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Jumping off Alistair Bandwagon


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#76
Lord Abrasion

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Recidiva wrote...

My mage hated his guts.  First meeting a templar after getting screwed over by a templar, a first enchanter and then my bestest buddy Jowan did not leave me in a trusting mood.  Getting the "darkspawn or death" (not even cake as a choice!)  treatment by Duncan just made me angrier, and by the time Alistair and I had any conversation at all, I was infuriated by everything he said and avoided talking to him because he's picking on a mage and can't tell I'm a mage even though I'm carrying a...big staff.  Dufus.

Eventually decided once she found out he'd be king that she'd make him King and he hated her for it.  Fine.  We're even. 

And even then, I'd pick the most neutral of choices and suddenly I'm in a romance.  NO!  No rose.  NO!  Stop.  No.  I'm using you, ******.  Wise up.  Jeeez.

My own mage is pretty much the same. At first she resents the Wardens for their questionable recruitment methods (ie "Join us or we'll gut you like a fish!"). When she finds out that the Joining ritual kills you no matter what, she begins to hate them. In her mind, they've murdered her. Having come to the conclusion that Irving had been grooming her to become a Warden and all the time knowing what the Joining does to people (judging by how he describes the Wardens), she also develops a strong hatred towards him. The closest thing she's had to a father condemned her to a slow death.

I'm thinking I'll make Anora queen and let her execute Alistair, then I'll make Loghain a Warden so he can sacrifice himself instead of doing it myself. Anora should be pretty pleased with that scenario. She gets what she wants and her father is remembered as a hero instead of a traitor. As for my mage, she'll probably do some traveling with her beloved Leliana instead of trying to rebuild the order in Ferelden. Turning her back on them will be the icing on her revenge-cake.

#77
Cybercat999

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tmp7704 wrote...
Ok, they had a talk about licking lamp posts once.


I told him I had my share of lampposts licking and some more once. He said that the thought was.... um...... disturbing. Didnt get any disapproval though. Maybe he actually liked the idea...

#78
JaegerBane

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The part with Alistair throwing a hissy fit because I put him forward for the throne was an interesting one. It would have been nice to have an option to tell him 'Yes, I know you didn't want to be a King. But it was either you or Anora and frankly, I trust Anora about as far as I can throw Shale. It was a fair bet to assume I didn't want to die but you neglected to tell me about the Taint before Joining, so it's not like you've had make that kind of decision before'.



Or words to the effect. My Mage was bestest buds with him and basically sympathised with his situation, and offered whatever help he could provide once he's on the Throne.

#79
RPGmom28

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I loved Alistair to distraction on the first and second playthroughs. Then I realized that if I was going to ever have an ending besides making Anora queen and leaving with Alistair to be happily ever after wardens, I'd have to have my character's heart crushed into bits over and over. Now I only romance Zevran.



Steve Valentine is charming. He's probably the reason I liked Alistair so much from the start. I still like Alistair, I just like him safely from a distance by not romancing him anymore. I get too emotionally involved in the game, wanting my character who has been through so much to have some happiness. Knowing that the romance will be doomed from the start unless she is a human noble is not exactly incentive for me to begin it.

#80
EnchantedEyes1

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I was also driven to distraction by Alistair in my first playthroughs as a human noble. It was all wine and roses until I made him king and he dumped my PC like a bad habit. Amazingly though, Zevran was there to pick up the pieces and I found his character so much more appealing than I could have imagined. I might do one more with Alistair and end up as queen, but I'm thinking it's going to be Zevran over Alistair in future playthroughs.

#81
SnakeStrike8

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Hey, I was off the Alistair bandwagon as soon as we left Lothering. The brainless oaf whines constantly about 'not sacrificing innocents for the greater good', but he worships a man (Duncan) who stabs another man (Jory) only because he realized that he'd been lied to. Then he shouts about how blood magic is evil and wicked, and then ALSO complains that we shouldn't kill a little kid... but still expects a happy ending, which you won't get if you turn the Circle over to the Templars, which Alistair seems to agree with anyway.

Alistair=Hypocrite.

#82
Recidiva

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SnakeStrike8 wrote...

Hey, I was off the Alistair bandwagon as soon as we left Lothering. The brainless oaf whines constantly about 'not sacrificing innocents for the greater good', but he worships a man (Duncan) who stabs another man (Jory) only because he realized that he'd been lied to. Then he shouts about how blood magic is evil and wicked, and then ALSO complains that we shouldn't kill a little kid... but still expects a happy ending, which you won't get if you turn the Circle over to the Templars, which Alistair seems to agree with anyway.
Alistair=Hypocrite.


The ability to confront Alistair about the fact that drinking darkspawn blood...is...blood...magic...is something I dearly miss.

#83
JaegerBane

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SnakeStrike8 wrote...

Hey, I was off the Alistair bandwagon as soon as we left Lothering. The brainless oaf whines constantly about 'not sacrificing innocents for the greater good', but he worships a man (Duncan) who stabs another man (Jory) only because he realized that he'd been lied to. Then he shouts about how blood magic is evil and wicked, and then ALSO complains that we shouldn't kill a little kid... but still expects a happy ending, which you won't get if you turn the Circle over to the Templars, which Alistair seems to agree with anyway.
Alistair=Hypocrite.


I think calling him a 'brainless oaf' is overly harsh. He sticks by what he believe is right. Duncan's actions with Jory did border on the extreme, yeah, but that ritual is secret for a reason and frankly, I wouldn't trust Jory with that knowledge. He doesn't do a bad job of being king, despite not wanting the job.

Hell, he does a far better job than Loghain does, that's for sure. Tactical genius, my arse. 'Yeah! There's an invasion coming! Let's kill the king and screw up the country, that'll fix it!' :blink:

#84
SnakeStrike8

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JaegerBane wrote...

I think calling him a 'brainless oaf' is overly harsh. He sticks by what he believe is right. Duncan's actions with Jory did border on the extreme, yeah, but that ritual is secret for a reason and frankly, I wouldn't trust Jory with that knowledge. He doesn't do a bad job of being king, despite not wanting the job.

Hell, he does a far better job than Loghain does, that's for sure. Tactical genius, my arse. 'Yeah! There's an invasion coming! Let's kill the king and screw up the country, that'll fix it!' :blink:


And it would have worked too, if it weren't for those meddling kids and their dumb dog!Posted Image

#85
syllogi

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SnakeStrike8 wrote...
And it would have worked too, if it weren't for those meddling kids and their dumb dog!Posted Image


Which brings us to the question, is Alistair Fred or Shaggy?  And would Morrigan be Daphne?  I guess I can see Leliana as Velma...

#86
SnakeStrike8

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TeenZombie wrote...

SnakeStrike8 wrote...
And it would have worked too, if it weren't for those meddling kids and their dumb dog!Posted Image


Which brings us to the question, is Alistair Fred or Shaggy?  And would Morrigan be Daphne?  I guess I can see Leliana as Velma...


Shaggy. Definitely. No-one else gets TWO scenes with Dog, do they?
I dunno about Morrigan, though. We need someone who's only good for getting snatched away by the bad guys. Maybe a female PC would suffice.
Oh, and Oghren's Fred. Foul red-haired perpetually drunk womanizer! Taste you this!

#87
Recidiva

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JaegerBane wrote...

I think calling him a 'brainless oaf' is overly harsh. He sticks by what he believe is right. Duncan's actions with Jory did border on the extreme, yeah, but that ritual is secret for a reason and frankly, I wouldn't trust Jory with that knowledge. He doesn't do a bad job of being king, despite not wanting the job.

Hell, he does a far better job than Loghain does, that's for sure. Tactical genius, my arse. 'Yeah! There's an invasion coming! Let's kill the king and screw up the country, that'll fix it!' :blink:


I don't respect someone who sticks by their guns, if their guns are basically the equivalent of "We should try negotiating with the Darkspawn!  It's never been tried...it just might work!"  and then gets all pissed off that I'm not setting the table and drawing up seating charts.  "Now, can I seat a Genlock next to a Hurlock, or is that bad manners?"

What he believes is right is that Idealistic Duncan did no wrong and there's...it makes no sense.

It makes about as much sense as the raspberry jam on the altar.  But at least the jam was funny.

Modifié par Recidiva, 20 décembre 2009 - 01:55 .


#88
Recidiva

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TeenZombie wrote...

Which brings us to the question, is Alistair Fred or Shaggy?  And would Morrigan be Daphne?  I guess I can see Leliana as Velma...


Definitely Shaggy.

Morrigan's Old Man Whatshisname that's always doing something shady.

#89
fantasypisces

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TeenZombie wrote...

How many of these threads do we need?

There are NO "Alistair Appreciation" threads on the first 10 pages of this forum. There are probably a dozen "Alistair Sucks" threads. We get it.

Yes, we get it, it's not cool to like Alistair, you're a wimpy, lame, fangirl if you defend him.

Loghain rules because he is an amoral psychopath, and your character ought to be psychic and just KNOW that he won't betray you after undertaking the Joining. Right, okay.

I'm really tired of trying to be logical or use common sense to explain why he's not the worst person EVER for not loving Loghain like everyone else does for no apparent reason. Have at it with the Alistair bashing.


I admit, I am bashing, after weeks of defending him. But in no way am I saying Loghain is cool, for all my final endings (not reloading for achievements) Loghain always dies, it's just the metagaming knowledge that makes me irritated.

#90
fantasypisces

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tmp7704 wrote...

Dying soldier:
We don't have time for this. See he is already dead
Alistair: Does the word insane mean anything to you?
PC: Just shut up and follow my lead!
Alistair: Remind me not to get injured around you.
Alistair disapproves: -3

Ok buddy, you keep your idealic image of the Grey Wardens, I'm soooooo sorry that my character had no interest in joining them.

Wait, you're upset and disappointed because the guy doesn't approve killing in cold blood a person who was fighting on your own side, and who could be instead either left alone or patched back to decent condition should you so choose?

The nerve, indeed. Posted Image


No no no, your missing the point. Yes he should be pissed that I killed someone in cold blood (hell I was, that's why I didn't keep it, I was just trying to see the dialogue). The point is that I lost 10 approval for saying I didn't want to be a Grey Warden, but only lost 3 approval for committing a heinous act of murder. My point is that it makes no sense. :happy:

#91
Jassper

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I didn't read all 4 pages so don't know if anyone pointed this out or not,



The Approval sliders are dynamic. In other words if something you do is going to set a NPC to "Warm" and that NPC is only 2 points away then the rating will display as "So-and-So Approves +2" if they are 10 points away then you will see "So-and-So Approves +10".



So the amount shown will be what ever it needs to be depending on where you currently are on the Bar to set them to Warm, Like, Dislike, etc. The actual number has nothing to do with it, it all depends on the Catagory.




#92
tmp7704

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fantasypisces wrote...

No no no, your missing the point. Yes he should be pissed that I killed someone in cold blood (hell I was, that's why I didn't keep it, I was just trying to see the dialogue). The point is that I lost 10 approval for saying I didn't want to be a Grey Warden, but only lost 3 approval for committing a heinous act of murder. My point is that it makes no sense. :happy:

Yeah someone explained it later in the thread Posted Image  Still, i don't find it much of an issue... if the romantic in-game interest suddenly stabbed a random guy on the road and then back in the camp told the player they don't want to be with them anymore ... which one do you think would evoke more drastic reaction? Posted Image

#93
Stengahpolis

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SnakeStrike8 wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

SnakeStrike8 wrote...
And it would have worked too, if it weren't for those meddling kids and their dumb dog!Posted Image


Which brings us to the question, is Alistair Fred or Shaggy?  And would Morrigan be Daphne? I guess I can see Leliana as Velma...


Shaggy. Definitely. No-one else gets TWO scenes with Dog, do they?
I dunno about Morrigan, though. We need someone who's only good for getting snatched away by the bad guys. Maybe a female PC would suffice.
Oh, and Oghren's Fred. Foul red-haired perpetually drunk womanizer! Taste you this!


Morrigan's definitely Daphne. And my PC's Fred. They're always going off together to 'look for clues.'

#94
fantasypisces

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tmp7704 wrote...

fantasypisces wrote...

No no no, your missing the point. Yes he should be pissed that I killed someone in cold blood (hell I was, that's why I didn't keep it, I was just trying to see the dialogue). The point is that I lost 10 approval for saying I didn't want to be a Grey Warden, but only lost 3 approval for committing a heinous act of murder. My point is that it makes no sense. :happy:

Yeah someone explained it later in the thread Posted Image  Still, i don't find it much of an issue... if the romantic in-game interest suddenly stabbed a random guy on the road and then back in the camp told the player they don't want to be with them anymore ... which one do you think would evoke more drastic reaction? Posted Image


But I wasn't even with him yet. He knew nothing about me, I knew nothing about him. It was literally the first conversation we had! (I.e. I just got to Ostagar and sought out Alistair who just finished riling up a mage). This wasn't later in the game (like your earlier post said). This was literally like level 3 and just after saying "Hello, what's your name?".

And I was a male, not a female. So basically, he instantly hates me because I didn't want to be a Grey Warden even though he has no idea as to how or why I got recruited. But my first action of drawing a weapon in front of him is to kill a completely innocent person and he is mildly ok with it. So your reference doesn't work.

Modifié par fantasypisces, 20 décembre 2009 - 02:19 .


#95
tmp7704

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fantasypisces wrote...

This was literally like level 3 and just after saying "Hello, what's your name?".

For these templars types it's enough. Just ask Cullen...

#96
fantasypisces

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I edited my post right above yours tmp, it just hasn't shown up yet.


#97
Gulaman

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Alistair is really camp, I'm amazed a male PC can't have a relationship with him. Not that I want to, or anything.
I only wanted to get approval from him so he can teach me to become a Templar. Not that it was much fun, the main skill I wanted (the spell killing thingy) only seems to work for other characters. So no way to get rid off that dastardly 'curse of mortality' unless Alistair is around to bail you out. Bugger.

Modifié par Gulaman, 20 décembre 2009 - 02:21 .


#98
tmp7704

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fantasypisces wrote...

I edited my post right above yours tmp, it just hasn't shown up yet.

It's okay, small details like gender don't deter a real fan...

i kid of course but (slightly) more seriously, i guess Alistair just really does idolize the Wardens so much he takes perceived slights towards them much more personally. Not a view i'd personally hold but heck, we all have our obsessions and hot buttons. I don't think i could fault him for it because it's very much the classic case of stones and glass houses if i did.

#99
skotie

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I find it interesting that all the Alistair bashers usually end up liking characters like say, Morrigan, when you compare Alistair to the rest of your companions hes really not all that bad.

Lets take a brief look at your party members.

Alistair whiny little man that doesn't want to lead or be king, pretends the Grey Wardens are the best thing since Skippy peanut butter, will end up leaving if you don't kill Loghain for his revenge.

Morrigan witch of the wilds who doesn't like anyone, never wants to help anyone else out and likes shiny jewelery to shut her up if you choose not to be a total **** to all NPCs in the game, or choose to not agree with everything she says. Even if you help her kill her mother who is trying to eat her soul and save her life for free, she will completely abandon you before the fight with the Arch Demon if you don't make a demon baby with her to save your own life. She admits that this is the entire reason she was helping you in the first place as well, she could give a s***less about the blight.

Sten anti social man who just follows order and not much else, he doesn't like talking with you and you get better approval from him if you treat him worse then a dog. Never seen it myself as I don't use him much but he will fight you for helping out in Redcliffe and not going strait for the Arch Demon. Most people won't even need him in their party but hes an option, after the battle he says he will not fight you in battle but will return home, his Quanari people will likely slay all Fereldan with no qualms about doing so, and yes he did murder an entire family including children for apperantly no good reason.

Oghren, drunk drawf who is looking for his wife and offers his help, hes pretty social and friendly and a good warrior, his one draw back is he would rather you gave his love Branka the anvil of the void so she can make golems by enslaving souls. However even if you choose to kill his wife he will help you until the last battle with the Arch Demon, one of your best companions imo.

Dog, obviously will do whatever you wish, never gets mad of upset about your choices, he is what he is, your dog.

Leliana, wacky bard who claims the Marker talks to her in his dream for attention, shes a pretty good fighter but is really religious and always wants to do the right thing and help others, never lieing to them for their own good however. The only time she will turn on you is if you decide to destroy the Urn of Sacred Ashes, as far as I know anyways, as long as you aren't an evil ****** she will follow you and stays until the final battle.

Wynne, preachy old grand mother figure that is too opinionated for her own good, she will frequently get into your love life babbling about how your supposed to be fighting a blight so your happy time with companions is a no no. She will turn on you if you destroy the Urn or if you decide to side with the templars, otherwise if you generally try to help people/ play a good character she stays until the end.

Zevran, assassin hired to kill you who failed, should you choose to let him live he will serve you and is rather easy to keep happy by giving him some gloves and boots. Will turn on you if he doesn't like you enough and runs into the Crows, otherwise he will stick by your side through most decisions you make, although he may not like some of them, I've found he pretty much doesn't really get upset about most things one way or the other as far as what you choose to do in situations. Also will fight by your side at the end if he doesn't betray you for low approval rating.


Just taking a look at the list really your two best character imo are dog and Oghren, those two will not betray you even if they don't like the decisions you make they will not fight you and attack you because of low approval ratings ether if someone knows more about what Oghren will do please inform me.

Most of your party  has tried to kill you or will betray you in the end depending on choices you make, in fact one of the first two main characters will leave before the final battle even begins if you don't do what they want you to, Morrigan or Alistair. I would talk about Loghain but that guy has been trying to kill you and the Grey Wardens from day one, so hes no worse or better than your other companions. In the light of these things everyone wants to bash on Alistair like he betrays you more then the others will/do, as if his good nature somehow means its worse for him to do so. The PC, if they pay attention knows from day one he is not a true "GOOD" character like Wynne or Leliana is, both of those will always insist on doing whats right weather its good for them or not. Alistair however is a borderline character, sometimes willing to do evil if its for a greater good, and would perfer to do the right thing but its not always necessary.

Seriously though considering what most of your party would do to you its really funny to me how Alistair gets all the hate.

Modifié par skotie, 20 décembre 2009 - 02:54 .


#100
Recidiva

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skotie wrote...

Seriously though considering what most of your party would do to you is really funny to me how Alistair gets all the hate.


I don't think it has so much to do with starting conditions.  It has to do with Alistair having the biggest influence over the game outcome compared to any other NPC.  Therefore the highest chance of perceived betrayal and affecting a character's strategy. 

You can't possibly trust Morrigan.  You CAN trust Alistair.  Alistair is pretty much guaranteed to futz with your strategy or make you go WAY out of your way to accomodate him.  The whole game turns into an Alistair personal quest if you want him to be part of your strategy, such as providing an option to having a good ruler for Fereldan.  It's either him or Anora.  He requires a lot of attention and care or he's going to detonate on you like an ugly Templar mine.

You can do without any other NPC.  But you have to always deal with the "Alistair problem" during several inescapable junctions of the game.  And going against Alistair canon is bad for the player if it requires him to be convinced of something at some point.