Modifié par punkgamer01, 27 juillet 2012 - 07:16 .
what's better for a rogue : Vendetta or Assassinate ?
Débuté par
punkgamer01
, juil. 27 2012 07:15
#1
Posté 27 juillet 2012 - 07:15
punkgamer01
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just wanted to know if vendetta is better that assassinate in term of maximum damage, even with or without CCC.
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#3
Posté 27 juillet 2012 - 07:39
punkgamer01
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thanks =) but how ? i tough vedetta was dealing is damage direct trough the armor when upgrade with blood feud ?
plus, i think vendetta is like 300% damage against stagger ? does not that like make assassinate less powerful, in theorie.
i never understand how assasinate can be more powerful than vendetta, vendetta bypass armor plus, it has a CCC of 300% compared to 200% from assassinate.
note : i play version 1.04 of the game.
edit : i checked, in addition to 300% vs staggered target, it reduce damage resistance to 0% for the duration of the attack, if we add an upgraded lacerate, does not that make upgraded vendetta better ?
plus, i think vendetta is like 300% damage against stagger ? does not that like make assassinate less powerful, in theorie.
i never understand how assasinate can be more powerful than vendetta, vendetta bypass armor plus, it has a CCC of 300% compared to 200% from assassinate.
note : i play version 1.04 of the game.
edit : i checked, in addition to 300% vs staggered target, it reduce damage resistance to 0% for the duration of the attack, if we add an upgraded lacerate, does not that make upgraded vendetta better ?
Modifié par punkgamer01, 27 juillet 2012 - 07:42 .
#4
Posté 28 juillet 2012 - 05:39
Arthur Cousland
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Is assassinate better? With my archer, assassinate's damage is pathetic compared to archer's lance, and I don't usually bother picking up assassinate, as I don't notice any damage spike when using it on brittle enemies. At least vendetta lets the rogue "teleport" to the enemy's location, which can be handy.
#5
Posté 29 juillet 2012 - 05:50
ripstrawberry
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"thanks =) but how ? i tough vedetta was dealing is damage direct trough the armor when upgrade with blood feud ?"
This is because assassinate has a higher base dmg and a higher dmg upgrade than vendetta. Furthermore, an assassinate user can circumvent armor by using an elemental weapon. In fact, the best way to deal dmg in this game is to use elemental weapons. Physical is the worst element.
"plus, i think vendetta is like 300% damage against stagger ? does not that like make assassinate less powerful, in theorie."
You're again forgetting the humongous base dmg of assassinate advantage over vendetta. You're also forgetting that the brittle condition increases your crit dmg by 25%. You're also ignoring the fact that assassinate will always crit,even against enemies that are immune to crit. Of course for archers, vendetta's teleport effect is useless. Assassinate can also take advantage of mark of death/hex of torment unlike vendetta. Assassinate also provides a defensive benefit of sorts to boot.
"edit : i checked, in addition to 300% vs staggered target, it reduce damage resistance to 0% for the duration of the attack, if we add an upgraded lacerate, does not that make upgraded vendetta better ?"
Yes it sets it at 0% which makes mark of death/hex of torment pointless for that attack.
"Is assassinate better? With my archer, assassinate's damage is pathetic compared to archer's lance, and I don't usually bother picking up assassinate, as I don't notice any damage spike when using it on brittle enemies. At least vendetta lets the rogue "teleport" to the enemy's location, which can be handy."
You will notice a difference as your dmg gets higher. Assassinate is the highest spike dmg talent in one hit in the game. My assassinate on my archer deals higher dmg than archer's lance. Are you making that statement based on grunts. Archer's lance dmg might be higher on grunts because it has an auto-kill effect vs grunts. The vendetta's teleport option is not good for archers. However, agreed it's very handy for dual wielders. This can be easily duplicated though with back to back or upgraded rush. Shadow and Assassin are the best specs for the rogue. The only useful skill on duelist is vendetta. Assassins have their spec bonus, assassinate, mark of death and the 2 passives. Shadow (arguably the best rogue spec) has the ever useful decoy, shadow veil, pinpoint precision and the situationally useful inconspicuous. Archer's lance is unwieldy at times as well.
This is because assassinate has a higher base dmg and a higher dmg upgrade than vendetta. Furthermore, an assassinate user can circumvent armor by using an elemental weapon. In fact, the best way to deal dmg in this game is to use elemental weapons. Physical is the worst element.
"plus, i think vendetta is like 300% damage against stagger ? does not that like make assassinate less powerful, in theorie."
You're again forgetting the humongous base dmg of assassinate advantage over vendetta. You're also forgetting that the brittle condition increases your crit dmg by 25%. You're also ignoring the fact that assassinate will always crit,even against enemies that are immune to crit. Of course for archers, vendetta's teleport effect is useless. Assassinate can also take advantage of mark of death/hex of torment unlike vendetta. Assassinate also provides a defensive benefit of sorts to boot.
"edit : i checked, in addition to 300% vs staggered target, it reduce damage resistance to 0% for the duration of the attack, if we add an upgraded lacerate, does not that make upgraded vendetta better ?"
Yes it sets it at 0% which makes mark of death/hex of torment pointless for that attack.
"Is assassinate better? With my archer, assassinate's damage is pathetic compared to archer's lance, and I don't usually bother picking up assassinate, as I don't notice any damage spike when using it on brittle enemies. At least vendetta lets the rogue "teleport" to the enemy's location, which can be handy."
You will notice a difference as your dmg gets higher. Assassinate is the highest spike dmg talent in one hit in the game. My assassinate on my archer deals higher dmg than archer's lance. Are you making that statement based on grunts. Archer's lance dmg might be higher on grunts because it has an auto-kill effect vs grunts. The vendetta's teleport option is not good for archers. However, agreed it's very handy for dual wielders. This can be easily duplicated though with back to back or upgraded rush. Shadow and Assassin are the best specs for the rogue. The only useful skill on duelist is vendetta. Assassins have their spec bonus, assassinate, mark of death and the 2 passives. Shadow (arguably the best rogue spec) has the ever useful decoy, shadow veil, pinpoint precision and the situationally useful inconspicuous. Archer's lance is unwieldy at times as well.
#6
Posté 29 juillet 2012 - 01:07
Arthur Cousland
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I'll have Anders cast petrify on elites and bosses, and my archer will use archer's lance when they're brittle. I've used both archer's lance and assassinate, and assassinate doesn't seem to do much more damage than a regular attack, while I do notice a chunk taken from the enemy's health when using archer's lance. I've used both against elites/bosses and assassinate's damage is underwhelming.
I guess it all comes down to whether your party setup favors brittle or stagger ccc. Vendetta for stagger, and assassinate for brittle.
I agree that vendetta isn't a good choice for archers, as they're supposed to be attacking from range. It is a very useful ability for dual wield rogues, however.
I guess it all comes down to whether your party setup favors brittle or stagger ccc. Vendetta for stagger, and assassinate for brittle.
I agree that vendetta isn't a good choice for archers, as they're supposed to be attacking from range. It is a very useful ability for dual wield rogues, however.
#7
Posté 30 juillet 2012 - 07:14
ripstrawberry
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"I'll have Anders cast petrify on elites and bosses, and my archer will use archer's lance when they're brittle. I've used both archer's lance and assassinate, and assassinate doesn't seem to do much more damage than a regular attack, while I do notice a chunk taken from the enemy's health when using archer's lance. I've used both against elites/bosses and assassinate's damage is underwhelming."
Ah I see where we have a misunderstanding. In my statement, the enemy is not brittle. Of course against a brittle enemy, archer's lance will do more than assassinate because it has x6 multiplier compared to assassinate's x2 and higher base dmg. Agains't non-brittle enemies, assassinate will do higher. Against mark of deathed/hex of tormented enemies, assasinate will do higher.
"I guess it all comes down to whether your party setup favors brittle or stagger ccc. Vendetta for stagger, and assassinate for brittle."
Brittle is better due to the crit dmg bonus. You're also forgetting the massive dps bonuses you're foregoing (spec bonus, mark of death and devious harm) by choosing duelist over assassin.
"I agree that vendetta isn't a good choice for archers, as they're supposed to be attacking from range. It is a very useful ability for dual wield rogues, however."
It is very useful but is 1 nifty skill worth alot of better skills + spec bonus when replacements are available (back to back and rush)? Not in my book. What's more, vendetta caters to a physical dual wielding rogue build. It's general knowledge that elemental builds are superior damage wise.
Ah I see where we have a misunderstanding. In my statement, the enemy is not brittle. Of course against a brittle enemy, archer's lance will do more than assassinate because it has x6 multiplier compared to assassinate's x2 and higher base dmg. Agains't non-brittle enemies, assassinate will do higher. Against mark of deathed/hex of tormented enemies, assasinate will do higher.
"I guess it all comes down to whether your party setup favors brittle or stagger ccc. Vendetta for stagger, and assassinate for brittle."
Brittle is better due to the crit dmg bonus. You're also forgetting the massive dps bonuses you're foregoing (spec bonus, mark of death and devious harm) by choosing duelist over assassin.
"I agree that vendetta isn't a good choice for archers, as they're supposed to be attacking from range. It is a very useful ability for dual wield rogues, however."
It is very useful but is 1 nifty skill worth alot of better skills + spec bonus when replacements are available (back to back and rush)? Not in my book. What's more, vendetta caters to a physical dual wielding rogue build. It's general knowledge that elemental builds are superior damage wise.
#8
Posté 03 août 2012 - 04:23
mr_afk
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I think you should include lacerate into the post-patch assassinate/vendetta comparison.
With lacerate, vendetta stagger CCCs deal 6x damage.
Based on the stats from the wikia,
Vendetta non-CCC:
5.5*base damage
Assassinate non-CCC:
11*base damage
Vendetta Stagger CCC (with lacerate):
5.5*base damage*3*2 = 33*base damage (ignoring armour/damage resist)
Assassinate Brittle CCC:
11*base damage*2 = 22*base damage
Assassinate + Lacerate Stagger CCC:
11*base damage*2 = 22*base damage
Assassinate Brittle CCC + Lacerate:
11*base damage*2*2 = 44*base damage
So as you can see, the assassinate non-CCC is the highest non-CCC ability out there (relevant for soloing or party setups without staggers/brittles), the vendetta stagger CCC + lacerate is the most reliable way to get maximal damage, and the assassinate brittle CCC + lacerate is the highest possible damage, but requires a fair amount of luck.
There are a few other factors to consider, but they're not that important.
Splitting the damage with lacerate ensures that more damage can circumvent the damage cap. Assassinate may have problems in this regards.
Brittle has an innate +50% crit damage associated with it (but given the high levels of crit damage that rogues have (e.g. 300%), the extra 50% won't be that significant).
Vendetta isn't affected by debuffing (-ve damage resistance), but damage caps etc will probably be the limiting factor anyway.
I also haven't included crit damage and other modifiers, which may alter things to an extent (I forget where they fit into the damage formula and cbf checking).
On a side note,
(Fully charged) Explosive strike Stagger CCC + Lacerate:
5.9*base damage*3*2= 35.4*base damage
This is in fact more than a vendetta CCC (ignoring damage resist/armour) and is probably the most powerful CCC behind that rare lacerate + assassinate brittle CCC.
With lacerate, vendetta stagger CCCs deal 6x damage.
Based on the stats from the wikia,
Vendetta non-CCC:
5.5*base damage
Assassinate non-CCC:
11*base damage
Vendetta Stagger CCC (with lacerate):
5.5*base damage*3*2 = 33*base damage (ignoring armour/damage resist)
Assassinate Brittle CCC:
11*base damage*2 = 22*base damage
Assassinate + Lacerate Stagger CCC:
11*base damage*2 = 22*base damage
Assassinate Brittle CCC + Lacerate:
11*base damage*2*2 = 44*base damage
So as you can see, the assassinate non-CCC is the highest non-CCC ability out there (relevant for soloing or party setups without staggers/brittles), the vendetta stagger CCC + lacerate is the most reliable way to get maximal damage, and the assassinate brittle CCC + lacerate is the highest possible damage, but requires a fair amount of luck.
There are a few other factors to consider, but they're not that important.
Splitting the damage with lacerate ensures that more damage can circumvent the damage cap. Assassinate may have problems in this regards.
Brittle has an innate +50% crit damage associated with it (but given the high levels of crit damage that rogues have (e.g. 300%), the extra 50% won't be that significant).
Vendetta isn't affected by debuffing (-ve damage resistance), but damage caps etc will probably be the limiting factor anyway.
I also haven't included crit damage and other modifiers, which may alter things to an extent (I forget where they fit into the damage formula and cbf checking).
On a side note,
(Fully charged) Explosive strike Stagger CCC + Lacerate:
5.9*base damage*3*2= 35.4*base damage
This is in fact more than a vendetta CCC (ignoring damage resist/armour) and is probably the most powerful CCC behind that rare lacerate + assassinate brittle CCC.
#9
Posté 03 août 2012 - 07:26
ripstrawberry
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"So as you can see, the assassinate non-CCC is the highest non-CCC ability out there (relevant for soloing or party setups without staggers/brittles), the vendetta stagger CCC + lacerate is the most reliable way to get maximal damage, and the assassinate brittle CCC + lacerate is the highest possible damage, but requires a fair amount of luck."
Why would assassinate brittle CCC + lacerate require a fair amount of luck? I've set that up manually/by tactics reliably in the past when I used to play with a party. Your computations also fail to take into account the assassin spec bonus, devious harm and mark of death (though admittedly mark of deaths' effects will be different among different enemies so it's hard to factor in). I guess what I'm trying to say is vendetta may be better than assassinate in certain circumstances but once a person takes into account the other bonuses assassin gives and the crappy selection duelist provides it's hard to make an argument to say duelist is better than assassin for DW. That's already impossible to make for archers. Agreed though that vendetta CCC is easier to activate.
"There are a few other factors to consider, but they're not that important."
As I've indicated above, they're important, It's more dmg. It's more chances to knockback/elemental force effect a target. The difference is felt more in the higher levels or in a level 50 game.
"Assassinate may have problems in this regards."
Why would assassinate have problems splitting dmg in this regards for DW? While the dmg cap hinders archers who use assassinate, DW have no such problem unless I'm missing something.
"Brittle has an innate +50% crit damage associated with it (but given the high levels of crit damage that rogues have (e.g. 300%), the extra 50% won't be that significant)."
As I've said it's still more dmg. It's also a little bit more CC. Isn't that the point of this discussion? Which skill is better at dealing dmg? Unless we're factoring in defensive benefits or something else.
"I also haven't included crit damage and other modifiers, which may alter things to an extent (I forget where they fit into the damage formula and cbf checking)."
Crit dmg is added at the start IIRC before elemental dmg modifiers, general dmg modifiers, etc.
Why would assassinate brittle CCC + lacerate require a fair amount of luck? I've set that up manually/by tactics reliably in the past when I used to play with a party. Your computations also fail to take into account the assassin spec bonus, devious harm and mark of death (though admittedly mark of deaths' effects will be different among different enemies so it's hard to factor in). I guess what I'm trying to say is vendetta may be better than assassinate in certain circumstances but once a person takes into account the other bonuses assassin gives and the crappy selection duelist provides it's hard to make an argument to say duelist is better than assassin for DW. That's already impossible to make for archers. Agreed though that vendetta CCC is easier to activate.
"There are a few other factors to consider, but they're not that important."
As I've indicated above, they're important, It's more dmg. It's more chances to knockback/elemental force effect a target. The difference is felt more in the higher levels or in a level 50 game.
"Assassinate may have problems in this regards."
Why would assassinate have problems splitting dmg in this regards for DW? While the dmg cap hinders archers who use assassinate, DW have no such problem unless I'm missing something.
"Brittle has an innate +50% crit damage associated with it (but given the high levels of crit damage that rogues have (e.g. 300%), the extra 50% won't be that significant)."
As I've said it's still more dmg. It's also a little bit more CC. Isn't that the point of this discussion? Which skill is better at dealing dmg? Unless we're factoring in defensive benefits or something else.
"I also haven't included crit damage and other modifiers, which may alter things to an extent (I forget where they fit into the damage formula and cbf checking)."
Crit dmg is added at the start IIRC before elemental dmg modifiers, general dmg modifiers, etc.
#10
Posté 03 août 2012 - 08:10
mr_afk
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Without a stagger, lacerate only has a 10% chance to trigger (and double the damage).
So unless you're particularly lucky, your brittle assassinate CCCs will be doing less damage than stagger vendetta CCCs, since the lacerate is guaranteed to trigger.
If you're not playing at level 50, the largest challenge you'll encounter is the damage cap.
No matter how many buffs and debuffs you've got going, the maximum an assassinate CCC is going to deal is 80%. Using lacerate allows you to potentially deal 160% damage, completely bypassing the cap and allowing you to one-shot bosses.
This means that the vendetta CCC not only deals more damage but more of the damage gets through to the enemy.
Anyway, we're comparing assassinate and vendetta, not the assassin spec and duelist spec. All I was saying was that vendetta CCCs will typically deal more damage than assassinate CCCs (outside that one in ten chance), so the answer to the OP isn't quite as clear-cut as you make it.
But if we are to compare assassin and duelist, we should compare staggers to brittles.
Staggers are a lot more reliable to trigger (since pommel strike/shield bash have a 100% chance of staggering). Additionally, lacerate affects all damage you deal to staggered enemies, making explosive strikes and twin fangs more than adequate for your spike damage needs.
This means that placing a heavier emphasis on staggers rather than brittles may be more efficient overall. By focusing on lacerate, early game setups such as the shadow/duelist may be more effective than the shadow/assassin, since you aren't missing out on that much extra crit damage and debuffs aren't really that necessary when you one-shot things already.
Even in end-game setups, it may be beneficial to sacrifice the +100% crit damage, disorients, and threat management from the shadow spec and use the duelist/assassin.
So in other words, it isn't required to take into account the assassin spec bonuses - and with the post-patch damage caps, stagger lacerate CCCs are where it's at.
So unless you're particularly lucky, your brittle assassinate CCCs will be doing less damage than stagger vendetta CCCs, since the lacerate is guaranteed to trigger.
If you're not playing at level 50, the largest challenge you'll encounter is the damage cap.
No matter how many buffs and debuffs you've got going, the maximum an assassinate CCC is going to deal is 80%. Using lacerate allows you to potentially deal 160% damage, completely bypassing the cap and allowing you to one-shot bosses.
This means that the vendetta CCC not only deals more damage but more of the damage gets through to the enemy.
Anyway, we're comparing assassinate and vendetta, not the assassin spec and duelist spec. All I was saying was that vendetta CCCs will typically deal more damage than assassinate CCCs (outside that one in ten chance), so the answer to the OP isn't quite as clear-cut as you make it.
But if we are to compare assassin and duelist, we should compare staggers to brittles.
Staggers are a lot more reliable to trigger (since pommel strike/shield bash have a 100% chance of staggering). Additionally, lacerate affects all damage you deal to staggered enemies, making explosive strikes and twin fangs more than adequate for your spike damage needs.
This means that placing a heavier emphasis on staggers rather than brittles may be more efficient overall. By focusing on lacerate, early game setups such as the shadow/duelist may be more effective than the shadow/assassin, since you aren't missing out on that much extra crit damage and debuffs aren't really that necessary when you one-shot things already.
Even in end-game setups, it may be beneficial to sacrifice the +100% crit damage, disorients, and threat management from the shadow spec and use the duelist/assassin.
So in other words, it isn't required to take into account the assassin spec bonuses - and with the post-patch damage caps, stagger lacerate CCCs are where it's at.
Modifié par mr_afk, 03 août 2012 - 08:13 .
#11
Posté 03 août 2012 - 09:54
ripstrawberry
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"So unless you're particularly lucky, your brittle assassinate CCCs will be doing less damage than stagger vendetta CCCs, since the lacerate is guaranteed to trigger."
Oh I get what you mean now by lucky. My bad. I guess i'm lucky enough that I made it happen often enough back then. I was also beginning to wonder if a target can be staggered and brittled at the same time. Been awhile since I played with a party. I generally stick to solo nightmare runs now
"If you're not playing at level 50, the largest challenge you'll encounter is the damage cap. "
Actually at 50 the damage cap still sucks. Especially for my archer.
"Anyway, we're comparing assassinate and vendetta, not the assassin spec and duelist spec. All I was saying was that vendetta CCCs will typically deal more damage than assassinate CCCs (outside that one in ten chance), so the answer to the OP isn't quite as clear-cut as you make it."
Got it. So I guess the correct answer now for DW in a party is if you're not hitting the dmg cap, assassin will be better due to the various dmg bonuses it provides. If you're hitting the dmg cap already then duelist may be better. In line with this, correct me if I'm wrong, when soloing assassin still wins out over duelist for DW even if you're hitting the dmg cap because the chance for lacerate to trigger is the same regardless if you use assassinate or vendetta (the other duelist stuff is crap)?
"This means that placing a heavier emphasis on staggers rather than brittles may be more efficient overall. By focusing on lacerate, early game setups such as the shadow/duelist may be more effective than the shadow/assassin, since you aren't missing out on that much extra crit damage and debuffs aren't really that necessary when you one-shot things already."
I get your point here. I guess it's because I primarily play on nightmare and at most I only have 1 melee party member. If I'm DW, I skip aveline and bring merrill, anders and varric/bethany. So I pretty much focus on disorients and brittles. When I do bring aveline, I'm usually an archer with merill/bethany and anders. So the staggers aren't as useful except for chain lightning. On another note, I don't find pommel strike a reliable source of stagger unlike shield bash/devour because it only staggers on a stun. Quite a number of enemies that you want to stagger are immune to stun.
"Even in end-game setups, it may be beneficial to sacrifice the +100% crit damage, disorients, and threat management from the shadow spec and use the duelist/assassin."
Well since I solo, i'll have to disagree with this. Shadow is my #1 spec. If I party, my party CCC'ing revolves around the disorients because I can cause it consistently against every target unlike staggers/brittles. My 3 other party members can easily take advantage of it. I can see an argument for a DW shadow duelist for a party when you hit the dmg cap but it's hard to see why assassin should replace shadow. The extra crit dmg provided by assassin's spec and devious harm is EQUALLED by pinpoint precision and disorienting criticals. You lose the spike dmg talent and debuff but you have the ability to make your party members use their spike dmg talents more often along with the nice bonus of making sure their auto-attacks hit against every target you've been targeting. And you've got a temp party tank in decoy to boot which is assisted by inconspicuous.
Way I see it: shadow>assassin>duelist. Both for soloing and partying.
"So in other words, it isn't required to take into account the assassin spec bonuses - and with the post-patch damage caps, stagger lacerate CCCs are where it's at."
Good points all around regarding how to circumvent the dmg caps with vendetta + lacerate. Nice food for thought for those DWs who don't play nightmare or play nightmare carefully w/ aveline.
Oh I get what you mean now by lucky. My bad. I guess i'm lucky enough that I made it happen often enough back then. I was also beginning to wonder if a target can be staggered and brittled at the same time. Been awhile since I played with a party. I generally stick to solo nightmare runs now
"If you're not playing at level 50, the largest challenge you'll encounter is the damage cap. "
Actually at 50 the damage cap still sucks. Especially for my archer.
"Anyway, we're comparing assassinate and vendetta, not the assassin spec and duelist spec. All I was saying was that vendetta CCCs will typically deal more damage than assassinate CCCs (outside that one in ten chance), so the answer to the OP isn't quite as clear-cut as you make it."
Got it. So I guess the correct answer now for DW in a party is if you're not hitting the dmg cap, assassin will be better due to the various dmg bonuses it provides. If you're hitting the dmg cap already then duelist may be better. In line with this, correct me if I'm wrong, when soloing assassin still wins out over duelist for DW even if you're hitting the dmg cap because the chance for lacerate to trigger is the same regardless if you use assassinate or vendetta (the other duelist stuff is crap)?
"This means that placing a heavier emphasis on staggers rather than brittles may be more efficient overall. By focusing on lacerate, early game setups such as the shadow/duelist may be more effective than the shadow/assassin, since you aren't missing out on that much extra crit damage and debuffs aren't really that necessary when you one-shot things already."
I get your point here. I guess it's because I primarily play on nightmare and at most I only have 1 melee party member. If I'm DW, I skip aveline and bring merrill, anders and varric/bethany. So I pretty much focus on disorients and brittles. When I do bring aveline, I'm usually an archer with merill/bethany and anders. So the staggers aren't as useful except for chain lightning. On another note, I don't find pommel strike a reliable source of stagger unlike shield bash/devour because it only staggers on a stun. Quite a number of enemies that you want to stagger are immune to stun.
"Even in end-game setups, it may be beneficial to sacrifice the +100% crit damage, disorients, and threat management from the shadow spec and use the duelist/assassin."
Well since I solo, i'll have to disagree with this. Shadow is my #1 spec. If I party, my party CCC'ing revolves around the disorients because I can cause it consistently against every target unlike staggers/brittles. My 3 other party members can easily take advantage of it. I can see an argument for a DW shadow duelist for a party when you hit the dmg cap but it's hard to see why assassin should replace shadow. The extra crit dmg provided by assassin's spec and devious harm is EQUALLED by pinpoint precision and disorienting criticals. You lose the spike dmg talent and debuff but you have the ability to make your party members use their spike dmg talents more often along with the nice bonus of making sure their auto-attacks hit against every target you've been targeting. And you've got a temp party tank in decoy to boot which is assisted by inconspicuous.
Way I see it: shadow>assassin>duelist. Both for soloing and partying.
"So in other words, it isn't required to take into account the assassin spec bonuses - and with the post-patch damage caps, stagger lacerate CCCs are where it's at."
Good points all around regarding how to circumvent the dmg caps with vendetta + lacerate. Nice food for thought for those DWs who don't play nightmare or play nightmare carefully w/ aveline.
#12
Posté 04 août 2012 - 03:48
mr_afk
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Yeah, I haven't played DA2 for a long time - I just remember running the numbers etc and one-shotting things with my melee setup I did a guide for. If you're soloing, CCCs become irrelevant, and since you can't really rely on lacerate, assassinate/the assassin spec is probably ideal. You can get by with a solo shadow duelist still (vendetta provides nice movement around the field and seems to draw less threat), but shadow assassin deals more damage.
I'm almost certain that you can't stack statuses. One overrides the other. That's why it's probably best to have some qualifiers in the tactics which prevent brittling staggered enemies etc.
Anyway, even if you're not hitting the cap, vendetta may be more useful than assassinate if you can get some CCCs happening. If you looked at the numbers I provided, the vendetta stagger CCC provides 33*base damage whereas the assassinate CCC provides 22*base damage. It is unlikely that the extra damage from devious harm/mark of death will allow the assassinate CCC to deal comparable damage (until very late game with very high cunning), and reaching those damage levels will probably result in damage cap problems.
Basically, the benefits of the assassin spec only become more significant later-game since the shadow assassin build benefits from higher cunning and requires level 20+ before been complete. A fully upgraded vendetta+lacerate shadow/duelist setup can be reached by then, and will be more effective at dealing CCC spike damage. This in my mind makes the shadow-duelist build ideal for mid-game at least.
I don't really see how soloing effectiveness fits into a discussion between ideal specs since soloing is a rather.. specialised kind of play (almost requiring shadow for threat management).
But in any case, it's not always about the most damage possible. Sometimes it may be more ideal/fun to be able to dish out an extra spike damage ability than simply have extra damage. Additionally, disorienting criticals automatically overrides any stagger with a disorient, losing out on a lot of extra damage.
So basically, I see it as;
Early-game: Shadow
Mid-game: Shadow-duelist
End-game: Shadow-assassin or Duelist-assassin
I'm almost certain that you can't stack statuses. One overrides the other. That's why it's probably best to have some qualifiers in the tactics which prevent brittling staggered enemies etc.
Anyway, even if you're not hitting the cap, vendetta may be more useful than assassinate if you can get some CCCs happening. If you looked at the numbers I provided, the vendetta stagger CCC provides 33*base damage whereas the assassinate CCC provides 22*base damage. It is unlikely that the extra damage from devious harm/mark of death will allow the assassinate CCC to deal comparable damage (until very late game with very high cunning), and reaching those damage levels will probably result in damage cap problems.
Basically, the benefits of the assassin spec only become more significant later-game since the shadow assassin build benefits from higher cunning and requires level 20+ before been complete. A fully upgraded vendetta+lacerate shadow/duelist setup can be reached by then, and will be more effective at dealing CCC spike damage. This in my mind makes the shadow-duelist build ideal for mid-game at least.
I don't really see how soloing effectiveness fits into a discussion between ideal specs since soloing is a rather.. specialised kind of play (almost requiring shadow for threat management).
But in any case, it's not always about the most damage possible. Sometimes it may be more ideal/fun to be able to dish out an extra spike damage ability than simply have extra damage. Additionally, disorienting criticals automatically overrides any stagger with a disorient, losing out on a lot of extra damage.
So basically, I see it as;
Early-game: Shadow
Mid-game: Shadow-duelist
End-game: Shadow-assassin or Duelist-assassin
#13
Posté 04 août 2012 - 05:13
Ilklr
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Honestly, I think it all comes down to playstyle and build. We aren't talking about the difference between a Backstab and Assassinate/Vendetta here. They both have advantages, and both do amazing damage, even if one is a little higher.
#14
Posté 06 août 2012 - 07:21
ripstrawberry
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"Yeah, I haven't played DA2 for a long time - I just remember running the numbers etc and one-shotting things with my melee setup I did a guide for. If you're soloing, CCCs become irrelevant, and since you can't really rely on lacerate, assassinate/the assassin spec is probably ideal. You can get by with a solo shadow duelist still (vendetta provides nice movement around the field and seems to draw less threat), but shadow assassin deals more damage."
Yeah that's the only thrill of vendetta IMO, more movement options (rush I gotta admit is boring and deals piddly dmg). Speaking of rush, would you know if it's like hail of arrows and doesn't crit?
"I'm almost certain that you can't stack statuses. One overrides the other. That's why it's probably best to have some qualifiers in the tactics which prevent brittling staggered enemies etc."
Yeah that's what I did when I partied but I haven't honestly experimented trying to stack CCCs.
"Anyway, even if you're not hitting the cap, vendetta may be more useful than assassinate if you can get some CCCs happening. If you looked at the numbers I provided, the vendetta stagger CCC provides 33*base damage whereas the assassinate CCC provides 22*base damage. It is unlikely that the extra damage from devious harm/mark of death will allow the assassinate CCC to deal comparable damage (until very late game with very high cunning), and reaching those damage levels will probably result in damage cap problems."
True. What I was pointing out with the bonuses is that over the course of a battle (since you won't assassinate/vendetta every single enemy), the passive bonuses of assassin help with auto-attacks and other spike dmg skills (backstab, twin fangs and explosive strike). The bonuses the assassin spec provides for those situations + assassinate may overtake the extra you do with one 1 vendetta. So assassin, helps out with dps. Granted, this is not felt as much with a party at low difficulty levels, on a solo level 50 game on nightmare extra points in dps are really helpful/noticed.
"Basically, the benefits of the assassin spec only become more significant later-game since the shadow assassin build benefits from higher cunning and requires level 20+ before been complete. A fully upgraded vendetta+lacerate shadow/duelist setup can be reached by then, and will be more effective at dealing CCC spike damage. This in my mind makes the shadow-duelist build ideal for mid-game at least."
Agreed for a party. Early game shadow-duelist makes sense early-mid game. What I have a different opinion of is late game where I think shadow is slightly superior than assassin and where assassin I believe is superior to duelist. I do see however a playstyle difference. Maybe you'd pick assassin over shadow because you'd rather have the extra spike dmg skill and be setup by your team. I on the other hand prefer the extra tank and to set up my teammates via auto-disorients.
"Additionally, disorienting criticals automatically overrides any stagger with a disorient, losing out on a lot of extra damage. "
Since I haven't played party in awhile, correct me if I'm wrong: for example I have a staggered target and I have disorienting critcals + obscured, I will only have a 10% chance to activate stagger against that target? I won't get +100% lacerate dmg then place the disorient status on it (if it still lives) after then have my teammates take advantage of it via assault/spirit bolt/stonefist/scatter?
Yeah that's the only thrill of vendetta IMO, more movement options (rush I gotta admit is boring and deals piddly dmg). Speaking of rush, would you know if it's like hail of arrows and doesn't crit?
"I'm almost certain that you can't stack statuses. One overrides the other. That's why it's probably best to have some qualifiers in the tactics which prevent brittling staggered enemies etc."
Yeah that's what I did when I partied but I haven't honestly experimented trying to stack CCCs.
"Anyway, even if you're not hitting the cap, vendetta may be more useful than assassinate if you can get some CCCs happening. If you looked at the numbers I provided, the vendetta stagger CCC provides 33*base damage whereas the assassinate CCC provides 22*base damage. It is unlikely that the extra damage from devious harm/mark of death will allow the assassinate CCC to deal comparable damage (until very late game with very high cunning), and reaching those damage levels will probably result in damage cap problems."
True. What I was pointing out with the bonuses is that over the course of a battle (since you won't assassinate/vendetta every single enemy), the passive bonuses of assassin help with auto-attacks and other spike dmg skills (backstab, twin fangs and explosive strike). The bonuses the assassin spec provides for those situations + assassinate may overtake the extra you do with one 1 vendetta. So assassin, helps out with dps. Granted, this is not felt as much with a party at low difficulty levels, on a solo level 50 game on nightmare extra points in dps are really helpful/noticed.
"Basically, the benefits of the assassin spec only become more significant later-game since the shadow assassin build benefits from higher cunning and requires level 20+ before been complete. A fully upgraded vendetta+lacerate shadow/duelist setup can be reached by then, and will be more effective at dealing CCC spike damage. This in my mind makes the shadow-duelist build ideal for mid-game at least."
Agreed for a party. Early game shadow-duelist makes sense early-mid game. What I have a different opinion of is late game where I think shadow is slightly superior than assassin and where assassin I believe is superior to duelist. I do see however a playstyle difference. Maybe you'd pick assassin over shadow because you'd rather have the extra spike dmg skill and be setup by your team. I on the other hand prefer the extra tank and to set up my teammates via auto-disorients.
"Additionally, disorienting criticals automatically overrides any stagger with a disorient, losing out on a lot of extra damage. "
Since I haven't played party in awhile, correct me if I'm wrong: for example I have a staggered target and I have disorienting critcals + obscured, I will only have a 10% chance to activate stagger against that target? I won't get +100% lacerate dmg then place the disorient status on it (if it still lives) after then have my teammates take advantage of it via assault/spirit bolt/stonefist/scatter?
