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[Gervaise]

The Templars (or Inquisition as they were then known) existed successfully as an independent organisation before the formation of the Chantry. At that time it would appear their remit was to hunt down mages and protect the populace from the misuse of magic. It seems likely that the Chantry (and Orlais) were in favour of bringing them under their control, just as they wished to eradicate or integrate the various other cults that existed at that time. As Lambert has pointed out, it gave the Chantry a military arm to enforce their edicts and without them the Chantry is largely toothless, particularly now Orlais has gone into meltdown. But Cullen was probably right when he stated that people used to have great respect for the templars and this was independent of their Chantry connection. On the whole, outside of Ferelden, people seem to have more fear of magic than sympathy for mages. Much will depend of course on what mages do but on the whole the templars will just have to avoid doing any really questionable acts to maintain good opinion, whereas mages will have to actively prove their worth to be accepted as part of the community.
The templars lost their support in Kirkwall because they mixed politics with their normal duties, which upset some of the nobles but even there the support for mages was not universal as evidence by the distinct lack of support for Orsino. Anders had the support of the Ferelden refugees because of what he did through his clinic. However, it is likely their enthusiasm would have wained in the light of his attack on the Chantry. Even Varric seemed to regard supporting the mages as "allowing dangerous people to run amok", whereas supporting the templars was "defending our way of life". If someone like him who was privy to more of what went on than the majority would be, held such a view, how much more would people in Thedas as a whole be likely to hold that opinion?

[dragonflight288]

Even Varric seemed to regard supporting the mages as "allowing dangerous people to run amok", whereas supporting the templars was "defending our way of life". If someone like him who was privy to more of what went on than the majority would be, held such a view, how much more would people in Thedas as a whole be likely to hold that opinion?

You are talking about a compulsive liar who exaggerates almost everything.

But even then, the templars were part of the Chantry at that point. Now, they're not. The only ones keeping them following any rules are themselves. And the entire order is addicted to lyrium and have largely recruited from religious zealots for centuries. A drug-addicted religious zealot is hardly someone who'll help defend the standard way of life, especially when they become desperate for lyrium. The Chantry has a monopoly on lyrium, so without the chantry, they are without lyrium. No smuggler can smuggle enough lyrium to feed an army. So they'll have to raze the countryside to gather enough valuables or steal from the chantry themselves, just so they can get the lyrium.

Without lyrium, they'll go through withdrawal, and that can result in insanity or death, The templars will have to justify their actions to others and themselves if they wish to remain outside the Chantry. So the most likely scenario is that they'll say its the makers will that they are raping and pillaging across Thedas to hunt mages.

[Gervaise]

As pointed out above, templars do not start being fed lyrium immediately upon joining. They apparently have to go through years of training before they are fully inducted into the order. In DA2 Keran was apparently able to withraw from the order without ill effects because they hadn't made him a full templar. The templar leaders are not stupid. If you want independence from the Chantry, then stop giving your recruits lyrium. It is that simple. Also there is no guarantee that the Divine will have the backing of every Chantry, not when word gets out over what happened in Val Royaux and the fact that mages are on the loose. Local chantries may still support their templars because the local populace, who after all supply them with funds, will expect it of them and if they do not, if a templar stands in the market place with a begging bowl, there are many people who will be willing to contribute. The Chantry has promoted the image of the dangerous mage for so long and the templars as guardians against them, it is the Chantry that is going to have a problem in denying templars their support.

[Xilizhra]

Didn't Cullen, in DA2, say that templar support was falling pretty much everywhere? And it wasn't just because Meredith got involved in politics, but because the "dangerous mage" image was crumbling and being replaced with the "poor, chained apprentice" one. The imagery in the Gallows, with it showing the Tevinter gate guardians when Cullen mentioned the templars and the slave statues when he mentioned the mages, wasn't exactly subtle.

[dragonflight288]

Gervaise wrote...

As pointed out above, templars do not start being fed lyrium immediately upon joining. They apparently have to go through years of training before they are fully inducted into the order. In DA2 Keran was apparently able to withraw from the order without ill effects because they hadn't made him a full templar. The templar leaders are not stupid. If you want independence from the Chantry, then stop giving your recruits lyrium. It is that simple. Also there is no guarantee that the Divine will have the backing of every Chantry, not when word gets out over what happened in Val Royaux and the fact that mages are on the loose. Local chantries may still support their templars because the local populace, who after all supply them with funds, will expect it of them and if they do not, if a templar stands in the market place with a begging bowl, there are many people who will be willing to contribute. The Chantry has promoted the image of the dangerous mage for so long and the templars as guardians against them, it is the Chantry that is going to have a problem in denying templars their support.

Three words.

Templar Death Squads.

Templars may have popular support at the beginning of the war. I don't dispute that. But that vast majority of templars are addicted to lyrium. And they're going to be desperate the longer the war goes. I expect they'll lose a lot of popular support from common people if they see templar raze a village to the ground, possibly do unspeakable horrors on people, all for a few days worth of lyrium, and it'll likely be done because it's the Maker's will.

As has also been stated, more and more people in Thedas are seeing less the popular image of the dangerous apostate who's a blood mage, and more and more of the chained apprentice. If the mages are smart, they'll build on this image and the templars will lose a lot of support.

[Zkyire]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Gervaise wrote...

As pointed out above, templars do not start being fed lyrium immediately upon joining. They apparently have to go through years of training before they are fully inducted into the order. In DA2 Keran was apparently able to withraw from the order without ill effects because they hadn't made him a full templar. The templar leaders are not stupid. If you want independence from the Chantry, then stop giving your recruits lyrium. It is that simple. Also there is no guarantee that the Divine will have the backing of every Chantry, not when word gets out over what happened in Val Royaux and the fact that mages are on the loose. Local chantries may still support their templars because the local populace, who after all supply them with funds, will expect it of them and if they do not, if a templar stands in the market place with a begging bowl, there are many people who will be willing to contribute. The Chantry has promoted the image of the dangerous mage for so long and the templars as guardians against them, it is the Chantry that is going to have a problem in denying templars their support.

Three words.

Templar Death Squads.

Templars may have popular support at the beginning of the war. I don't dispute that. But that vast majority of templars are addicted to lyrium. And they're going to be desperate the longer the war goes. I expect they'll lose a lot of popular support from common people if they see templar raze a village to the ground, possibly do unspeakable horrors on people, all for a few days worth of lyrium, and it'll likely be done because it's the Maker's will.

As has also been stated, more and more people in Thedas are seeing less the popular image of the dangerous apostate who's a blood mage, and more and more of the chained apprentice. If the mages are smart, they'll build on this image and the templars will lose a lot of support.

The other side of this is that new Templars recently inducted wont be addicted yet.

And the longer the war goes on; the more desperate the mages will grow too (resorting to Blood Magic) with greater frequency.

The war will see some on both sides stick to their ideals, and many more breaking them.

[Gervaise]

Templar support was failing in Kirkwall and possibly elsewhere in the Free Marches but I hardly think that was universal in Thedas. In Asunder the people in a village they visit are hostile to mages. In DAO the templars still seem on good terms with the populace. The Mages Collective are working to improve the image of mages in the community and even have the approval of some templars (with bribary or without) but on the whole I would say that the people would regard seeing a templar in their town or village as a reassuring presence. Mages are rejected by their families. Jowan was and Wynne likely was as well because her earliest memory is of being taken in by another family and then being handed over to the templars after she burnt their son's hair for taunting her. She states that the Circle is a much a refuge for mages from the outside world as confinement from it. Generally the mage child probably has as much to fear from the general populace's prejudices as they do from the mage.

In Kirkwall part of the reason there was more sympathy for mages was that they were still being kept in close proximity to their families, had not been surrendered voluntarily by these families and were still able to keep in contact with them.

But you are right, nothing in DA2 was subtle in their depiction of the situation. It was like the worst attrocities you can imagine being conducted in one place and no one (apart from Hawke and companions) having the guts to do anything about it. Yet nothing adds up. Given the depiction of the Divine Justina in Asunder, it makes no sense that a letter to her would not bring about an enquiry into the abuses of the templars or that Leliana would not do more than she did in checking out the situation. The only thing that is useful is the discovery that Tranquility can be reversed so at least the situation of the large number of illegal rites can be redressed, if those tranquil are still alive.

Hopefully the situation will be depicted differently according to which country you are in. So the reaction in Ferelden to the mage/templar war will be different to that of Orlais (bearing mind there is no central authority there at present) and different again to that of, say, the Anderfels. It would be more realistic than having just one blanket reaction throughout Thedas.

[Xilizhra]

Templar support was failing in Kirkwall and possibly elsewhere in the Free Marches but I hardly think that was universal in Thedas. In Asunder the people in a village they visit are hostile to mages. In DAO the templars still seem on good terms with the populace. The Mages Collective are working to improve the image of mages in the community and even have the approval of some templars (with bribary or without) but on the whole I would say that the people would regard seeing a templar in their town or village as a reassuring presence. Mages are rejected by their families. Jowan was and Wynne likely was as well because her earliest memory is of being taken in by another family and then being handed over to the templars after she burnt their son's hair for taunting her. She states that the Circle is a much a refuge for mages from the outside world as confinement from it. Generally the mage child probably has as much to fear from the general populace's prejudices as they do from the mage.

Wynne is, to put it politely, not as brilliantly wise as she thinks she is. Also, those cases are all anecdotal, whereas Cullen was talking about general trends. Especially given the heroic accolades a mage Hero of Ferelden can receive.

But you are right, nothing in DA2 was subtle in their depiction of the situation. It was like the worst attrocities you can imagine being conducted in one place and no one (apart from Hawke and companions) having the guts to do anything about it. Yet nothing adds up. Given the depiction of the Divine Justina in Asunder, it makes no sense that a letter to her would not bring about an enquiry into the abuses of the templars or that Leliana would not do more than she did in checking out the situation. The only thing that is useful is the discovery that Tranquility can be reversed so at least the situation of the large number of illegal rites can be redressed, if those tranquil are still alive.

Leliana, I believe, didn't want to encourage a possible enemy of the Chantry (which my Hawke certainly was) with the notion that there was internal dissent amongst the members of the Chantry themselves, and thus lied about her mission, at least by omission. As for Justinia... well, I trust her as far as I can throw her, and that's really it. Who can say how much she'd care actively about the Kirkwall situation as compared to possible mage rebellion? Those in power will want to keep it.

[Treacherous J Slither]

Urzon wrote...

The Templars (or atleast Lambert and company) want to kill ALL mages now, a category which the Magisters fall into. While I understand some of the upsides the Magisters could think of for siding with the templars, one doesn't side with a rabid dog. Much less, one that would gladly see you dead at its feet.

^Truth.