194 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

DuskWarden wrote...
But, lets say a cult of blue skinned, purple eyed people committed mass murder. Does this mean you should lock away all blue skinned, purple eyed people because they might also be a danger? Of course you don't, to do so would be completely ridiculous. Especially if you don't even study blue skinned, purple eyed people and so don't even have a clue about anything relating to them.

Now, lets say a cult of mages committed mass murder. Does this mean you should lock away all mages because they might also be a danger? Of course you don't, to do so would be completely ridiculous. Especially if you don't even study magic and so don't even have a clue about anything relating to mages.

Do this blue skinned, purped eye people have the power to incinerate cities with a tought? Are they more susceptible to demonic possession than the rest of the world?

Because mages have and are. And that is why they can't be treated as every day men.

Exactly true, world leaders have men they answer to, for the most part. They answer to their peers at the UN. If mages answered to other mages, rather than to organisations whose power is based on various lies spread about said mages which then justify mages being treated as some sort of sub-human class, there wouldn't be an issue. Sadly that isn't the case, meaning there is a (rather large) issue.

There is a place in Thedas where mages answers to other mages.
It's called Tevinter.

Modifié par MisterJB, 29 juillet 2012 - 10:00 .

[MisterJB]

Kroitz wrote...
But this "advantage" is not nessesary to kill other people. A stone can be an advantage if the other does not posses one and can also be used to slaughter one another. A person that was crippled can never match the "advantage" of a man with a fit body and jet those are not locked up to protect those at the "disatvantage".

This advantage contains much more destructive power than anything else in Thedas and, unlike a rock or a sword,  magic can't be removed from a mage except through Tranquility.

Our society is not exemplary in the treatment of disabled people. And it was much worse in medieval times.
Thedas is a medieval setting and we have seen what happens when mages are allowed to rule themselves.

Modifié par MisterJB, 29 juillet 2012 - 10:06 .

[General User]

DuskWarden wrote...

General User wrote...
What are you talking about?  World leaders go on killing sprees of varying degrees of reason all the time.

 

Yes you're correct, humans in general kill people all the time. What's happening in the Middle East at the moment is an example. But the countries with the power (AKA nuclear stockpiles) to cause the most damage, such as the USA, Russian, China, some European countries etc. do not use that power. Because it'd be pointless, obviously. So why would a mage do so?

Whether they go whole hog or not, people and nations that have power do indeed use it.  Sometimes for good, but all too often for ill.

But, lets say a cult of blue skinned, purple eyed people committed mass murder. Does this mean you should lock away all blue skinned, purple eyed people because they might also be a danger? Of course you don't, to do so would be completely ridiculous. Especially if you don't even study blue skinned, purple eyed people and so don't even have a clue about anything relating to them.

Let's say that seemingly randomly people are  born with the ability to control and direct the physical/elemental forces of nature and control the thoughts of others and that these people have a marked propensity to become posessed by demons and go on killing sprees.  Does this mean society should subject these potentially dangerous individuals to a fairly large degree of oversight and control in the interest of public safety?  Of course it should, not to do so would be completely ridiculous.

Now, lets say a cult of mages committed mass murder. Does this mean you should lock away all mages because they might also be a danger?

If to "lock away" mages is the only means to insure that they can be effectively controlled, then yes they should.  Not because of anything they did, but because of the threat they represent to others.

Modifié par General User, 29 juillet 2012 - 10:10 .

[Xilizhra]

There is a place in Thedas where mages answers to other mages.
It's called Tevinter.

Also, Rivain. And you hardly need mages to be evil slaveholders; just ask Orlais and Antiva. Orlais even copies the expansionist part. Ferelden and the Free Marches seem to be a bit unusual for not having outright slaves, and of course much of the Free Marches seems to be overrun with slavers anyway. And dwarves, though not technically slaveholders, are just as bad in their own way.

Our society is not exemplary in the treatment of disabled people. And it was much worse in medieval times.
Thedas is a medieval setting and we have seen what happens when mages are allowed to rule themselves.

It's a thousands-year-old culture that was never really defeated by Andraste. It also controlled the entire continent until Andraste, and then Orlais' anti-mage cult spread around to the other nations, so really, Tevinter alone isn't an adequate sample size.

If to "lock away" mages is the only means to insure that they can be effectively controlled, then yes they should. Not because of anything they did, but because of the threat they represent to others.

Noted, but this has nothing whatsoever to do with the Chantry being in charge. Which it should not and never should be.

[Dintonta]

Do you think that the old Tevinters were as much subjects to demonic possession as the present mage?
I mean, the Archons were vilified for their slavery and bloodmagic, but it didn't strike me that the abominations' problem was as much explicitly cited when it comes to old Tevinter.
And if they had so much abominations breaking havoc through their ranks because they didn't have templars to control them, how is it they could build such a strong, commited and disciplined empire (with that nifty road network and all)?
Besides, consider Morrigan : She always looked more reliable to me than most of the Circle mages (at least regarding her dealings with demons) as she seems to know them better. (Just compare her with Wynne in the Fade.)

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Also, Rivain.

Neither games nor books have yet approached Rivain. We know virtually nothing about it apart from a few codex entries. The two rivains we have encoutered were not interested in discussing their country.

And you hardly need mages to be evil slaveholders; just ask Orlais and Antiva. Orlais even copies the expansionist part. Ferelden and the Free Marches seem to be a bit unusual for not having outright slaves, and of course much of the Free Marches seems to be overrun with slavers anyway. And dwarves, though not technically slaveholders, are just as bad in their own way.

Except slavery is forbidden in Orlais and Antiva, thanks to the Chantry you detest so.
I do not doubt some nobles do keep elves as pets but, according to Leliana, most are treated as an expensive commodity. Nothing Orlais and Antiva has done compares to the deeds of Tevinter.
Orlesians don't bleed little boys at their parties to impress their guests.

It's a thousands-year-old culture that was never really defeated by Andraste. It also controlled the entire continent until Andraste, and then Orlais' anti-mage cult spread around to the other nations, so really, Tevinter alone isn't an adequate sample size.

It's basic psychology. Those with power tend to abuse it.
Mages have a lot more of it and it is thus harder to remove them from power when they, inevitably, start practicing blood magic.

[Xilizhra]

Do you think that the old Tevinters were as much subjects to demonic possession as the present mage?
I
mean, the Archons were vilified for their slavery and bloodmagic, but
it didn't strike me that the abominations' problem was as much
explicitly cited when it comes to old Tevinter.
And if they had so
much abominations breaking havoc through their ranks because they didn't
have templars to control them, how is it they could build such a
strong, commited and disciplined empire (with that nifty road network
and all)?
Besides, consider Morrigan : She always looked more
reliable to me than most of the Circle mages (at least regarding her
dealings with demons) as she seems to know them better. (Just compare
her with Wynne in the Fade.)

No, Tevinter seems to have its own systems in place to prevent abomination outbreaks, even before the creation of the Chantry. Which may well be because they have access to magical knowledge that's highly restricted in other nations (Anders mentions that Tevinter was the only nation interested in curing abominations instead of killing them, for instance).

Modifié par Xilizhra, 29 juillet 2012 - 10:43 .

[MisterJB]

Dintonta wrote...

Do you think that the old Tevinters were as much subjects to demonic possession as the present mage?
I mean, the Archons were vilified for their slavery and bloodmagic, but it didn't strike me that the abominations' problem was as much explicitly cited when it comes to old Tevinter.
And if they had so much abominations breaking havoc through their ranks because they didn't have templars to control them, how is it they could build such a strong, commited and disciplined empire (with that nifty road network and all)?
Besides, consider Morrigan : She always looked more reliable to me than most of the Circle mages (at least regarding her dealings with demons) as she seems to know them better. (Just compare her with Wynne in the Fade.)

Tevinters courted demons to obtain power. They openly taught blood magic and encouraged apprentices to attempt to control denizens of the Fade.
Who knows how many famous Archons were abominations like Uldred.

Modifié par MisterJB, 29 juillet 2012 - 10:45 .

[Xilizhra]

Neither games nor books have yet approached Rivain. We know virtually nothing about it apart from a few codex entries. The two rivains we have encoutered were not interested in discussing their country.

We know that it has mages not of the Circle.

Except slavery is forbidden in Orlais and Antiva, thanks to the Chantry you detest so.
I do not doubt some nobles do keep elves as pets but, according to Leliana, most are treated as an expensive commodity. Nothing Orlais and Antiva has done compares to the deeds of Tevinter.
Orlesians don't bleed little boys at their parties to impress their guests.

Hah. Antiva openly practices slavery; have you forgotten how Zevran "joined" the Crows? Orlais in the meantime only pretends that slavery is illegal with its "servants."
Tevinter is more cavalier, but also cares less about international opinion in general.

It's basic psychology. Those with power tend to abuse it.
Mages have a lot more of it and it is thus harder to remove them from power when they, inevitably, start practicing blood magic.

Then mages can't have power over others, just as others cannot have power over mages. Having mages live in their own society altogether would be the most straightforward way of bringing this about, but it couldn't be anything like the Chantry system. Or more cautious integration measures could be taken to bring mages into society as defenses against their powers are also permitted to be more widespread (anyone who has the Litany of Adralla, for instance, seems to be able to break mind control).

Tevinters courted demons to obtain power. They openly taught blood magic and encouraged apprentices to attempt to control denizens of the Fade.
Who knows how many famous Archons were abominations like Uldred.

Not enough to destroy or even notably damage the Imperium, at any rate.

[Dintonta]

MisterJB wrote...
...Who knows how many famous Archons were abominations like Uldred.

All the abominations we see in DA:O are very short-sighted and destructive (including Uldred).
Considering what they achieved, I rather doubt the Archons were such. They may have been mixed abomination/humans but, as my blood-mage warden said to Wynne (trying to comfort her) as long one retains her humanity she is not an abomination...
Maybe the Chantry just made an involuntary trade-off : Blood-magic against abomination?

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
We know that it has mages not of the Circle.

So does Ferelden, they're called apostates. We don't know how these mages acts towards the general population, we don't know if they have any control over the state, etc.

Hah. Antiva openly practices slavery; have you forgotten how Zevran "joined" the Crows? Orlais in the meantime only pretends that slavery is illegal with its "servants."
Tevinter is more cavalier, but also cares less about international opinion in general.

What happened with Zevran is no different than Alistair being given to the Chantry to become a templar. It's not a system I particularly care to defend but this is a Dark Fantasy, it sucks for everyone. What Zevran or other elves endure in Orlais or Antiva is nothing compared to what an actual slave endures in Tevinter.
Nobles like the one who tortured Fiona are a minority.

Then mages can't have power over others, just as others cannot have power over mages. Having mages live in their own society altogether would be the most straightforward way of bringing this about, but it couldn't be anything like the Chantry system. Or more cautious integration measures could be taken to bring mages into society as defenses against their powers are also permitted to be more widespread (anyone who has the Litany of Adralla, for instance, seems to be able to break mind control).

An independent state of mages in neither possible nor desirable. For one, mages are a valuable resource. They're the nuclear power of Thedas.
And this state wouldn't take long before it became a second Tevinter.

Discovering ways for normal people to contend with mages would be preferable but almost impossible in a medieval setting where most can't even read.

Not enough to destroy or even notably damage the Imperium, at any rate.

Enough to destroy other countries, tough.

[Dintonta]

MisterJB wrote...
...Enough to destroy other countries, tough.

...And to leave them a vital road network, magic towers and strongholds...

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

If to "lock away" mages is the only means to insure that they can be effectively controlled, then yes they should. Not because of anything they did, but because of the threat they represent to others.

Noted, but this has nothing whatsoever to do with the Chantry being in charge. Which it should not and never should be.

I agree entirely.  Safeguarding the general public is properly the role of the State, not the Chruch.

[Xilizhra]

What happened with Zevran is no different than Alistair being given to the Chantry to become a templar. It's not a system I particularly care to defend but this is a Dark Fantasy, it sucks for everyone. What Zevran or other elves endure in Orlais or Antiva is nothing compared to what an actual slave endures in Tevinter.
Nobles like the one who tortured Fiona are a minority.

So you missed the fact that Zevran was purchased? If that's not slavery, I don't quite want to know what is. Though I'm entirely happy to quote you on Zevran being bought by the Crows as being like the Chantry raising people.

An independent state of mages in neither possible nor desirable. For one, mages are a valuable resource. They're the nuclear power of Thedas.
And this state wouldn't take long before it became a second Tevinter.

Why is magic the only kind of power that makes people always want to become slavers, no exceptions? I seriously don't get this.

Discovering ways for normal people to contend with mages would be preferable but almost impossible in a medieval setting where most can't even read.

No reason not to try, and I'd like you to cite the thing about reading, which doesn't seem to be all that uncommon.

Enough to destroy other countries, tough.

Obviously, when they know so much less about magic.

I agree entirely. Safeguarding the general public is properly the role of the State, not the Chruch.

I don't think we have a "state," really, so much as a bunch of monarchs or oligarchs with varying degrees of low accountability. I don't know if it'd be a significant improvement.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't think we have a "state," really, so much as a bunch of monarchs or oligarchs with varying degrees of low accountability. I don't know if it'd be a significant improvement.

Depends on what exactly you're looking for in the way of improvement.  The Chantry originally stepped into it role as custodian of mages as much by happenstance and default as anything else.  So getting the Crowned Heads of Thedas to step to the plate and fullfill their proper role in society strikes me as quite a dramatic improvment indeed.

Besides, as Louis XIV might say, "I am the State."

[Dave of Canada]

Anyone else in charge of mages and suddenly everybody wages war with each other and whoever has the most reliable and powerful mages win.

[Xilizhra]

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't think we have a "state," really, so much as a bunch of monarchs or oligarchs with varying degrees of low accountability. I don't know if it'd be a significant improvement.

Depends on what exactly you're looking for in the way of improvement.  The Chantry originally stepped into it role as custodian of mages as much by happenstance and default as anything else.  So getting the Crowned Heads of Thedas to step to the plate and fullfill their proper role in society strikes me as quite a dramatic improvment indeed.

Besides, as Louis XIV might say, "I am the State."

I don't know; I'd prefer for the mage organization to hold equal power to any specific state, and make individual bargains with them for how magic would be used.

Anyone else in charge of mages and suddenly everybody wages war with
each other and whoever has the most reliable and powerful mages win.

So why hasn't Tevinter reconquered Thedas?

Modifié par Xilizhra, 30 juillet 2012 - 01:01 .

[MisterJB]

Because they're in a never ending war with the Qunari.

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Because they're in a never ending war with the Qunari.

Who didn't appear until the Steel Age. That's several hundred years the Imperium had free.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
So you missed the fact that Zevran was purchased? If that's not slavery, I don't quite want to know what is. Though I'm entirely happy to quote you on Zevran being bought by the Crows as being like the Chantry raising people.

And after he completed the training, he was paid for his services and was respected in Antiva. Don't compare that or being trained to be a templar to being a slave like the poor bastards who built Kirkwall.

Why is magic the only kind of power that makes people always want to become slavers, no exceptions? I seriously don't get this.

Who said anything about magic being the only kind of power that is prone to abuse? However, if you place mages in power, they will do what they consider necessary to keep that power. More often than not, this means resorting to blood magic.

Not to mention the attrocities of Tevinter are not limited to slavery.

No reason not to try, and I'd like you to cite the thing about reading, which doesn't seem to be all that uncommon.

Illiteracy was the norm in the Dark Ages.

Obviously, when they know so much less about magic.

Thus proving just how dangerous it is for heads of state to have free acess to it.

[Dave of Canada]

Tevinter was a bit occupied before then considering the Templar had gathered for an Exalted March (but never succeeded) and they were fighting for dear life until the fourth Blight started. 

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 30 juillet 2012 - 01:23 .

[Xilizhra]

And after he completed the training, he was paid for his services and was respected in Antiva. Don't compare that or being trained to be a templar to being a slave like the poor bastards who built Kirkwall.

Obviously, the jobs were different. Crows aren't the only slaves in Antiva; a codex entry mentions that it's not at all uncommon for humans and elves alike to be captured by Antivan slavers. And slave lots vary in Tevinter as well; manumission exists even for nonmages (of course, any mage slave, even an elf, can work their way up to magister) as we can see from Fenris mentioning that his sister was no longer a slave even before learning she was a mage.

Who said anything about magic being the only kind of power that is prone to abuse? However, if you place mages in power, they will do what they consider necessary to keep that power. More often than not, this means resorting to blood magic.

I will admit that the only Dalish Keeper we've actually seen who hasn't done one terrible demon-related thing or another is Lanaya, but still, she does exist as a counterexample (and we only saw two others anyway). And the only real examples of malevolently used blood magic to retain political power elsewhere are in Tevinter.

Not to mention the attrocities of Tevinter are not limited to slavery.

Aside from slaves and what they do to slaves, the only special thing I can remember is the ancient sinking of Arlathan, which Orlais pretty much repeated anyway.

Illiteracy was the norm in the Dark Ages.

Not only did those not exist (or at least, the term is considered seriously misleading by historians and came from Renaissance Protestant influence to make the medieval Catholic civilizations look bad), this isn't our own historical Earth.

Thus proving just how dangerous it is for heads of state to have free acess to it.

Made less so when ordinary people can know more about it, enough to reliably defend themselves, instead of relying on superstition and drug-addled zealots for protection.

[Sharn01]

Xilizhra wrote...

Illiteracy was the norm in the Dark Ages.

I have said it before and I will say it again, fantasy setting are not the dark ages, they are not medieval europe.  They do bear some resemblance to that time period, but the people that exist in every fantasy setting, DA included, are cleaner and better educated then those that lived during earths dark ages.  They have to be, modern people would never be able to relate to the characters or the story if they where not.

[Fallstar]

MisterJB wrote...
This advantage contains much more destructive power than anything else in Thedas and, unlike a rock or a sword,  magic can't be removed from a mage except through Tranquility.

Our society is not exemplary in the treatment of disabled people. And it was much worse in medieval times.
Thedas is a medieval setting and we have seen what happens when mages are allowed to rule themselves.

MisterJB wrote...
There is a place in Thedas where mages answers to other mages.
It's called Tevinter.

 

You have seen what happened to a single civilization where mages ruled themselves. Drawing conclusions based on one data point would, I'm sure you'll agree, render those conclusions meaningless.

[SnakeStrike8]

In response to thhe OP:
No, a return to the status quo is not possible. We saw this in the 'Best served Cold' quest in DA 2.
On the surface, it was very much a desirable sort of status quo; the templars would live with mages, ready to slot any that happened to grow extra bags of flesh or otherwise look nasty, and the mages in turn would be free to study magic, discuss their lives, drink tea, spawn babies and whatever else. Good idea, no?
Then we went through that quest, and saw how it ended: The mage side of the equation lost her marbles and killed the templar side of the equation. Violence and explosions followed. The message that the developers were giving seemed clear to me: There can be no peace between templars and mages, because the mage will always go off his rocker and murder things for kicks.