194 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

People feel strongly, one way or another, about the schism between the mages and the templars. The schism between the two groups has lead to speculation about whether one side can achieve victory over the other, what might happen if one side achieves their goal, and who is right and wrong. Everyone has their own opinion about the mages, the templars, and the Chantry of Andraste. In Dragon Age III, the next protagonist might be faced with choices that can allow him or her to help the mages or the templars in the ongoing war.

Given the difficulty that the creators have faced in importing the choices from Origins into Dragon Age II, to the point where some people have argued that it felt like the choices didn't matter, it makes me wonder if the continential war between mages and templars will result in the next protagonist having a genuine choice in helping one side accomplish their goal and achieve victory against the other, or if the Plot will railroad the protagonist into restoring the status quo because the creators can't accomodate a pro-templar victory and a pro-mage victory in all the sequels.

Personally, I have no interest in restoring the status quo. I would prefer to help the mages achieve victory in the war against the templars, without capitulating to the Chantry of Andraste or the Seekers of Truth. I'm sure there are people who want to help the mages or the templars achieve victory because they agree with their goals, and I think those choices should matter for Dragon Age III.CWould you like the next protagonist to have a choice in helping the mages or templars, and possibly turning the side in the war, or would you be all right with the protagonist restoring the status quo?

[Xilizhra]

Complaints have been too widespread about not being able to make major changes, and EA is on thin ice in general. I believe they'll have little choice but to allow the players to make major changes to the universe, though the major problem is keeping the universe consistent enough to be able to make more games in the series. But if possible, I would remove the status quo as well; I don't really believe there's a way to automatically keep it and have it work out well.

[chuckwells62]

It occurs to me that "overall" the long existence of Flemeth, the entire history behind the Black City, the Templars own use of Lyrium, and the recent corruption of Knight-Commander Meredith (plus the Chantry's weak-willed acceptance of controlling the mage population through semi-magical means) is a major clue that MAGIC holds most of the advantage in the world of Thedas. Blood mages or not, I wouldn't be counting out the wizards in favor of a few thousand deluded pseudo-religious knights. I mean cut loose with an Inferno or Blizzard spell and you can take out large groups of Templars, right?

Modifié par chuckwells62, 27 juillet 2012 - 02:49 .

[Ophir147]

Restore the status quo. The whole conflict was just a tragedy of circumstance, and nothing good will really come out of one side winning over the other.

[Xilizhra]

Ophir147 wrote...

Restore the status quo. The whole conflict was just a tragedy of circumstance, and nothing good will really come out of one side winning over the other.

The status quo itself is a tragedy of circumstance, really.

[EricHVela]

Depends on what is victory.

For one to win, another most lose. Who wins and what cost to others and themselves?

Victory can also simply mean peace. Is that achievable? There are still the costs of war to achieve peace. So, who pays the price of achieving peace?

One must decide what it is worth to reach their criteria for victory. (Ruthless calculus.) EDIT: One must also decide what kind of victory is worth what price.

(Chuck. Supposedly, Templars have resistances to magical attacks supposedly because of the Dust.)

Modifié par ReggarBlane, 27 juillet 2012 - 02:59 .

[Ophir147]

Xilizhra wrote...

The status quo itself is a tragedy of circumstance, really.

The circumstance being that certain people are born with incredibly dangerous magical powers and have a "possess me" sign stapled to their back at birth is not something that we can dissolve (at the moment; here's for wishful thinking).

The fact that the entirety of Thedas will be engaging in civil war over the liberty of Mages is woefully avoidable, except for the fact that each side is caught in a vicious cycle of reaction and overreaction. Once it ends and a few hundred or thousand people are dead, maybe then a better system can rise from the ashes, a (fragile) compromise in order to avoid further bloodshed.

On a side note, what happened to the Templar's ability to silence magic anyway? All they seem to be able to do is put on massive plate armor dresses and leer at Mages really hard.

[Xilizhra]

The fact that the entirety of Thedas will be engaging in civil war over the liberty of Mages is woefully avoidable, except for the fact that each side is caught in a vicious cycle of reaction and overreaction. Once it ends and a few hundred or thousand people are dead, maybe then a better system can rise from the ashes, a (fragile) compromise in order to avoid further bloodshed.

The templars and their actions made it utterly inevitable. When they've been eliminated, a new path can emerge... one free of the Chantry's influence.

[Ophir147]

Xilizhra wrote...

The templars and their actions made it utterly inevitable. When they've been eliminated, a new path can emerge... one free of the Chantry's influence.

Whenever you start to talk like that, I imagine a hooded figure wearing a ragged, dark cloak that covers its entire body except for its hands, which are rubbing together in anticipation of a plan to world domination coming to fruition. All the while it is hunched over a basin of liquid that reflects images of templars being eviscerated.

Modifié par Ophir147, 27 juillet 2012 - 03:22 .

[Xilizhra]

Ophir147 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The templars and their actions made it utterly inevitable. When they've been eliminated, a new path can emerge... one free of the Chantry's influence.

Whenever you start to talk like that, I imagine a hooded figure wearing a ragged, dark cloak that covers its entire body except for its hands, which are rubbing together in anticipation of a plan to world domination coming to fruition. All the while it is hunched over a basin of liquid that reflects images of templars being eviscerated.

I'm deeply offended.

You think I'd take that little care of my dark cloak?

[EricHVela]

We cannot forget that Dragon Age: Origins established that the Circles have a political structure within them as well. There are those that want to appease the Chantry, those that want the Chantry to relax, those that want to be completely free of the Chantry and I think a couple of others.

The second Dragon Age established division among the Templar ranks varying from dogmatic oppression to those who are willing to give freedom to mages with very few exceptions as assistance only.

I would expect some "in-fighting" as well within both Templars and Mages.

If other people enter the fray, they also would likely have their own varying opinions. Like anti-slavery magisters, Orlesians that feel Ferelden and other former territories should stay as their own countries and those that leave the Qun.

This just gets really convoluted now (a nice way of saying a #&@%-storm).

The vicious cycle of overreaction is called escalation. From what I can tell, Kirkwall (specifically, Anders) initiated the escalation where Meredith overreacted and the mages responded in kind. Few believe there is any chance of compromise, just as Anders wanted.

Still, I have yet to see an absolute situation that Anders demanded end up with an absolute solution.

I find it particularly impossible to have an absolute solution. If all mages die in this battle as one of the only two options Anders wanted, mundane parents still have mage children and, therefor, are never all dead. If mages win, they will have to enslave everyone else (which will eventually end in an uprising that finally proves successful) or will compromise with mundanes, which will involve policies set upon the mages from mundanes (as well as policies from the mages upon mundanes).

The latter situation is not absolute and not what Anders wanted. Free or die were his only two options, but even mundanes are not truly free. Anarchy is simply not feasible in a society where people must cooperate to thrive.

[Face of Evil]

Down with the established order! Let the darkspawn rule over all Thedas!

YOUR HOMES ARE OURS! YOUR LIVES ARE OURS! YOUR WIVES ARE OURS! IT ALL BELONGS TO THE BLIGHT!

Modifié par Face of Evil, 27 juillet 2012 - 04:33 .

[Darth Death]

Face of Evil wrote...

Down with the established order! Let the darkspawn rule over all Thedas!

YOUR HOMES ARE OURS! YOUR LIVES ARE OURS! YOUR WIVES ARE OURS! IT ALL BELONGS TO THE BLIGHT!

The blight has a way to unite people together. Even mages & templars.

[Xilizhra]

The latter situation is not absolute and not what Anders wanted. Free or die were his only two options, but even mundanes are not truly free. Anarchy is simply not feasible in a society where people must cooperate to thrive.

I think he'd be fine with something that wasn't anarchy, really.

[Fallstar]

I'd definitely go with the mages. A templar victory would be even worse for the mages than a return to the status quo.

[Shadowvalker]

Aaaahhh

Brings back fun memories about Endlösung...... Just saying...

[Vilegrim]

Mage victory (or rather chantry destroyed, if at all possible)

[brushyourteeth]

ReggarBlane wrote...

Depends on what is victory.

For one to win, another most lose. Who wins and what cost to others and themselves?

Victory can also simply mean peace. Is that achievable? There are still the costs of war to achieve peace. So, who pays the price of achieving peace?

One must decide what it is worth to reach their criteria for victory. (Ruthless calculus.) EDIT: One must also decide what kind of victory is worth what price.

(Chuck. Supposedly, Templars have resistances to magical attacks supposedly because of the Dust.)

Smart post is smart.

I'd rather choose a side and have a hand in helping that side truly succeed. However, I kind of expect a second crisis to override the mage/templar conflict at some point in the game - like the Orlesian civil war, the return of large numbers of dragons, or a Tevinter or Qunari invasion. Which will leave us without resolution on the issue no matter what.

Really, the Templars and Seekers who left the Chantry did so without the Divine's approval, which means I expect them to be a minority. Unless the common rustics of Orlais and Nevarra decide to pick up their pitch forks and punish them sparkly mages for existing, I don't think they'll be much of a match for the combined forces of the mages gathered at Cumberland and the Templars and Seekers who are still loyal to the Divine, who will fight for unity. Some Chantry-loyal Templars may be called on to stay and protect Val Royeaux from invasion due to the supposed civil war, but the rest will most likely work to patch up things with the mages. Which will be awkward, but who knows?

[Chaos Lord Malek]

I want to destroy the mages.

I am really hope that Bioware isn't going to turn this into a child play, and we will have Mages burning at stakes - adult and children as well, as we need to cut the weed out while its small.

[Sharn01]

Ophir147 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The status quo itself is a tragedy of circumstance, really.

The circumstance being that certain people are born with incredibly dangerous magical powers and have a "possess me" sign stapled to their back at birth is not something that we can dissolve (at the moment; here's for wishful thinking).

The fact that the entirety of Thedas will be engaging in civil war over the liberty of Mages is woefully avoidable, except for the fact that each side is caught in a vicious cycle of reaction and overreaction. Once it ends and a few hundred or thousand people are dead, maybe then a better system can rise from the ashes, a (fragile) compromise in order to avoid further bloodshed.

On a side note, what happened to the Templar's ability to silence magic anyway? All they seem to be able to do is put on massive plate armor dresses and leer at Mages really hard.

The Templars where beefed up considerably in DA2, more then I would have liked actually, they have never been able to just slaughter powerful mages, they are more resistant to magic and have abilities to fight against it, they are far from immune to magic. 

In DA:O they spoke of how Templars would hunt in groups because magic was so powerful, and extremely powerful mages where too much for even many groups of Templars to handle.  In DA2 we see a dozen mages cowering in fear because a single templar is standing outside the cave they are in. 

I like consistency and lately that is something bioware has not been able to give the players, in either DA or the ME series.

[Dave of Canada]

That'd entirely depend on who the player character is and how they've been influenced throughout the game, they'd probably be focused on the Divine faction and support the Chantry (considering that's what most likely they've been raised with) until either the Divine appears unreasonable or shows too much Mage sympathy--ironically causing Chantry teachings to backfire on the Chantry itself.

In that case, he'd probably jump on the Templar bandwagon and try to maintain the "status quo" as his/her goal and wish to dethrone the Divine.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 28 juillet 2012 - 07:47 .

[Genetic Destiny]

I'd restore the status quo, but make changes. The belief that "magic is a sin" being drilled into mages' and templar heads has to go. The enemy is often the demons, and anyone that joins them will be as well. Thrax's quote about standing against demons is one principle I'd go by.

[Chipaway111]

Can't I just spend the next game in Antiva knocking back whatever passes for alcohol? It would make for an interesting... if not boring, concept. Its never been done before in a RPG right? (Within the bounds of the story, not the player blatantly ignoring Pillock A asking someone to go rescue his daughter/what-have-you because something shiny is in the next cave over).

Anyway, to steer back on track, I want to help the mages win, only because I'm curious as to what will really happen. Tevinter 2.0? Normal, mundane life as usual? The possibilities are endless, but I agree with brushyourteeth, I have the feeling some larger conflict will overshadow the mage-templar one. Or I hope so, because I'm bloody sick of it. <_<

Modifié par Chipaway111, 28 juillet 2012 - 08:24 .

[dragonflight288]

Hmm. Or they may railroad the plot which leads to the dissolution of the circles but the Chantry remains in power...without an army and they are only a religious institution.

[Ausstig]

Xilizhra wrote...

The fact that the entirety of Thedas will be engaging in civil war over the liberty of Mages is woefully avoidable, except for the fact that each side is caught in a vicious cycle of reaction and overreaction. Once it ends and a few hundred or thousand people are dead, maybe then a better system can rise from the ashes, a (fragile) compromise in order to avoid further bloodshed.

The templars and their actions made it utterly inevitable. When they've been eliminated, a new path can emerge... one free of the Chantry's influence.

So, it's all the Templars fault is it? 

How many churches did the Templars blow up? hum, was it a Templar who said "There can be no comparmise". 


Semes like it was the mages fault. Mages have heald back the progress humanity for too long. With mages being 'removed' from the rest of society then people can look forward, with the three great pillars of civillisation; Faith, Fire and Steel!

I think Blood Mages should be the new Darkspawn in DA3, although I LOVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVE killing the Mages in DA2 particular at the end, take that Anders you Mage suppremicest. :lol::lol::lol: I laugh at his pain 

edit: I want the mages put pack in their box, disarmed and studying theorys of magic, like a university, only fo life, with vistors and a bit of out side contat.

Modifié par Ausstig, 28 juillet 2012 - 12:28 .