324 réponses à ce sujet

[Shadow of Terror]

Condor, you can get picked off from anywhere on the map, far far FAR too open.

[kyles3]

Rokayt wrote...

You like making small grenade intensive maps with easy to turn corners.

My Drell vanguard approves approves.
(Its kinda easy on most of them to just run laps to the ammo boxes as him and pull a top score. Try making some harder corners to navigate. It would make your maps less cheat like for that class.)

Turning corners is easy? Maybe on PC. On consoles...blergh.

[T41rdEye]

Why do people think there aren't any good camping spots (defendable locations) on Condor? The spot where you start the mission on is perfect. There are two ledges on the left which are perfect to place a pylon, and if a banshee comes storming in there is room to retreat. If you have a SE with you, he can take cover on the box to the right and place his decoy in the killzone. The only thing to watch out for is Rocket Troopers or Nemesis up on the balcony, but they aren't going to wipe your team or anything.

I see a lot of people going up on the hill, which is okay on lower difficulties but you will get flanked eventually on gold or above. Phantoms will flip up to the top and surprise you...I've seen this happen many times. Pyros will murder everyone up there too of they aren't taken out quickly.

The ammo boxes are the only thing I dislike about that map, or any other for that matter. Rio is hell only because of randoms camping in the middle, they don't realize the enemies will spawn behind you. You need to pick one side of the map and defend it. Preferably near the AA guns.

Ooh yeah, I Insta-quit White lobbies... You know why.

[Toxic Waste]

Reactor and Vancover

[Rokayt]

kyles3 wrote...

Rokayt wrote...

You like making small grenade intensive maps with easy to turn corners.

My Drell vanguard approves approves.
(Its kinda easy on most of them to just run laps to the ammo boxes as him and pull a top score. Try making some harder corners to navigate. It would make your maps less cheat like for that class.)

Turning corners is easy? Maybe on PC. On consoles...blergh.

On Hydra/Godess/London, Yes.

Jade has one hard corner.

This is for a Drell vanguard with Adrenalin.

[Jos Hendriks]

Star fury wrote...
Some hack/download objectives like Reactor center, Goddess hall, London center they're just not fair. Especially Thessia(old version) and London - absolutely no cover, enemy spawns right in front of you and you have to hold it without moving 2-5 minutes. It's not fair, it is cheap. Most times people just spam rockets and sometimes even that doesn't help. I don't see hard work from map designers - I can easily make hack spot in open spot without cover, and say that it's challenge for players and they have to enjoy it. 

Objectives never come about that way, though. Every objective placed gets tried out several times by different groups of people while in development, and objectives across the board have moved around a lot during a level's development. I don't simply throw in objectives for the heck of it, and try to think of a way I can screw over the players. Some objectives still end up being tough, and everyone will at some point run into a group of random people to play with who don't coordinate, which makes things harder. I'm also not telling you to enjoy anything. I just hope you do, and listen and adapt when you don't. 

Achire wrote...
London. Was any playtesting even done above Bronze for those hack points? Nobody likes infinitely respawning enemies. It's much worse when they spawn right on top of you like they do on London. Don't they point this stuff out in Game Design 101 or something? You're not making the game "difficult" in any satisfying manner. You're just wasting everyone's time.

Most definitely! Snarky Game Design 101 comment aside, we do test all objectives a lot, different groups with different people on all difficulties available. London specifically we tested extensively on Gold and Platinum, with some Silver games in there as well.
Funny story, at one point during development we tested London on Gold and we had no ammo crates to refill ammo at. We still had a full extraction without much trouble.

[Moress]

tossup between condor, jade, and goddess, though I can make goddess work for me with the right people

[Jos Hendriks]

Rokayt wrote...
You like making small grenade intensive maps with easy to turn corners.

My Drell vanguard approves approves.
(Its kinda easy on most of them to just run laps to the ammo boxes as him and pull a top score. Try making some harder corners to navigate. It would make your maps less cheat like for that class.)

Nope, I like making levels that do something that the others don't.  (at least, I would really not consider Hydra to be a small grenade intensive map)

[BoomDynamite]

Jos Hendriks wrote...
Funny story, at one point during development we tested London on Gold and we had no ammo crates to refill ammo at. We still had a full extraction without much trouble.

You guys should make a mode without ammo boxes.

[mpompeo27]

Reactor. I have not had good experiences on that map.

[Dream-Maker]

It changes with every DLC but right now my most hated map is Vancouver.

I just don't like the circle-like structure of the map. There's only one passage in the middle that allows you to go to one side from another and it's a ladder. It's also too open everywhere and to my knowledge there's no place where players can really camp for a while if they need to.

[Rokayt]

Jos Hendriks wrote...

Rokayt wrote...
You like making small grenade intensive maps with easy to turn corners.

My Drell vanguard approves approves.
(Its kinda easy on most of them to just run laps to the ammo boxes as him and pull a top score. Try making some harder corners to navigate. It would make your maps less cheat like for that class.)

Nope, I like making levels that do something that the others don't.  (at least, I would really not consider Hydra to be a small grenade intensive map)

Well. To A Drell on Adrenalin...

All of the maps are small?

Modifié par Rokayt, 17 août 2012 - 02:34 .

[DnVill]

Jos Hendriks wrote...

This makes for good reading material, everyone. Seeing as I'm responsible for at least a few of your most hated levels (though some love them, too), would you mind elaborating a bit on reasons why you dislike certain levels so much for those who haven't?

on reactor.

When you move to the next ammo boxes on the right side when you spawn. The 2 reactor type cover there is tricky(near the stairs). Somehow even in cover you can still get hit by enemies unless you fully lean against it.

[Epique Phael767]

I really dislike Rio and Glacier because enemies have the annoying tendency to randomly appear behind me.

[isetfires]

HYDRA+GOLD/PLATINUM=HATE.Get sniped from everywhere you walk/run except that back room and hallway. HATE HYDRA.

[Savage Baird]

Jos Hendriks wrote...

DragonRacer wrote...

Jos,

I'd love to know what maps you created.

With the caveat that a lot of people work on each individual level, and on the design side some levels get worked on by several designers, I've had a majority stake in Hydra, Goddess, Jade, and London. I've also had a lesser part in all the other DLC MP levels.

Wait. You mean you picked this spots for those Hacking objectives on London?
Please tell me you didn't do it on purpose.

[sclera]

isetfires wrote...

HYDRA+GOLD/PLATINUM=HATE.Get sniped from everywhere you walk/run except that back room and hallway. HATE HYDRA.

Hydra's a good example of a map that's great with buddies and terrible with randoms. The room with the blue orb is a perfect position. Reapers make it tough, you just need to adapt to the banshees and make sure you've got a couple of damage dealers to take them out quickly. 

[Star fury]

Jos Hendriks wrote...

Objectives never come about that way, though. Every objective placed gets tried out several times by different groups of people while in development, and objectives across the board have moved around a lot during a level's development. I don't simply throw in objectives for the heck of it, and try to think of a way I can screw over the players. Some objectives still end up being tough, and everyone will at some point run into a group of random people to play with who don't coordinate, which makes things harder. I'm also not telling you to enjoy anything. I just hope you do, and listen and adapt when you don't. 

Interesting that I don't have problem with hack/download on old 5 maps except Reactor. Now with experience even reactor hack on wave 10 isn't too difficult like in the beginnning when it was death sentence.

But DLC maps have obvious problem with intended and artificial difficulty of hack. There have to be enough cover and enemy spawns have to be on reasonable distance from hack spot. So if you have enough DPS you can kill anything if all 4 players in the circle. Again banshees with their enormous speed and HP can ruin any hack with randoms. 

Modifié par Star fury, 17 août 2012 - 02:52 .

[Savage Baird]

Jos Hendriks wrote...

Star fury wrote...
Some hack/download objectives like Reactor center, Goddess hall, London center they're just not fair. Especially Thessia(old version) and London - absolutely no cover, enemy spawns right in front of you and you have to hold it without moving 2-5 minutes. It's not fair, it is cheap. Most times people just spam rockets and sometimes even that doesn't help. I don't see hard work from map designers - I can easily make hack spot in open spot without cover, and say that it's challenge for players and they have to enjoy it. 

Objectives never come about that way, though. Every objective placed gets tried out several times by different groups of people while in development, and objectives across the board have moved around a lot during a level's development. I don't simply throw in objectives for the heck of it, and try to think of a way I can screw over the players. Some objectives still end up being tough, and everyone will at some point run into a group of random people to play with who don't coordinate, which makes things harder. I'm also not telling you to enjoy anything. I just hope you do, and listen and adapt when you don't. 

Achire wrote...
London. Was any playtesting even done above Bronze for those hack points? Nobody likes infinitely respawning enemies. It's much worse when they spawn right on top of you like they do on London. Don't they point this stuff out in Game Design 101 or something? You're not making the game "difficult" in any satisfying manner. You're just wasting everyone's time.

Most definitely! Snarky Game Design 101 comment aside, we do test all objectives a lot, different groups with different people on all difficulties available. London specifically we tested extensively on Gold and Platinum, with some Silver games in there as well.
Funny story, at one point during development we tested London on Gold and we had no ammo crates to refill ammo at. We still had a full extraction without much trouble.

Nope. Unless you have a full, coordinating team, the hacking objectives on London are almost impossible on Gold and I bet are impossible on Platinum.

[Savage Baird]

Oh, by the way, my most hated are London and Reactor, I hate London for the horrible Hacking objective placements an Reactor is just a boring map.

[Grammaton Dryad]

I like how i'm the opposite of most people it seems. I HATE hydra, but kinda enjoy condor.

[Sidney]

Cyanide483 wrote...

The above is reliably manageable with friends but not so with PUGs. The LZ is one gigantic "good luck with Lone Survivor" area even if you do decent with your kiting job.

On reactor if my team rushes the LZ on extraction, and 95% of PUG's do, I can guarantee they get wiped. Frankly a lot of maps can get overwhelmed at the LZ but reactor is especially lethal for some reason - likely the two point blank spawn points.

[Sidney]

Grammaton Dryad wrote...

I like how i'm the opposite of most people it seems. I HATE hydra, but kinda enjoy condor.

Do not get the Condor hate at all. The map plays easy as long as you defend the high road between the platform and pipeline. You get a ton of easy kills dropping the spawn point on the platform if that happens, if not the pipes make easy pickings. The only bad element of that map is if you get a objective in the drop zone that is either 2 or 3. The first activation you won't get trapped but 2 or 3 you could bottleneck in there.

[Sidney]

Savage Baird wrote...
Nope. Unless you have a full, coordinating team, the hacking objectives on London are almost impossible on Gold and I bet are impossible on Platinum.

Well not impossible. You will fail IMHO IF:

1. No one stays up on the bridge. If you let them come at you from both the DZ and LZ AND from above you will die. It means only 3 in the zone but so what?
2. No one uses rockets. You have them use them.