194 réponses à ce sujet

[Morty Smith]

Killing and annuling mages is only fighting the symptoms. Fight demons.

If my Character was a mage, I would make this cause public, let willing templars and mages work together in teams to invade the fade and rip the root out.

This whole conflict between templars and mages is short sighted on both ends.

Modifié par Kroitz, 29 juillet 2012 - 09:58 .

[Wolf]

Reforming the Circle is what is necessary.

As it stands (or stood given the current conflict) the Circle(s) are basically glorified prisons.

Yes, the mages have access to clothing food and shelter but are equally exposed to zealots and equally twisted people who would take advantage of them, considering that once they enter, they can never leave or are branded apostates and are hunted down for wanting the same freedom as any other person.

I would be in favor of the Circle becoming a sort of academy where mages go on a regular basis to study magic. They would also need to check in with a specific Templar assigned to search for any signs of demonic possesion or changes regularly. Like a medieval parole-officer of sorts.

This would leave them free to live as any other man but still having the security necessary for mages.

[MisterJB]

Kroitz wrote...

Killing and annuling mages is only fighting the symptoms. Fight demons.

If my Character was a mage, I would make this cause public, let willing templars and mages work together in teams to invade the fade and rip the root out.

This whole conflict between templars and mages is short sighted on both ends.

Even if all demons were, somehow, destroyed, the Circle would still be needed to contain power hungry mages.

[Dave of Canada]

You can't "fight" the fade, that notion is silly.

[DPSSOC]

I'm with the status quo on this one (or slight variation there of). There's just no upside in my mind to either side winning. Victory for the Templars means more brutalization of mages and possibly wiping out the current generation, which would be bad. Victory for the Mages means at best a lot of terrible accidents caused by mages practicing magic unsupervised, and at worst it means just starting the next round in the cycle of oppression.

[Morty Smith]

Dave of Canada wrote...

You can't "fight" the fade, that notion is silly.

Aye, and outside of your post that notion stayed in stupidville.

I didn´t write fight the fade, I wrote fight the evil inside of it.


@MisterJB: But isn´t the circle used primarily to contain those mages because they live in possible danger to be possesed and thus posing a greater threat? Or are you saying that even without the possesion there is the danger of criminal intent? If so, then they should lock up every single soul in Thedas, because no one can assure the absence of malevolent behavior.

Modifié par Kroitz, 29 juillet 2012 - 11:17 .

[gabrien]

I would like to semi battle each side to weed out the bad on my journey to battle the real evil benefiting from the chaos. What that evils is? Iono. Something really nasty from the fade that is actually hard to take down. Something you can't just plow through like the end of DA:2.

EDIT:
What would be greater is if I had the option of either 3. The actions you choose to take on either faction, good and bad, deciding if it is possible for you to bring them together in the end or just destroy one side and it be over. Bringing them together being the best outcome and also the hardest. Well, hardest for me because I tend to play quite an ass.

Modifié par gabrien, 29 juillet 2012 - 11:18 .

[WotanAnubis]

Kroitz wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

You can't "fight" the fade, that notion is silly.

Aye, and outside of your post that notion stayed in stupidville.

I didn´t write fight the fade, I wrote fight the evil inside of it.

And how do you intend to do that, exactly? The demons of the Fade, as far as I can tell, are infinite. They don't really die, they're not really born and for them to exist, mortals simply need to be less than perfect. As long as someone, somewhere wants something, there'll be a Desire Demon. As long as someone they're just plain better than the rest, there'll be a Pride Demon. And so on.

The evil inside the Fade is the evil inside all mortal beings.

So, uhm, good luck winning that war, I guess. I'm sure bringing more violence into the Fade will sort out the problem of a flawed humanity right quick.

[General User]

dragonflight288 wrote...

General User wrote...

I think Mr. House in New Vegas put it best: neither can be permitted to win on their own terms. Any "victory" by either the rebel mages or the rebel Templars might actually work out for the best as long as there's a big enough asterisk attached to it.

Ideally, both the rebel factions would be quashed. You could call that the "status quo" I guess. But really the pre-Kirkwall status quo was dependent on the Chantry using the Templar Order to control and police mages, and putting that back in place more or less left the room when the Templars rebelled.

This is a very accurate portrayal of both sides. Templar supporters do make excellent points when they bring up the threat of abominations and demons. According to the lore, an abomination or a blood mage criminal can do far greater damage than any mundane in that same amount of time (although the mundane can do equal damage given enough time and effort.)

I think any real support fo the Templars or the Templar viewpoint is firmly rooted is the recognition that, for whatever flaws or failings the Templars may or may not have had, the function they performed (protecting the general public from dangerous magic) was a legitmate one.  Afterall, the public has a right to be protected from abominations and blood mages.  So even now that the Templar Order itself has largely gone rogue, in any equitable solution, someone or something is going to have to fill the Order's former role. 

However us mage supporters also point out that the current systems flaws lead to more cases of abominations than it prevents. Mages are driven to desperation and the templars as a whole aren't held accountable for their actions. And that leads to unnecessary abuses that mages and their supporters call foul on.

And that's the other side of the coin, isn't it?  The desire by the mages to be treated as humanely as possible given the circumstances of their birth is not unreasonable either.

The current system cannot stand because of the abuses, but untrained mages are incredibly dangerous to themselves and to everyone around them. Let either side have their way and the flaws of those sides will magnify more than we've already seen.

Quite right.

If any system is to be put back in, if the Chantry is in control then it's highly unlikely they'll ever trust the templars and the seekers to have full reign again. They just can't otherwise we'd have a repeat of all the current problems and history would repeat itself eventually. But if the mages have full freedom, they'll have to deal with 1000 years of religious teachings against them, calling them unholy and cursed for merely existing, and they'd likely remove a lot of the regulations against various forms of magical research that can easily blow up in their faces, and everyone around them would be in danger.

I think the Chantry really just fell into the role of mage custodian by default.  They took over that role in Thedan society largely because no one else wanted it.  And, as much as Thedans can learn from the Chantry's eventual failure as a warden of magic, there's also quite a bit to be learned form their successes over the centuries.

Modifié par General User, 29 juillet 2012 - 04:13 .

[Naughty Bear]

I'm expecting some Mage circle march:

[MisterJB]

Kroitz wrote...
@MisterJB: But isn´t the circle used primarily to contain those mages because they live in possible danger to be possesed and thus posing a greater threat? Or are you saying that even without the possesion there is the danger of criminal intent? If so, then they should lock up every single soul in Thedas, because no one can assure the absence of malevolent behavior.

But not every soul in Thedas has an incredible natural advantage over others.
There are kings and nobles who are born with an advantage but that advantage only exists because society perceives these people as important. You can take their money away and convince their soldiers to disobey them and they become a man like any other.
The ability to immolate others with your mind has a very real value and gives the mages an advantage normal people can never match.

[DKJaigen]

MisterJB wrote...

Kroitz wrote...
@MisterJB: But isn´t the circle used primarily to contain those mages because they live in possible danger to be possesed and thus posing a greater threat? Or are you saying that even without the possesion there is the danger of criminal intent? If so, then they should lock up every single soul in Thedas, because no one can assure the absence of malevolent behavior.

But not every soul in Thedas has an incredible natural advantage over others.
There are kings and nobles who are born with an advantage but that advantage only exists because society perceives these people as important. You can take their money away and convince their soldiers to disobey them and they become a man like any other.
The ability to immolate others with your mind has a very real value and gives the mages an advantage normal people can never match.

What a bunch of nonsense. In our own society the intelligent has always ruled the less intelligent. I tested myelf and have a IQ of 124. thats above average. should i be locked up because im more intelligent then most other people? should i resent those who have more intelligence and use it to aquire more prestige and wealth? the answer is no. Mages may have an advantage but that doesnt justify locking them up.

[Dave of Canada]

....

I.Q =/= magical abilities and risk of possession.

[The Hierophant]

DKJaigen wrote...

What a bunch of nonsense. In our own society the intelligent has always ruled the less intelligent. I tested myelf and have a IQ of 124. thats above average. should i be locked up because im more intelligent then most other people? should i resent those who have more intelligence and use it to aquire more prestige and wealth? the answer is no. Mages may have an advantage but that doesnt justify locking them up.

Having a high IQ is not the same as blowing up a building with a snap of a finger, or being prone to demonic possesion.

[MisterJB]

DKJaigen wrote...
What a bunch of nonsense. In our own society the intelligent has always ruled the less intelligent. I tested myelf and have a IQ of 124. thats above average. should i be locked up because im more intelligent then most other people? should i resent those who have more intelligence and use it to aquire more prestige and wealth? the answer is no. Mages may have an advantage but that doesnt justify locking them up.

I'm just going to repeat what the two above have already said.
Having an above average intelligence is not the same as being able to burn a city to the ground because you've had a bad day.
Also, the most intelligent is not, usually, the one with power. More often than not, it's those charismatic that can appeal to the masses that gain power. While this does require intelligence, the most intelligent man in America is not the president, is he?

Modifié par MisterJB, 29 juillet 2012 - 08:17 .

[DKJaigen]

MisterJB wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...
What a bunch of nonsense. In our own society the intelligent has always ruled the less intelligent. I tested myelf and have a IQ of 124. thats above average. should i be locked up because im more intelligent then most other people? should i resent those who have more intelligence and use it to aquire more prestige and wealth? the answer is no. Mages may have an advantage but that doesnt justify locking them up.

I'm just going to repeat what the two above have already said.
Having an above average intelligence is not the same as being able to burn a city to the ground because you've had a bad day.
Also, the most intelligent is not, usually, the one with power. More often than not, it's those charismatic that can appeal to the masses that gain power. While this does require intelligence, the most intelligent man in America is not the president, is he?

I frankly dont give a damn if somebody is able to toast an entire town. My only concern is intent not ability. And if you dont think intelligence is dangerous then you are wrong.

[Dave of Canada]

Personally, I'd like to see three things influence the ending of the war: The Divine, the Civil War and the war effort.

Divine:
The Divine has shown mage sympathies, she could perhaps ease mages into the public eye and garner public support provided you've sided with the mages. Depending on the war effort and how it's going, perhaps she'll try to be reformist or try and return to the status quo but with more ideal settings towards the mages.

Templar would require overthrowing her, replacing her with a puppet (or not at all, option also exists for mage supporters). Divine faction would be similar to the mage alternative, though you can influence her sympathies.

Civil:
Depending on who you support, mages and Templar could gain very different influences on the state of the civil war. I mean, Gaspard and Celene value different things and could see entirely different benefits from both factions, such as Gaspard wanting mages for his war effort against Celene / Ferelden and beyond.

More long-term ramifications would most likely come from this, such as Gaspard greatly helping the mage war effort but pretty much forcing them into the toolshed and Celene using mages but trying to keep her distance to keep public approval.

War effort:
Well, pretty obvious. A war that's going poorly isn't going to do much for mage freedom or locking them away again, so you'd need something to influence the war effort against your enemy faction. Perhaps you allow blood mages to do their thing and sacrifice entire villages, gaining public scorn but increasing your chances of winning.

Basically, do you allow idealism to get in the way of your goal and it costs you, ect. 

DKJaigen wrote...

I frankly dont give a damn if somebody is able to toast an entire town.

So you're ignoring one of the biggest aspects of the argument to try and prove... weird non-sensical comparison?

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 29 juillet 2012 - 08:52 .

[Fallstar]

World leaders today have destructive power available that makes the mages look utterly insignificant. Yet none of the those have gone "Muhahahaha, I'm going to kill everyone for no particular reason."

It bemuses me when people think mages would do so, just because they have that power.

[Naughty Bear]

DuskWarden wrote...

World leaders today have destructive power available that makes the mages look utterly insignificant. Yet none of the those have gone "Muhahahaha, I'm going to kill everyone for no particular reason."

It bemuses me when people think mages would do so, just because they have that power.

Because they know that if they pressed that big red button to release a nuke or nukes, everyone else would in retaliation, turning Earth into a nuclear wasteland which would serve no purpose what so ever unless you are a massive **** and just want to ruin everyones day just for the hell of it.

I doubt the mages could turn what ever planet Dragon Age takes place into a nuclear wasteland.

[General User]

DuskWarden wrote...

World leaders today have destructive power available that makes the mages look utterly insignificant. Yet none of the those have gone "Muhahahaha, I'm going to kill everyone for no particular reason."

It bemuses me when people think mages would do so, just because they have that power.

What are you talking about?  World leaders go on killing sprees of varying degrees of reason (not to mention sanity) all the time.

Modifié par General User, 29 juillet 2012 - 09:34 .

[Dave of Canada]

World leaders have men they answer to, laws which govern them (though they often bend), politics which dictate what they do, modern morals which they adhere to and they follow generations of tradition in the field. Not everybody can become a world leader and even then, they can't do rash decisions or do things against their will.

Even then, not everybody can suddenly become a world leader.

Edit: Hell, mages can use their magic for far more than just destruction and they can do it against their own will.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 29 juillet 2012 - 09:26 .

[Kingdhanny]

What would the world be with peace?Or what would it be with one race or type of person ruled over the world?

IMO it would suck.so I think in DA this would be the same,the only way I could see Mage or Templar domination happening,I think for this story line to fell right the game would have to start out with your character in prison for a choice you made in either DAO/DA2 what ever side u were against is now lording over the people. I think a mage tyrant would be fun to kill....

[Morty Smith]

MisterJB wrote...

Kroitz wrote...
@MisterJB: But isn´t the circle used primarily to contain those mages because they live in possible danger to be possesed and thus posing a greater threat? Or are you saying that even without the possesion there is the danger of criminal intent? If so, then they should lock up every single soul in Thedas, because no one can assure the absence of malevolent behavior.

But not every soul in Thedas has an incredible natural advantage over others.
There are kings and nobles who are born with an advantage but that advantage only exists because society perceives these people as important. You can take their money away and convince their soldiers to disobey them and they become a man like any other.
The ability to immolate others with your mind has a very real value and gives the mages an advantage normal people can never match.

But this "advantage" is not nessesary to kill other people. A stone can be an advantage if the other does not posses one and can also be used to slaughter one another. A person that was crippled can never match the "advantage" of a man with a fit body and jet those are not locked up to protect those at the "disatvantage".

[nightscrawl]

This is a refreshing change from the usual m/t conflict threads.

I prefer fighting for one side or other with the ability to make a lasting change. I have a few reasons for this. The first is because I want the conflict to have some sort of end. After an entire game and novel revolving around it, and more to come in the next game, I'm sick to death of the issue. This is especially irksome as it seems to be preventing us from getting more involved with elven or dwarven issues, as well as more stuff with the Architect and darkspawn. The second reason is that I want to have a big impact on Thedas by taking a side in this issue. And finally, the third reason is because I think the "status quo" is broken, beginning with a flawed concept in having the templars being a faith-based military arm of a major religious organization. They cannot make objective decisions, or police effectively, when they are beholden to the Chantry.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 29 juillet 2012 - 09:45 .

[Fallstar]

Naughty Bear wrote...

Because they know that if they pressed that big red button to release a nuke or nukes, everyone else would in retaliation, turning Earth into a nuclear wasteland which would serve no purpose what so ever unless you are a massive **** and just want to ruin everyones day just for the hell of it.

I doubt the mages could turn what ever planet Dragon Age takes place into a nuclear wasteland.

Equally, if the mages summoned hordes of demons and used all non mages to fuel powerful spells, everyone would turn in retaliation turning Thedas into an effective wasteland which would serve no purpose whatsoever unless you are a massive  **** and just want to ruin everyones day just for the hell of it. 

As you put it, the argument applies equally well to mages. And isn't the whole point of the debate that mages do have the potential to cause vast amounts of misery? Otherwise why do the Templars exist?

General User wrote...
What are you talking about?  World leaders go on killing sprees of varying degrees of reason all the time.

 

Yes you're correct, humans in general kill people all the time. What's happening in the Middle East at the moment is an example. But the countries with the power (AKA nuclear stockpiles) to cause the most damage, such as the USA, Russian, China, some European countries etc. do not use that power. Because it'd be pointless, obviously. So why would a mage do so?

But, lets say a cult of blue skinned, purple eyed people committed mass murder. Does this mean you should lock away all blue skinned, purple eyed people because they might also be a danger? Of course you don't, to do so would be completely ridiculous. Especially if you don't even study blue skinned, purple eyed people and so don't even have a clue about anything relating to them.

Now, lets say a cult of mages committed mass murder. Does this mean you should lock away all mages because they might also be a danger? Of course you don't, to do so would be completely ridiculous. Especially if you don't even study magic and so don't even have a clue about anything relating to mages.

Dave of Canada wrote... 
World leaders have men they answer to, laws which govern them (though they often bend), politics which dictate what they do, modern morals which they adhere to and they follow generations of tradition in the field. Not everybody can become a world leader and even then, they can't do rash decisions or do things against their will. 

Even then, not everybody can suddenly become a world leader.

Edit: Hell, mages can use their magic for far more than just destruction and they can do it against their own will. 

Exactly true, world leaders have men they answer to, for the most part. They answer to their peers at the UN. If mages answered to other mages, rather than to organisations whose power is based on various lies spread about said mages which then justify mages being treated as some sort of sub-human class, there wouldn't be an issue. Sadly that isn't the case, meaning there is a (rather large) issue.

And world leaders make rash decisions and make decisions they would rather not all the time. They have various pressures placed on them, not least from other world leaders. But that doesn't mean they will just happily go along with anything they are told and set a few nukes off. Equally whilst mages might suffer the attentions of demons, they won't just go along with it and become an abomination.

And finally, world leaders can also use their power for far more than just destruction. They can influence stock markets, pressure people into making certain decisons, make policy that might help certain groups to the detriment of others. Just like a mage isn't a one-fireball pony, neither is a world leader a man sitting in front of a red button.