80 réponses à ce sujet

[R2s Muse]

dragonflight288 wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

The Old Gods were not creators, though they were supposedly also not created.
Interesting. To me, the operative word here is supposedly.

Hmmm. Very compelling argument. May be proven true or false in the next game. 

LOL or the next time we get a short snippet of interview from DG... Instead of another novel we need to get him write a companion guide on the lore of Thedas, so we stop slicing and dicing the merest inflection in his words.

Blacklash93 wrote...

The Veil being destroyed for all time
and everyone having magic would be the ideal world for mages. No one is
advantaged or disadvantaged and demons become predators as natural as
any other. The Mage vs. Templar conflict would be obsolete.

This would certainly solve lots of problem! Like this idea!

Modifié par R2s Muse, 29 juillet 2012 - 10:15 .

[R2s Muse]

Urzon wrote...

There is also the expanded Andraste OGB theory, that connects: the Maker, Andraste (and her revolt), OGBs, Old Gods, and possibly lyrium in there somewhere. What seems to connects them all is.... singing.

Chantry lore has told us that the Maker came to Andraste because of her singing. That it captivated him so, that he would have her rule all of creation by his side. She would not leave her people, so she begged the Maker to return and save his children. He then helped Andraste with her rebellion by bring his wrath to the Imperium.

Imprisoned Old Gods are also known for their singing, or their "Call". It call out to all that bear the Taint, and forces the darkspawn to obession in trying to get to it.

Indeed, the singing is a suspiciously unifying theme. I've always been partial to the 'Andraste is a mage' theory, but Andraste as an OGB... interesting!

What im theorizing is that the OGBs are able to retain their Call/singing, and if it is true that the Old Gods were the Maker's first children; the Maker might return if he hears the uncorrupted singing of one.

My only small quibble here is the Old Gods don't become corrupted until the darkspawn find them. So, in principle all their singing is uncorrupted. But there still could be other reasons for why the Maker doesn't hear them... or want to hear them.

The Andraste OGB theory comes into play here.

"Each day she sang to the gods, asking them to help her people who remained slaves in Tevinter. The false gods of the mountains and the winds did not answer her, but the true god did."

If Andraste was able to keep Dumat's Call (if she was its OGB, of course), she might have been able to literally call the Maker back to Thedas. The Maker wanting to see one of his children again, and her very voice having magic onto itself.

There is now another possible OGB at play now. If Morrigan's child is able to retain it's Call, he might be able to call the Maker back to Thedas again. Andraste was able to persuade the Maker to take up her cause for freedom. What would happen if Morrigan's child thinks it's a good idea to take down the Veil, and asks the Maker to do so?

That would be so cool if Morrigan's OGB indeed used this call to bring back the Maker. Asking him to sunder the Veil in order to help the mages would be nicely parallel to Andraste asking him to help her people out of slavery... while also in some sense fixing a problem that Andraste (inadvertently?) created in the first place with her "magic exists to serve man" shtick.

Oh, as for the lyrium part of the theory....

I'm guessing either the Maker or some other being imprisoned the Old Gods deep under the Deep Roads, so the lyrium's song would act as a blanketing effect and cancel out their singing.

... or something like that. I'm still working on that part.

In Asunder, Cole also heard singing/'music' at the edge of the Abyssal Rift near the fortress. It wasn't clear to me what kind of singing that was supposed to be, but the wiki speculates that it could be the call of the Old Gods. It's a spot where the depths are near (i.e. Old Gods, lyrium, darkspawn) but where also the Veil is thin. More food for thought?

Modifié par R2s Muse, 29 juillet 2012 - 10:37 .

[Dave of Canada]

Wouldn't want the OGB to be as powerful as the hints imply, though. Would screw over those who'd want those results but didn't do it for fear of something worse occuring or screw those who had no idea that would occur. OGB is probably the worst choice simply because it gives you no indication of the consequences.

R2s Muse wrote...

Is this so? I thought it was merely dumb luck that the line fired, since it's like a one in a hundred chance or something like that. Given it's slim chance of happening in the first place... and the general screwiness of the import flags, I guess I would find this very surprising. Did someone confirm that?

Could be screwiness or RNG, however I had set up something to take screenshots every 4-5 seconds around Sandal's dialogue area overnight to confirm and I had never gotten it on my King Cousland who sent Loghain off to die, yet the other playthroughs always end up getting it 20-30 times.

Man, I also forgot about that crazy talking statue. Talking about those shadows again. Hmm, you know, the purpose of lighting a fire is often to drive back the shadows. OH MAN... could all this augur the return of the Maker's gaze to humanity?? I wonder how he's still feeling about all that Andraste stuff... *gulp*

I doubt it's the Maker's literal gaze due to the faith nature of Thedosian religion, yet I wouldn't be surprised if this "gaze" is the world unhindered by the Veil.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 29 juillet 2012 - 10:41 .

[R2s Muse]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Wouldn't want the OGB to be as powerful as the hints imply, though. Would screw over those who'd want those results but didn't do it for fear of something worse occuring or screw those who had no idea that would occur. OGB is probably the worst choice simply because it gives you no indication of the consequences.

Agree, OGB is tough to include in any future installments because of this. I doubt it would end up being central to any storyline... (and I think DG said that explicitly...?) but interesting fodder for fanfic!

R2s Muse wrote...

Is this so? I thought it was merely dumb luck that the line fired, since it's like a one in a hundred chance or something like that. Given it's slim chance of happening in the first place... and the general screwiness of the import flags, I guess I would find this very surprising. Did someone confirm that?

Could be screwiness or RNG, however I had set up something to take screenshots every 4-5 seconds around Sandal's dialogue area overnight to confirm and I had never gotten it on my King Cousland who sent Loghain off to die, yet the other playthroughs always end up getting it 20-30 times.

Hmm, suspicious! Yeah, hard to say, I think the only time I've heard any official comment on the  prophecy was DG's UK Thedas interview, but all he said was that it's rare.

Man, I also forgot about that crazy talking statue. Talking about those shadows again. Hmm, you know, the purpose of lighting a fire is often to drive back the shadows. OH MAN... could all this augur the return of the Maker's gaze to humanity?? I wonder how he's still feeling about all that Andraste stuff... *gulp*

I doubt it's the Maker's literal gaze due to the faith nature of Thedosian religion, yet I wouldn't be surprised if this "gaze" is the world unhindered by the Veil.

Good point. I would be surprised if we'd see a literal second-coming of the Maker, since having your deities show up in person does all sorts of wonky things for faith. I like your Veil suggestion.

[Carmen_Willow]

Blacklash93 wrote...

The Veil being destroyed for all time and everyone having magic would be the ideal world for mages. No one is advantaged or disadvantaged and demons become predators as natural as any other. The Mage vs. Templar conflict would be obsolete.

"Weep not for me, child. Stone they made me and stone I am, eternal and unfeeling. And thus shall I endure 'til the Maker returns to light their fires again."

Dragons? Fires? Alternate dimensions? Special bloodlines?

This is obviously refering to the dragonborn who will need to light the dragonfires in order to keep an evil god from the Fade from invading the reality.

Wait!  I thought the Dovakin belonged to the Nords!  No, no that was Skyrim.  Maybe they could lend us a dragonborn! But wait, don't we have a dragonborn or two already?  I'm thinkin' Flemeth has probably got a little dragon blood in her!  And her daughters too! Calling all witches of the Wilds! Thedas needs you to light the dragon fires.

[WhiteKnyght]

Witch Hunt establishes that alternate realities exist, as Morrigan used it to travel to another world, beyond the Fade.

So how about this? Maybe the Old-gods came into Thedas' world to take over. The Maker, whatever it may really be, got p/o'd that people starting following their teachings over its and put them underground in a deep sleep to stop them.

Or perhaps Thedas' world is really a composite of several different worlds that met their own destruction somehow. Kind of like how dimensional remnants fall into other worlds in Suikoden Tierkreis. Elves, Dwarves, Kossith, Fex, Human, Dragon, all could have had their own worlds that they came from originally, but have misinterpreted their own world's ends.

Like how Dwarves believed that their Thaigs were as old as their records, yet we find a Thaig that predates the memories as well as implies a totally different culture for Dwarves.

And how Elves blame humans for the loss of their immortality and the fact that they all cant perform magic anymore.

[brushyourteeth]

Awesome discussion, guys! 

Two things I'd like to throw in:

One, I think that verse from the Chant could very well simply be saying that the Old Gods used deceit to corrupt the Maker's real first children, the Fade spirits. Look again:

The Old Gods will call to you,
From their ancient prisons they will sing.
Dragons with wicked eyes and wicked hearts,
On blacken'd wings does deceit take flight,
The first of My children, lost to night.
-Silence 3:6, Dissonant Verse (struck from the canonical Chant)

The first of the Maker's children watched across the Veil
And grew jealous of the life
They could not feel, could not touch.
In blackest envy were the demons born.
-Erudition 2:1

So the Maker turned from his firstborn
And took from the Fade
A measure of its living flesh
And placed it apart from the Spirits
-from Threnodies 5:11

Note too that the top verse was struck from the Chant, either because the Orlesian Chantry didn't like what it had to say or because it was possibly written in by the Tevinter Chantry in order to justify blood magic as being an indirect gift of the Maker. And if that verse is not about the Archdemons corrupting the Maker's first children and is actually about them being the Maker's first children, I'd sure like to know who/what was responsible for their corruption. Where does evil start/come from if not the blighted Old Gods? Hmm.

And I totally take Eleni Zenovia's prophecy to mean the Veil ripping over Aeonar. That thing is a ticking time-bomb of chaotic portal-ness:

"The prison is breached. I see the encroaching darkness. The... the shadow will consume all..."

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 30 juillet 2012 - 02:18 .

[WhiteKnyght]

Another proof of the Chantry's hypocrisy. They claim that for the Maker to return, the Chant must be sung across the world. But yet they pick and choose which parts of the chant get spoken.

I don't see how Aeonar relates to it. The "Prison" could mean a lot of things. Also a lot of prophets speak in metaphor and hyperbole. She could have meant an Old god's prison, her stone body which is sort of a prison for her soul, or she could have meant the Gallows from Dragon Age II, which is literally a prison.

Given the fact that chronologically, Witch Hunt takes place AFTER Act 1 of Dragon Age II, and is meant to tie into it, I would assume that she is referencing The Gallows.

The prison being breached could be referencing the Idol coming into Meredith's possession after Bartrand sold it.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 30 juillet 2012 - 03:07 .

[brushyourteeth]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Another proof of the Chantry's hypocrisy. They claim that for the Maker to return, the Chant must be sung across the world. But yet they pick and choose which parts of the chant get spoken.

Well, like I said, that verse could have been tampered with and never been part of the original Chant. Don't be quick to certainty about what's real and what's fake - the devs seem content to let us speculate about, well, just about everything in the DA lore. There is no "proof" when it comes to just about anything supernatural - yet.

I don't see how Aeonar relates to it. The "Prison" could mean a lot of things. Also a lot of prophets speak in metaphor and hyperbole. She could have meant an Old god's prison, her stone body which is sort of a prison for her soul, or she could have meant the Gallows from Dragon Age II, which is literally a prison.

Given the fact that chronologically, Witch Hunt takes place AFTER Act 1 of Dragon Age II, and is meant to tie into it, I would assume that she is referencing The Gallows.

The prison being breached could be referencing the Idol coming into Meredith's possession after Bartrand sold it.

The quote could mean a great many things, true - but I can have my theories as well as anyone can. Not sure what Witch Hunt could possibly have to do with it, though - you hear the prophecy in the mage origin of DA:O.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 30 juillet 2012 - 04:24 .

[nightscrawl]

This thread is really interesting!

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It certainly is interesting how the Chantry doesn't really bother to authorize Veil-repairing missions by both Templars and Mages.

See Kirkwall, Ferelden, and.... just about anywhere.

Hard to believe they're necessary if they not only perpetuate such a danger, but also ignore it.

Whether you like side with the Chantry and the templars or the mages, Brush's post certainly seems to underline that the current system is borked and needs to be changed in some  way. Whether that change comes from a catastrophic event like the veil ripping over all of Thedas remains to be seen, but there has to be something.

[the_one_54321]

The blame game is uninteresting. Everyone is wrong in one way or another. Every side is full of horrible horrible people. How about focusing on potential turns of events, instead?

[R2s Muse]

brushyourteeth wrote...

Awesome discussion, guys! 

Two things I'd like to throw in:

One, I think that verse from the Chant could very well simply be saying that the Old Gods used deceit to corrupt the Maker's real first children, the Fade spirits. Look again:

The Old Gods will call to you,
From their ancient prisons they will sing.
Dragons with wicked eyes and wicked hearts,
On blacken'd wings does deceit take flight,
The first of My children, lost to night.
-Silence 3:6, Dissonant Verse (struck from the canonical Chant)

The first of the Maker's children watched across the Veil
And grew jealous of the life
They could not feel, could not touch.
In blackest envy were the demons born.
-Erudition 2:1

So the Maker turned from his firstborn
And took from the Fade
A measure of its living flesh
And placed it apart from the Spirits
-from Threnodies 5:11

Note too that the top verse was struck from the Chant, either because the Orlesian Chantry didn't like what it had to say or because it was possibly written in by the Tevinter Chantry in order to justify blood magic as being an indirect gift of the Maker. And if that verse is not about the Archdemons corrupting the Maker's first children and is actually about them being the Maker's first children, I'd sure like to know who/what was responsible for their corruption. Where does evil start/come from if not the blighted Old Gods? Hmm.

Hmm, interesting idea, brush! You know, Erudition 2 I always took to mean that the first children, the Fade spirits, became demons and evil by watching the humans across the Veil and becoming jealous. Especially since the Maker specifically turned from his first born in disappointment in order to make his second  born, the humans (Threnodies 5:2 - 5:8) -- creating the Veil in the process. So the jealousy of Erudition 2 would have to happen after the "turning away" of Threnodies 5:11.

My firstborn. You have been given dominion
Over all that exists. By your will
All things are done.
Yet you do nothing.
The realm I have given you
Is formless, ever-changing.

And He knew he had wrought amiss.
So the Maker turned from his firstborn...
- excerpt Threnodies 5:4-5:5

Hmm. You know, the Chant, and other sources, frequently talk about false gods who are wrongly worshipped and whisper to humans, whom I have presumed are the entombed Old Gods teaching magic to the Tevinter magisters since they gave magic to humans. However, I just noticed for the first time that they're often called "demons" in the Chant.


And so we burned. We raised nations, we waged wars,
We dreamed up false gods, great demons
Who could cross the Veil into the waking world,
Turned our devotion upon them, and forgot you.
-Threnodies 1:8

Those who had been cast down,
The demons who would be gods,
Began to whisper to men from their tombs within the earth.
And the men of Tevinter heard and raised altars
To the pretender-gods once more,
And in return were given, in hushed whispers,
The secrets of darkest magic.
-Threnodies 5:11

In Darkness eternal they searched
For those who had goaded them on,
Until at last they found their prize,
Their god, their betrayer:
The sleeping dragon Dumat. Their taint
Twisted even the false-god, and the whisperer
Awoke at last, in pain and horror, and led
Them to wreak havoc upon all the nations of the world:
The first Blight.
-Threnodies 8.7

Hmm, I may be even more convinced now that somehow the Old God dragons are part of the first born... and maybe their jealousy and corruption of the humans is just plain old sibling rivalry...?? Trying to get back at dear old dad? Heh heh, how interesting... will have to think on it more.

Modifié par R2s Muse, 30 juillet 2012 - 01:02 .

[ProjectCaddyGuy]

Maybe this is my cynicism... But the Chantry doesn't care about mages except as a tool of fear. Very akin to modern religions. Mages and their connection to the veil makes for a great boogeyman, conveniently kept under lock and key for the most part. Mages are powerful enough that the average person doesn't think they can begin to fight them, yet not SO powerful that the Chantry and their "Soldiers blessed by the Creator" can't handle them. Using lyrium to boost their abilities? Mages AND Templar do it. Even when I'm not playing a mage, I can never support the Chantry and their religious indoctrination, and blatant controlling of people.
Why doesn't the Chantry absorb mages into itself though. Priests with magic? Oh, because crossing into the veil, speaking with spirits (and demons) who have been around longer, who may have been there for the death of Andraste, etc... The Chantry couldn't survive actual truth and knowledge being spread. It needs mystery to maintain influence over the masses. Just like modern religions control their own texts and information, and you have to go to certain people to gain a measure of "understanding." Bah
Down with the Chantry!

[Shadowvalker]

Hmm

Well if I had a parent that did as here written:

My firstborn. You have been given dominion
Over all that exists. By your will
All things are done.
Yet you do nothing.
The realm I have given you
Is formless, ever-changing.

And He knew he had wrought amiss.
So the Maker turned from his firstborn...
- excerpt Threnodies 5:4-5:5

I would do my very best to kick his/hers buttocks at every opportunity I got! God, Goddess or what not!

[GavrielKay]

R2s Muse wrote...
Hmm, I may be even more convinced now that somehow the Old God dragons are part of the first born... and maybe their jealousy and corruption of the humans is just plain old sibling rivalry...?? Trying to get back at dear old dad? Heh heh, how interesting... will have to think on it more.

We know that demons can possess just about anything.  And we know they are attracted to power.  What if the old gods are a series of extremely powerful abominations - dragons possessed by the most powerful of demons who then try to lure humans into worshipping them?  It would be the ultimate insult to the Maker who created them and pefectly within the mentality of demons as they are presented.

We know demons can teach magic, especially the kinds normally forbidden. 

[brushyourteeth]

GavrielKay wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...
Hmm, I may be even more convinced now that somehow the Old God dragons are part of the first born... and maybe their jealousy and corruption of the humans is just plain old sibling rivalry...?? Trying to get back at dear old dad? Heh heh, how interesting... will have to think on it more.

We know that demons can possess just about anything.  And we know they are attracted to power.  What if the old gods are a series of extremely powerful abominations - dragons possessed by the most powerful of demons who then try to lure humans into worshipping them?  It would be the ultimate insult to the Maker who created them and pefectly within the mentality of demons as they are presented.

We know demons can teach magic, especially the kinds normally forbidden. 

I LOVE this theory!!!

[R2s Muse]

brushyourteeth wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...
Hmm, I may be even more convinced now that somehow the Old God dragons are part of the first born... and maybe their jealousy and corruption of the humans is just plain old sibling rivalry...?? Trying to get back at dear old dad? Heh heh, how interesting... will have to think on it more.

We know that demons can possess just about anything.  And we know they are attracted to power.  What if the old gods are a series of extremely powerful abominations - dragons possessed by the most powerful of demons who then try to lure humans into worshipping them?  It would be the ultimate insult to the Maker who created them and pefectly within the mentality of demons as they are presented.

We know demons can teach magic, especially the kinds normally forbidden. 

I LOVE this theory!!!

Oh man, I do, too. You know... that would solve a lot of things. I can't shake the impression from both the Chant's dogmatic condemnation of the Old Gods and David Gaider's tapdancing about them that somehow they're like the trickster gods, fooling the Maker and the people about their true nature and intentions. This would be brilliant!

The Canticle of Silence, yet again:

Dragons with wicked eyes and wicked hearts,
On blacken'd wings does deceit take flight,
The first of My children, lost to night.

Could the first of His children, some demons, be lost to night, i.e. the Fade, because they skipped town into some dragons? Interesting.

Modifié par R2s Muse, 30 juillet 2012 - 05:21 .

[GavrielKay]

R2s Muse wrote...
Could the first of His children, some demons, be lost to night, i.e. the Fade, because they skipped town into some dragons? Interesting.

I don't know if that really is the writers intention, but I think it is strongly hinted at by those lines in the Chant and it would fit with the personlity of say a pride demon...  luring the Magisters to their doom by telling them all the power they could get by going to the Golden City and such...  and isn't one of the old gods that god of fire?  I'm thinking good candidate for Rage demon.

I have no proof, but I don't think the idea is contradicted anywhere.

[WhiteKnyght]

GavrielKay wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...
Hmm, I may be even more convinced now that somehow the Old God dragons are part of the first born... and maybe their jealousy and corruption of the humans is just plain old sibling rivalry...?? Trying to get back at dear old dad? Heh heh, how interesting... will have to think on it more.

We know that demons can possess just about anything.  And we know they are attracted to power.  What if the old gods are a series of extremely powerful abominations - dragons possessed by the most powerful of demons who then try to lure humans into worshipping them?  It would be the ultimate insult to the Maker who created them and pefectly within the mentality of demons as they are presented.

We know demons can teach magic, especially the kinds normally forbidden. 

Saw a DG quote that said the old gods were not created by the being who created the DA world.

If Demon and Dragon are both its creation, then by logic, the old gods would be too. But they're not.

[GavrielKay]

The Grey Nayr wrote...
If Demon and Dragon are both its creation, then by logic, the old gods would be too. But they're not.

Well, I grant that it could contradict...  but if you worm your way around a bit...  the "old gods" would not have been created, but simply the result of possession.  That they called themselves gods and convinced humans to worship them is then a matter of the personlaity of the demon.

I'm reaching of course, but it's all guesswork anwyay.  And even DG has been known to contradict himself and the lore on occasion.

[R2s Muse]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

GavrielKay wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...
Hmm, I may be even more convinced now that somehow the Old God dragons are part of the first born... and maybe their jealousy and corruption of the humans is just plain old sibling rivalry...?? Trying to get back at dear old dad? Heh heh, how interesting... will have to think on it more.

We know that demons can possess just about anything.  And we know they are attracted to power.  What if the old gods are a series of extremely powerful abominations - dragons possessed by the most powerful of demons who then try to lure humans into worshipping them?  It would be the ultimate insult to the Maker who created them and pefectly within the mentality of demons as they are presented.

We know demons can teach magic, especially the kinds normally forbidden. 

Saw a DG quote that said the old gods were not created by the being who created the DA world.

If Demon and Dragon are both its creation, then by logic, the old gods would be too. But they're not.

This was quoted already earlier in this thread. What he apparently actually said was:
"The Old Gods were not creators, though they were supposedly also not created. "

So... of course, who knows. But, he did put the word "supposedly" in there. DG may also have talked about this topic elsewhere as well... but at least in that post, he seemed to be deliberately vague about the "godhood" part.

So, I don't know that this idea is necessarily ruled out. :shrug;

[Fallstar]

There is no supposedly in the original quote, I think that's another poster adding to it.

"The old gods are neither creators nor created" is what was said.

[R2s Muse]

DuskWarden wrote...

There is no supposedly in the original quote, I think that's another poster adding to it.

"The old gods are neither creators nor created" is what was said.

Erm, well, I suppose now I'm not sure which quote you're talking about, but I was referring to my own post from earlier in this thread which has the following link to David Gaider himself, which does indeed have the word supposedly as of today, 7/30/12. But, you may also want to check it out yourself. http://social.biowar...508455/3#509837

Paragraph One, line 5 of DG's response: " The Old Gods were not creators, though they were supposedly also not created." I don't believe anyone else can add to David Gaider's posts...

But, if there's another DG post you can link to that includes your own quote, I'd love to see it! Anything he has to say about the Old Gods would be a great addition to the discussion, especially if it's that definitive.

Modifié par R2s Muse, 31 juillet 2012 - 12:43 .

[brushyourteeth]

So, I just realized that after the events of DAII the other Circles rose up in rebellion and many of them were annulled - which guess what? - means tons of distressed magic users, death, and suffering, around each Circle location where there was probably a weak Veil.

Wouldn't it be just grand if the Veil ripped open over every Circle tower like swiss cheese? Way to go, Templars/Anders(*cough*). Way.to.go.

[Xilizhra]

Remember that all the Circles did was take a vote to leave. The templars attacked thereafter.