn't for the qunari. They're already at war against an opponent that may not even be trying very hard, and destabilizing the military forces of the people who backed them up the last time the war was hot, in addition to possibly undermining their own ideals of slavery, seem like they'd prove too risky to chance. I'm sure some magisters would prefer the risk anyway, and if the templars are villains, these ones could be erstwhile allies.

[Treacherous J Slither]

The Templars are anti mage. Tevinter will obviously be next on the chopping block if they win the war. Supporting them is foolish. If Tevinter gets enough mages under them they can probably whup the Qunari and take over the world again.

Btw where were the Qunari during the time of the Tevinter Imperium? Did the not exist or did the Imperium simply not stretch that far?

[Gervaise]

Tevinter magisters will not help the rebel mages because for the most part they are peasant upstarts. They do not belong to the noble houses of Tevinter. The only reason they might get actively involved is if their own templars start getting ideas. However, this seems unlikely as previously if templars have objected to the Tevinter system, they simply leave. If mages and templars outside of Tevinter want to tear one another apart, the Magisters will probaly look on with amusment.

Tevinter is more likely to be interested in the outcome of the Orlesian civil war and may well be working behind the scenes to influence this. Remember in DA2 the Orlesians seemed to be doing some sort of deal with the Qunari by giving them back the relic and which the Tevinter agents were trying to prevent, so they would not have been happy with the Empress.

The only mages that Tevinter would welcome with open arms would be anyone who knew the make up of Anders' magical bomb. The Magisters would likely give such a person an immediate seat on the ruling council considering that such a weapon would be very helpful against the Qunari.

[WhiteKnyght]

Considering that Andrastism potrays the Imperium as the devil of the Dragon Age world, the Templars would sooner let the Circle Mages go free than ally with them.

[Xilizhra]

The Templars are anti mage. Tevinter will obviously be next on the chopping block if they win the war. Supporting them is foolish. If Tevinter gets enough mages under them they can probably whup the Qunari and take over the world again.

That's not even remotely the same thing; the Templar Order has existed in the same world as Tevinter for hundreds of years without attacking it, and they'd be idiots to try and take on a rather powerful empire alone after whetting their appetite on rebels at home.

Btw where were the Qunari during the time of the Tevinter Imperium? Did the not exist or did the Imperium simply not stretch that far?

The qunari didn't show up until the Steel Age, so presumably Tevinter never extended beyond Thedas.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

The Templars are anti mage. Tevinter will obviously be next on the chopping block if they win the war. Supporting them is foolish. If Tevinter gets enough mages under them they can probably whup the Qunari and take over the world again.

That's not even remotely the same thing; the Templar Order has existed in the same world as Tevinter for hundreds of years without attacking it, and they'd be idiots to try and take on a rather powerful empire alone after whetting their appetite on rebels at home.

Or fanatics.  And you do know what the phrase "to whet one's appetite" means, don't you?

Modifié par General User, 31 juillet 2012 - 11:59 .

[Xilizhra]

I suspect I do. As for fanatics... well, to be honest, a lot of templars seem to be pragmatically hateful enough to side with the devil they know over the completely new one. In any case, Tevinter could be a reliable lyrium supplier.

[General User]

I thought Orzammar was the nigh unto exclusive source of lyrium.

[Xilizhra]

General User wrote...

I thought Orzammar was the nigh unto exclusive source of lyrium.

If I had to guess, Tevinter gets its lyrium from Kal-Sharok.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

General User wrote...

I thought Orzammar was the nigh unto exclusive source of lyrium.

If I had to guess, Tevinter gets its lyrium from Kal-Sharok.

What I'm getting is at is, if there must be a middleman through whom the Templars get their lyrium, there are plenty of ways for them to do that without making deals with people whom they consider it faridah to stab.

Modifié par General User, 01 août 2012 - 01:00 .

[Xilizhra]

It's arguably possible that I'd just be interested in seeing two of the greater human evils in Thedas team up. Then again, I'd also be interested in getting more depth on the nation in general... surely it can't consist solely of villains? This is why I desperately want DA3 to be set in Tevinter.

[WhiteKnyght]

Xilizhra wrote...

General User wrote...

I thought Orzammar was the nigh unto exclusive source of lyrium.

If I had to guess, Tevinter gets its lyrium from Kal-Sharok.

Who needs lyrium when you have blood magic? Its pretty much fact that every mage there uses blood magic, except for the mage slaves, which are probably the sacrifices.

And there's also the carta and the 100 or so other lyrium smuggling groups.

[Ausstig]

Xilizhra wrote...


As a bonus, it fits nicely into my other theory that the templars will be straight-up villains in DA3, with the main debate being between mages and the Chantry.

If that becomes true  I will not buy the game. 

I want to kill mages dam it not the poeple who protect the common man. 

I hope BLOOD Mages will be the main enemy in DA3, as Darkspawn were in DA:O. I think Tervinter will not impact significatly on the story, maybe villians in a couple of quests but not important. That comes in DA4

[Xilizhra]

Note that odds seem high that the player will be allowed to be a blood mage, and that it's been said that specializations will make more of a difference to the story in this game. I consider it highly unlikely that the player will be forced to go after all blood mages period.

In any case, the templars seem to have abandoned all pretense of protecting anyone in their bloodlust, and may well be seen pillaging the countryside for things to pawn for lyrium money. Or things like that.

[Wulfram]

Not sure Tevinter is in much shape to intervene much, what with the Qunari and all.

[dragonflight288]

Ausstig wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...


As a bonus, it fits nicely into my other theory that the templars will be straight-up villains in DA3, with the main debate being between mages and the Chantry.

If that becomes true  I will not buy the game. 

I want to kill mages dam it not the poeple who protect the common man. 

I hope BLOOD Mages will be the main enemy in DA3, as Darkspawn were in DA:O. I think Tervinter will not impact significatly on the story, maybe villians in a couple of quests but not important. That comes in DA4

Not that I dispute the templar's role in Thedas, but they don't protect the common man. They're supposed to, but they don't. Have you supported Orsino in the debate at the beginning of Act 3 and then saw the templar death squad killing non-mages who have committed no crimes?

[Urzon]

The Templars (or atleast Lambert and company) want to kill ALL mages now, a category which the Magisters fall into. While I understand some of the upsides the Magisters could think of for siding with the templars, one doesn't side with a rabid dog. Much less, one that would gladly see you dead at its feet.

[Gervaise]

The Chantry, which at that time would have had both the full might of their own Templars to call on and the backing of the Orlesian Empire, has twice (I believe) ordered Exalted Marches on Teviner and failed. When Lambert was dissatisfied with the way things were run in Tevinter, he left and joined the White Chantry. When he became dissatisfied with the way the White Chantry was being run, he announced the templars' independence of the Chantry, with the full backing of the other Knight Commanders outside of Tevinter. I think you can reasonably assume that the templars outside of Tevinter would not work with the Magisters and the latter would have no reason to support an organisation that had historically been hostile towards them.

If the Templars are wise, then those recruits who have not been fully inducted into the Order and thus not yet lyrium dependent (as Alistair was on joining the Grey Wardens), would be encouraged to hone their skills without its aid. Alistair said that you can perform templar skills without lyrium, just as a mage can perform spells, but lyrium helps amplify them and gives you a boost when you have exhausted your natural energy (mental and physical). Alistair suspected that the Chantry encouraged the use of lyrium so that it wold have a degree of control over the templars because the only legitimte source of lyrium on the surface was the Chantry. So the templars will keep supply lines going to the senior templars who are addicted but remove the need from the rest of the order. Recruitment might actually go up if potential recruits realise they will no longer have to face a life of addiction.

So the templar order need only concentrate on keeping the hearts and minds of the ordinary folk on their side and they should pretty much be able to be independent of anyone they do not wish to be associated with.

[Xilizhra]

So the templar order need only concentrate on keeping the hearts and minds of the ordinary folk on their side and they should pretty much be able to be independent of anyone they do not wish to be associated with.

I'm fairly sure this is futile; they'll no longer be able to keep the support of the common people after having split from the Chantry, so I suspect that whatever tactics they use, they won't care all that much about public relations.