194 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

DuskWarden wrote...
You have seen what happened to a single civilization where mages ruled themselves. Drawing conclusions based on one data point would, I'm sure you'll agree, render those conclusions meaningless.

What we have seen are mages from every nation in Thedas looking for ways to justify the use of blood magic and demons. Freedom, power, necessity.
Tevinter almost destroyed the world five times now and that is not even taking into account the daily attrocities that are perpretated within their borders. Maybe you are willing to risk the rise of another magocracy in the name of morality or equality but I veemently disagree.

[DPSSOC]

Xilizhra wrote...

Thus proving just how dangerous it is for heads of state to have free acess to it.

Made less so when ordinary people can know more about it, enough to reliably defend themselves, instead of relying on superstition and drug-addled zealots for protection.

How do you propose ordinary people "reliably defend themselves" from magic?  Do you propose we teach everybody to be a Templar?  I mean I know knowledge is power and knowing is half the battle but if somebody's throwing fireballs or shooting lightning bolts knowledge is not going to help me.  Especially if we look at the capabilities of ordinary people.  Ordinary people couldn't deal with 5 guys lightly armored and (with one exception I believe) armed with daggers in DA:O.

[Shadowvalker]

MisterJB wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...
You have seen what happened to a single civilization where mages ruled themselves. Drawing conclusions based on one data point would, I'm sure you'll agree, render those conclusions meaningless.

What we have seen are mages from every nation in Thedas looking for ways to justify the use of blood magic and demons. Freedom, power, necessity.
Tevinter almost destroyed the world five times now and that is not even taking into account the daily attrocities that are perpretated within their borders. Maybe you are willing to risk the rise of another magocracy in the name of morality or equality but I veemently disagree.

Let's hope YOU don't get born a mage.....

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...
You have seen what happened to a single civilization where mages ruled themselves. Drawing conclusions based on one data point would, I'm sure you'll agree, render those conclusions meaningless.

What we have seen are mages from every nation in Thedas looking for ways to justify the use of blood magic and demons. Freedom, power, necessity.
Tevinter almost destroyed the world five times now and that is not even taking into account the daily attrocities that are perpretated within their borders. Maybe you are willing to risk the rise of another magocracy in the name of morality or equality but I veemently disagree.

Blood magic isn't inherently evil, and the simple knowledge/use of it for nonmalicious purposes shouldn't be punished. Especially since knowledge of it seems to be rather useful in countering it, as shown with Adralla.

For another way around the mind control option, using templars as either the bodyguards of state leaders or giving said leaders templar training themselves would probably be helpful. And if a mage wound up in that position, that'd mean greater resistance as well.

[MisterJB]

Nuclear power is also not inherently evil but we don't let common people build a reactor in their homes because it's incredibly dangerous.

Also, no mage should ever be head of state.

Modifié par MisterJB, 31 juillet 2012 - 01:13 .

[Xilizhra]

MisterJB wrote...

Nuclear power is also not inherently evil but we don't let common people build a reactor in their homes because it's incredibly dangerous.

Your analogy is a poor one. Nuclear power isn't under the control of anyone's will. Blood magic isn't dangerous; being a blood mage won't cause your blood to leap out and attack people of its own accord. It's the people who use blood magic who can be dangerous, depending on their intent; notably, the Grey Wardens allow it (in fact, the mechanics of their powers revolve around it) and don't seem to be corrupted by it. Blood magic isn't corruptive either of its own accord. It's all down to the people who use it, and by making it a capital offense, all you're doing is ensuring that everyone who uses it  and knows how it works is of the personality type who would ignore laws to obtain power. Of course the users are going to skew toward the criminal; even then, there are still those who use it for good.

And I see nothing inherently wrong with a mage being head of state.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 31 juillet 2012 - 01:18 .

[MisterJB]

Blood magic is inherently dangerous. That is a fact.
It is capable of rupturing the Veil allowing demons into our realm. Even if summoned, we've seen how easily they can overpower the blood mages and run amok. It is also corruptive because people can be tempted and having acess to this much power with a smallcut would be intoxicating, hard to resist. More often than not, the mage finds ways of justifying why he is bleeding some stranger.

Blood magic must remain forbidden and used only under controlled scenarios and for the most vital of tasks like fighting the darkspawn and hunting apostates. If mages can't even be trusted to absent from one school of magic, how can normal people trust them with freedom?

Our systems of governance have created enough tyrants. A tyrant that can boil people alive with a tought is even worse.

Modifié par MisterJB, 31 juillet 2012 - 01:36 .

[Josielyn]

I agree that magic should be regulated but not prohibited. Perhaps a mage can go once a year for safety training, and be issued a license. :-)

[Xilizhra]

Blood magic is inherently dangerous. That is a fact.

Blood magic isn't an object or entity, any more than the skillset of an engineer or doctor. It's an ability to bring forth effects; those effects may be dangerous, depending on how they're used, but that's different.

It is capable of rupturing the Veil allowing demons into our realm.

It's not all that hard to do this even without blood magic. Look at the Alienage orphanage, or the Brecilian Forest. In any case, the simple use of blood magic doesn't weaken the Veil; there's just a particular set of spells within the skillset of blood magic that do so.

It is also corruptive because people can be tempted and having acess to this much power with a smallcut would be intoxicating, hard to resist. More often than not, the mage finds ways of justifying why he is bleeding some stranger.

"Corrupting" would be if it there was an actual magical effect that decayed one's morality. There isn't. Blood magic doesn't summon demons or control minds, people summon demons or control minds. And even if blood magic is forbidden, it seems relatively easy to learn; it just ensures that the people who do learn it will tend to be ruthless criminals who do a lot more to protect their source of power.

Blood magic must remain forbidden and used only under controlled scenarios and for the most vital of tasks like fighting the darkspawn and hunting apostates. If mages can't even be trusted to absent from one school of magic, how can normal people trust them with freedom?

As of now, to mages, the templars are as bad as any darkspawn. And as for your question... this would only be relevant if the two subjects had anything to do with one another. Simply possessing magical knowledge should never be a crime to begin with, as it has no victims. Using it in a dangerous way may be, but as a rule, we try to avoid prosecuting people based solely on what they might do (regulation of magic in general is acceptable because mages may go abomination outside of their own will, so it would ideally be more trying to prevent a natural disaster than imprisoning mages themselves, but this goes too far).

Our systems of governance have created enough tyrants. A tyrant that can boil people alive with a tought is even worse.

All this means is that the tyrant will be slightly more skilled in personal combat, which may or may not mean anything when a lot of them are killed while vulnerable.

[TEWR]

It's not like Mages don't already practice sanctioned magic that screws with a person's mind now -- Horror, Disorient, etc -- and all you would really need to do is mass produce charms and enchantments that boost mental fortitude.

Also, it should be noted that as Merrill shows -- and as Avernus hints -- blood magic is useful in fighting the Taint in more then just killing the Darkspawn and helping society live better. A Mage in the comics -- which are canon -- will state that blood magic has applications that can help the world. 

Merrill and the Mage in the comics use blood magic to cleanse things of the Taint and assist in the well-being of the land/people respectively.

The name of the Mage was Fallstick. Strange name certainly, but this does show that blood magic isn't inherently evil. Should it be highly restricted in who uses it? I'd say so, as more often then not the person using the magic will use it maliciously, and it's only very rarely that you find good Mages that use it beneficially -- Adralla, Jowan, Merrill, Fallstick, etc.

It's not inherently evil nor is it inherently good. It simply is what it is. It's a tool, and like any tool you judge the person wielding it and not the tool itself.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 31 juillet 2012 - 02:14 .

[Dintonta]

And I have always thought that a spell like blood wound was much cleaner than a grenade or a fireball which can harm friends like foes... at least you know who you boil...

Modifié par Dintonta, 31 juillet 2012 - 02:05 .

[General User]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Blood magic is inherently dangerous. That is a fact.

No it isn't. It's not inherently evil nor is it inherently good. It simply is what it is. It's a tool, and like any tool you judge the person wielding it and not the tool itself.

Dangerous he said.  Not good or evil, but dangerous.  And yes, tools can be inherently dangerous.

Modifié par General User, 31 juillet 2012 - 02:08 .

[TEWR]

General User wrote...

Dangerous he said.  Not good or evil, but dangerous.  And yes, tools can be inherently dangerous.

Heh... you argue the same topic over the course of months and months and eventually you're reading comprehension skills deteriorate so much because you think people said -- or sometimes even meant -- something else.

So my bad.

At any rate, yea blood magic is inherently dangerous. That much is certainly true and I retract my statement in regards to his post -- so long as MisterJB means "dangerous" to simply mean "dangerous" and not also to mean "evil" as well.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 31 juillet 2012 - 02:15 .

[The Hierophant]

Xilizhra i think blood magic should remain forbidden under certain circumstances.(E.g. The Joining)
My main problem with blood magic is that the DA races especially the humans tend to be greedy, selfish, power hungry, sociopathic, douches who don't understand compromise or the term "middle ground". In short they are immature all around.

The mages should have their freedom though, but it should be conditional like 10-15 years of schooling leading up to graduation.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
Blood magic isn't an object or entity, any more than the skillset of an engineer or doctor. It's an ability to bring forth effects; those effects may be dangerous, depending on how they're used, but that's different.

Is a gun not dangerous? Would you place a gun in the hands of a child? of course not, you place it in the hands of a trained marine that can use it to protect you.
Magic is inherently dangerous. We've seen apprentices who caught themselves on fire because they couldn't control this basic spell. Blood magic is even more dangerous and hard to control and that is why you can't just let any mage learn it.

It's not all that hard to do this even without blood magic. Look at the Alienage orphanage, or the Brecilian Forest. In any case, the simple use of blood magic doesn't weaken the Veil; there's just a particular set of spells within the skillset of blood magic that do so.

The Veil is ruptured in place of great death or through blood magic. The association itself should be enough to make anyone wary of this type of magic.
All spells that can be performed exclusively through blood magic weaken the Veil. The alternative is to use blood magic only to power spells from other schools which doesn't weaken the Veil.

"Corrupting" would be if it there was an actual magical effect that decayed one's morality. There isn't. Blood magic doesn't summon demons or control minds, people summon demons or control minds. And even if blood magic is forbidden, it seems relatively easy to learn; it just ensures that the people who do learn it will tend to be ruthless criminals who do a lot more to protect their source of power.

It is a bit cliched but it applies here "Power corrupts".
Give someone, anyone, the ability to summon demons and control minds and there is a very good chance that person will summon demons and control minds.

It is relatively easy to acquire a gun. Should we just allow anyone to own one, then?

As of now, to mages, the templars are as bad as any darkspawn.

The mages are wrong.

And as for your question... this would only be relevant if the two subjects had anything to do with one another. Simply possessing magical knowledge should never be a crime to begin with, as it has no victims. Using it in a dangerous way may be, but as a rule, we try to avoid prosecuting people based solely on what they might do (regulation of magic in general is acceptable because mages may go abomination outside of their own will, so it would ideally be more trying to prevent a natural disaster than imprisoning mages themselves, but this goes too far).

Magic is not simply knowledge. It is a weapon and just like we don't allow just about anyone to own a tank, we can't just allow mages to live alongside normal people as if they are not ridiculously dangerous.
People fear mages and for a good reason. Mages disdain people, think themselves superior and, again, for a good reason.
Isolating a group of people based on what they might do is not right. It is, however, necessary.

All this means is that the tyrant will be slightly more skilled in personal combat, which may or may not mean anything when a lot of them are killed while vulnerable.

Saying that a mage is slightly more dangerous than a mundane is a gross understatement. Who do you want to fight, the guy with the knife or the guy with the tank?

Also, it is already easy for people in places of power to consider themselves above the common man. For a mage, it would be eve easier. And this can easily lead to tyranny.

Modifié par MisterJB, 31 juillet 2012 - 02:41 .

[DPSSOC]

MisterJB wrote...

"Corrupting" would be if it there was an actual magical effect that decayed one's morality. There isn't. Blood magic doesn't summon demons or control minds, people summon demons or control minds. And even if blood magic is forbidden, it seems relatively easy to learn; it just ensures that the people who do learn it will tend to be ruthless criminals who do a lot more to protect their source of power.

It is a bit cliched but it applies here "Power corrupts".
Give someone, anyone, the ability to summon demons and control minds and there is a very good chance that person will summon demons and control minds.

Not to mention blood magic has a much higher chance of leading to a complete dehumanization of people than regular magic.  When life is a fuel source people are merely batteries.  Yes I realize this is a slippery slope argument and I certainly don't hold it to be a certainty, but it is a possibility and one that we've seen, a lot.

[Xilizhra]

Is a gun not dangerous? Would you place a gun in the hands of a child? of course not, you place it in the hands of a trained marine that can use it to protect you.

It can also be placed in the hands of a normal adult to protect oneself.

Magic is inherently dangerous. We've seen apprentices who caught themselves on fire because they couldn't control this basic spell. Blood magic is even more dangerous and hard to control and that is why you can't just let any mage learn it.

Any? Perhaps not, but that's different from killing everyone who learns.

The Veil is ruptured in place of great death or through blood magic. The association itself should be enough to make anyone wary of this type of magic. All spells that can be performed exclusively through blood magic weaken the Veil. The alternative is to use blood magic only to power spells from other schools which doesn't weaken the Veil.

Through the focused effort of blood magic, not just blood magic in general. Note how the blood mage house in Denerim has no demons in it.

It is a bit cliched but it applies here "Power corrupts".
Give someone, anyone, the ability to summon demons and control minds and there is a very good chance that person will summon demons and control minds.

Give someone, anyone, a steak knife and there's a very good chance they'll start stabbing people in the face.
This doesn't follow.

It is relatively easy to acquire a gun. Should we just allow anyone to own one, then?

In most of the US, we pretty much do, assuming they're an adult and can pass a waiting period and a few other things.

The mages are wrong.

Hardly. The templars want them all dead or mindraped; if their aim was more moderate, they wouldn't have left the Chantry.

Magic is not simply knowledge. It is a weapon and just like we don't allow just about anyone to own a tank, we can't just allow mages to live alongside normal people as if they are not ridiculously dangerous.

A tank that they had no choice in possessing? Regulation is fine, but this manner of such goes too far, and the Chantry should never be involved.

People fear mages and for a good reason. Mages disdain people, think themselves superior and, again, for a good reason.
Isolating a group of people based on what they might do is not right. It is, however, necessary.

I don't consider those two things to possibly be able to conflict. If it isn't necessary, it isn't right. It's certainly not necessary or right to oppress mages in this exact manner.

Saying that a mage is slightly more dangerous than a mundane is a gross understatement. Who do you want to fight, the guy with the knife or the guy with the tank?

Am I a templar?

Also, it is already easy for people in places of power to consider themselves above the common man. For a mage, it would be eve easier. And this can easily lead to tyranny.

Easier still when there are enforced societal divisions and the mage has nothing to gain from association with nonmages.

[General User]

If you're looking for a RW analogy for magic in Dragon Age I think likening magic to cetain dangerous chemicals works as well as anything. Afterall, (much like magic) it is right an proper that the sale and use of dangerous materials be monitored, regulated, and (in general) only available to those who can demonstrate both a need for them, and the training to handle them safely.

[Xilizhra]

General User wrote...

If you're looking for a RW analogy for magic in Dragon Age I think likening magic to cetain dangerous chemicals works as well as anything. Afterall, (much like magic) it is right an proper that the sale and use of dangerous materials be monitored, regulated, and (in general) only available to those who can demonstrate both a need for them, and the training to handle them safely.

Quite frankly, it seems like the Circle should have a lot more tests of morality along with the purely academic stuff they do already, but this seems to be wholly absent. Another thing we can introduce once the templars have been wiped out.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

General User wrote...

If you're looking for a RW analogy for magic in Dragon Age I think likening magic to cetain dangerous chemicals works as well as anything. Afterall, (much like magic) it is right an proper that the sale and use of dangerous materials be monitored, regulated, and (in general) only available to those who can demonstrate both a need for them, and the training to handle them safely.

Quite frankly, it seems like the Circle should have a lot more tests of morality along with the purely academic stuff they do already, but this seems to be wholly absent. Another thing we can introduce once the templars have been wiped out.

I don't follow.

[MisterJB]

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...
It can also be placed in the hands of a normal adult to protect oneself. [/quote]
An untrained adult with a gun in hand is a danger to himself and everyone around him.

[quote]Any? Perhaps not, but that's different from killing everyone who learns. [/quote]
Learning blood magic is a choice and the templars have made it perfectly clear they can't and won't tolerate it. By using blood magic, you knew what you were getting yourself into and the punishment is just.

On the other hand, there are good uses to blood magic that can't be ignored and that is why a select few mages could learn it under templar supervision.

[quote]
Through the focused effort of blood magic, not just blood magic in general. Note how the blood mage house in Denerim has no demons in it.[/quote]
Probrably because they have erected magical protection to keep them out or something similar.

[quote]
Give someone, anyone, a steak knife and there's a very good chance they'll start stabbing people in the face.
This doesn't follow. [/quote]
How many people in history obtained power because they had a sword and convinced many more people who also had swords to follow them?
And magic is much more dangerous.

[quote]In most of the US, we pretty much do, assuming they're an adult and can pass a waiting period and a few other things. [/quote]
I'm against it. But at least, people are not born with guns that can't be removed from them.

[quote]Hardly. The templars want them all dead or mindraped; if their aim was more moderate, they wouldn't have left the Chantry. [/quote]
Not all have left the Chantry. Protecting mages from people who would kill them all is something most templars would agree with. Some because they are moderate, others simply because mages are a valuable resources.
The mages are to blame for this senseless war.

[quote]A tank that they had no choice in possessing?[/quote]
I feel bad for mages who must be isolated for being who they are but there is no other way.

[quote]Regulation is fine, but this manner of such goes too far,[/quote]
The Circle could afford some changes but I suspect we will disagree on just how much.

[quote]and the Chantry should never be involved. [/quote]
If not the Chantry, then who? Kings and queens? They will happily feed peasants to blood mages to support their wars of conquest.
The Chantry can go too far sometimes but at least the only ones who suffer are the mages, which are a minority.

[quote]
I don't consider those two things to possibly be able to conflict. If it isn't necessary, it isn't right. It's certainly not necessary or right to oppress mages in this exact manner.[/quote]
What manner? Isolate them in a tower? Because that is absolutely necessary.
At best, parental visits could be allowed as well as escorted visits to nearby cities.
Letting a mage live without templar oversight is going too far.

[quote]Am I a templar? [/quote]
Not everyone is a templar. And it's not feasible to expect every single person in Thedas to learn how to defend themselves from magic.

[quote]
Easier still when there are enforced societal divisions and the mage has nothing to gain from association with nonmages.[/quote]
Because people with freedom can never be greedy or power hungry and act without regards for others.

[Xilizhra]

An untrained adult with a gun in hand is a danger to himself and everyone around him.

So the goalposts have been moved now from blood magic being bad to untrained blood magic being bad. Good, we agree.

Learning blood magic is a choice and the templars have made it perfectly clear they can't and won't tolerate it. By using blood magic, you knew what you were getting yourself into and the punishment is just.

Just because a law is publicly declared doesn't make it just in the slightest.

On the other hand, there are good uses to blood magic that can't be ignored and that is why a select few mages could learn it under templar supervision.

Absolutely nothing of the Order may be allowed to exist. A different order of guardians can arise, but there can be no more templars once this is over.

Probrably because they have erected magical protection to keep them out or something similar.

Ah, so magic can strengthen the Veil too, then? How useful, and how eliminating of that problem of blood magic.

How many people in history obtained power because they had a sword and convinced many more people who also had swords to follow them?
And magic is much more dangerous.

Did that follow my previous statement?

I feel bad for mages who must be isolated for being who they are but there is no other way.

There are several other ways, you just don't like any.

Not all have left the Chantry. Protecting mages from people who would kill them all is something most templars would agree with. Some because they are moderate, others simply because mages are a valuable resources.
The mages are to blame for this senseless war.

The mages only seceded from the Chantry. It was the templars who began murdering them and the templars who have initiated all oppression from their very founding. The Order is a monster and it will be put down as one.

If not the Chantry, then who? Kings and queens? They will happily feed peasants to blood mages to support their wars of conquest.
The Chantry can go too far sometimes but at least the only ones who suffer are the mages, which are a minority.

An independent organization of mages and their guardians that can stand against heads of state as equals in power, though with different spheres of authority.

What manner? Isolate them in a tower? Because that is absolutely necessary.
At best, parental visits could be allowed as well as escorted visits to nearby cities.
Letting a mage live without templar oversight is going too far.

Supervised enclaves within cities seem far from impossible to achieve, for those so inclined to live within them. Perhaps only after being trained, but still.

Not everyone is a templar. And it's not feasible to expect every single person in Thedas to learn how to defend themselves from magic.

It is feasible, however, for those in charge of defending them to learn how to defend them from magic.

[MisterJB]

Xilizhra wrote...
So the goalposts have been moved now from blood magic being bad to untrained blood magic being bad.

I have never denied blood magic can be useful even if it is dangerous.

Just because a law is publicly declared doesn't make it just in the slightest.

This one is just and necessary.

Absolutely nothing of the Order may be allowed to exist. A different order of guardians can arise, but there can be no more templars once this is over.

Wonderful idea, let's destroy the order especially trained to protect everyone from the dangers of magic. Also, let's do the same for the Grey Wardens. After all, they do whatever is necessary to stop the Blights, including burning cities and killing innocents. This is what we should be trying to safeguard ourselves against. Not, you know, magic and darkspawn.
I'm sure nothing can go wrong.

What is the point? Any order of guardians will, invariably, require the use of abilities to dispell magic which the templars already use.
We could use more templars like Thrask or Gregoir but that is about it.

Ah, so magic can strengthen the Veil too, then? How useful, and how eliminating of that problem of blood magic.

No, magic can be used to prevent demons from entering or leaving somewhere like Avernus did. However, that particular spell did nothing for the Veil.
There are ways to strengthen the Veil but I have a better idea. Don't make it weak in the first place, forbid blood magic and punish those who perform it.

Did that follow my previous statement?

My original statement was that power corrupts and mages have too much of it.
You argued that a knife gives someone power over an unarmed person but not everyone uses this.
I then argued that many do, in fact, arm themselves to have power over others and that magic is the most dangerous weapon of all and you can't even disarm it unlike with a knife.

There are several other ways, you just don't like any.

And I don't like any because they are not efficient.

The mages only seceded from the Chantry. It was the templars who began murdering them and the templars who have initiated all oppression from their very founding. The Order is a monster and it will be put down as one.

The Order has protected everyone, mages and mundanes alike, from the dangers of magic for centuries. Sometimes, some templars go too far and these must be punished but that is it.
This war, however, was started by the mages who should not have seceded from the Chantry in the first place. If they don't take into account the harm they inflict upon the majority, then they don't deserve freedom.

An independent organization of mages and their guardians that can stand against heads of state as equals in power, though with different spheres of authority.

So, basically, the Circle.

Supervised enclaves within cities seem far from impossible to achieve, for those so inclined to live within them. Perhaps only after being trained, but still.

The Circle is a supervised enclave. The fact that it exists outside the city just makes it safer.

It is feasible, however, for those in charge of defending them to learn how to defend them from magic.

They are called Templars

Modifié par MisterJB, 31 juillet 2012 - 04:02 .

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

Wonderful idea, let's destroy the order especially trained to protect everyone from the dangers of magic. Also, let's do the same for the Grey Wardens. After all, they do whatever is necessary to stop the Blights, including burning cities and killing innocents. This is what we should be trying to safeguard ourselves against. Not, you know, magic and darkspawn.
I'm sure nothing can go wrong.

What is the point? Any order of guardians will, invariably, require the use of abilities to dispell magic which the templars already use.
We could use more templars like Thrask or Gregoir but that is about it.

I think what Xilizhra meant was that any vestiges of the current Order's incarnation -- drug addled religious zealots -- needs to be destroyed. Not the Templar Order as an idea to strive for, where people serve as protector to both Mage and non-mage. There are a lot of flaws in the current Templar Order's incarnation, and I think that's what Xilizhra was getting at. So long as any flaw of the current system remains, it's not acceptable.

But I'm not sure.

I'd say that one of the first steps to more effective ways to kill malicious mages and Abominations is to introduce Spirit Warrior training alongside the Templar training, thereby making both more effective.

Of course, this would require the Chantry and the Templars to not only acknowledge that both schools of discipline are forms of magic, but also showing no bias towards either -- as the Templars and Chantry are inclined to do.

I would post more on how I'd reform the Circle, but.... meh, not right now.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 31 juillet 2012 - 04:12 .

[Xilizhra]

This one is just and necessary.

It is neither.

Wonderful idea, let's destroy the order especially trained to protect everyone from the dangers of magic. Also, let's do the same for the Grey Wardens. After all, they do whatever is necessary to stop the Blights, including burning cities and killing innocents. This is what we should be trying to safeguard ourselves against. Not, you know, magic and darkspawn.
I'm sure nothing can go wrong.

The idea of regulation doesn't necessitate amoral drug-addled religious zealots to do it. The Templar Order cannot be allowed to remain. Others may do a similar job, better, but it won't be the same.
(Also, my Grey Warden has never done either, unless you consider darkspawn innocent by virtue of not possessing free will)

No, magic can be used to prevent demons from entering or leaving somewhere like Avernus did. However, that particular spell did nothing for the Veil.
There are ways to strengthen the Veil but I have a better idea. Don't make it weak in the first place, forbid blood magic and punish those who perform it.

Or just come up with ways to fix side effects instead of banning something from being used because of that.

My original statement was that power corrupts and mages have too much of it.
You argued that a knife gives someone power over an unarmed person but not everyone uses this.
I then argued that many do, in fact, arm themselves to have power over others and that magic is the most dangerous weapon of all and you can't even disarm it unlike with a knife.

Actually, you can disarm it. It requires certain skills, but so does disarming a knife.

The Order has protected everyone, mages and mundanes alike, from the dangers of magic for centuries. Sometimes, some templars go too far and these must be punished but that is it.
This war, however, was started by the mages who should not have seceded from the Chantry in the first place. If they don't take into account the harm they inflict upon the majority, then they don't deserve freedom.

The entire Order exists on the far side of a moral event horizon and always has. It must be destroyed. If any innocents are harmed in the process, well, the templars have been harming innocents for almost a thousand years and I don't see why they'd care to stop now.

So, basically, the Circle.

The Circle is enslaved by the Chantry, so no.

The Circle is a supervised enclave. The fact that it exists outside the city just makes it safer.

It doesn't let mages outside enough.

They are called Templars

A sick and pathetic excuse of what this should be.