149 réponses à ce sujet

[tmp7704]

fantasypisces wrote...

The oghren to Alistair comparison is a good one. Branka was Oghren's life, his wife, and after she disappeared he spent two years trying to organize a search party for her. Yet when you kill her he is upset, but ultimately understands the decision and stays with you. For Alistair, there is no understanding.

Oghren understands Branka has gone totally mad, and as such had to be dealt with* Learning just prior to it she's been cheating on him during this time probably did have some impact on his feelings, too. Alistair on the other hand doesn't understand why you'd want to take character who is nearly as mad as Branka as the part of your team, especially when it is not a necessary move.

These situations are if anything, opposite rather than similar. So to require Alistair behave just like Oghren... well, it doesn't make much sense.

*) and let's be honest, he's got no real motivation to stick with his wife's killer afterwards other than "the plot says so".

[robertthebard]

tmp7704 wrote...

fantasypisces wrote...

The oghren to Alistair comparison is a good one. Branka was Oghren's life, his wife, and after she disappeared he spent two years trying to organize a search party for her. Yet when you kill her he is upset, but ultimately understands the decision and stays with you. For Alistair, there is no understanding.

Oghren understands Branka has gone totally mad, and as such had to be dealt with* Learning just prior to it she's been cheating on him during this time probably did have some impact on his feelings, too. Alistair on the other hand doesn't understand why you'd want to take character who is nearly as mad as Branka as the part of your team, especially when it is not a necessary move.

These situations are if anything, opposite rather than similar. So to require Alistair behave just like Oghren... well, it doesn't make much sense.

*) and let's be honest, he's got no real motivation to stick with his wife's killer afterwards other than "the plot says so".

Let me put this in perspective for you.  Branka wasn't Ohgren's father/mother figure, she was his wife.  However, this is just the minor component to this, as she was also Orzammar's only living Paragon, which in Dwarven Society is equal to the Maker in human society.  Perhaps understanding of their religion, which is entirely possible if you actually read the codexes, instead of just collect them, would help you.  Of course, this also begs the question of if you even paid attention to any of the dialog concerning Branka from the first time you enter Orzammar, or, if as I suspect, you are just another that believes that anything Alistair does is perfectly acceptable?

Anyway, not only does Ohgren help you kill the only living God that Orzammar has, he also vouches for the authenticity of the crown you bring to the Assembly, giving just enough credibility to it to make your selection work.  The Alistair fan club will tell us, so many times that it's become cliche, that Loghain killed his father figure, so he is justified in everything he does.  We killed Ohgren's wife, and Paragon, and it's likely that he landed the final blow.

Regarding the "he only stays with you because of the plot" thing, why does Alistair stay?  Got people posting with -100 approval, which is complete disapproval, and yet he'll just follow you around like a lost puppy, until you refuse to kill Loghain.  Why is that?  Do you think that any of the other companions will?  Hey, I've got a suggestion for you, look for the "I think you should leave" dialog in Alistairs chats in camp.  Please don't try to throw "because of the plot" at me in a conversation regarding Alistair.  There are plenty of "crisis moments" where Alistair would be justified in leaving, or even trying to kill you, as Leliana does if you dump the blood in the ashes, I believe Wynne will also turn on you there, Sten will turn on you for going there in the first place.  Wynne will also try to kill you twice in the mage tower, if you don't do things her way.  Where does Alistair break?  He won't break anywhere but the Landsmeet.  Period.  He will complain about killing Connor, but will.  He'll complain about killing Wynne, but will.  He will even fight against Leliana at the urn.  So, what's plot got to do with Ohgren staying?  After Orzammar, there is really no reason for him to stay, yet he does.  He doesn't play any key roles in the story after Branka, so what in the plot keeps him there?  Oh, that's right, nothing.  He stays because he likes you a little bit, or even if he doesn't like you because everything about Orzammar is now bad as far as he's concerned, and why not?  He killed his wife/Paragon.  All in all, not a very convincing argument on your part, care to try again?

[fantasypisces]

tmp7704 wrote...

fantasypisces wrote...

The oghren to Alistair comparison is a good one. Branka was Oghren's life, his wife, and after she disappeared he spent two years trying to organize a search party for her. Yet when you kill her he is upset, but ultimately understands the decision and stays with you. For Alistair, there is no understanding.

Oghren understands Branka has gone totally mad, and as such had to be dealt with* Learning just prior to it she's been cheating on him during this time probably did have some impact on his feelings, too. Alistair on the other hand doesn't understand why you'd want to take character who is nearly as mad as Branka as the part of your team, especially when it is not a necessary move.

These situations are if anything, opposite rather than similar. So to require Alistair behave just like Oghren... well, it doesn't make much sense.

*) and let's be honest, he's got no real motivation to stick with his wife's killer afterwards other than "the plot says so".

My point is that Oghren listens to reason. You get disapproval when you kill Branka, why? Because he is pissed. Then he doesn't talk to you for a while in camp. Then he becomes a drunk trying to drown away his sorrow, then he moves past it when you get his personal quest. The point is that Oghren is willing to look past what he thinks and help the PC because it is the good thing to do. Even a traumatized drunken dwarf who has nothing going for him is willing to help stop the blight. What does Alistair do?..... he screams "f it I quit" and leaves. There are some good reasons to keep Loghain alive (especially if you metagame it). Do I keep him alive when I play? No, I'm usually playing a human noble and I take my vengeance, so I let Alistair get his. But if you were a Dwarf for instance, would you really feel very betrayed by Loghain, especially since you were forced to join the Grey Wardens, not really having any connection to them? I know my dwarf is going to let Loghain live.

But I'm rambling. Anyway, for my human noble, if Alistair let Howe live (presuming I was the follower) I would certainly be pissed, and yell and whail and think of the various ways I could kill Alistair, but I WOULD LISTEN TO HIS REASONS, then get on with killing the Archdemon. I see Oghren like that. He would have been happier if Branka lived, but he understands what needed to be done. Alistair does not, will not, listen.

[druidofwarp]

I never really thought he was too attached to Branka I mean all I could get out of him at max approval was that he liked the sex. He also moves on to Felsi pretty darn quickly. Maybe he was once attached to Branka alot more, but over the course of two years it slowly eroded their relationship the fact that she went insane helps too.

I know you took a disapproval hit if you kill her, but it's like more of a "i'm disappointed disapproval" not a frothing mad disapproval hit like i think you get if you blow it with Felsi on purpose.

Edit: If Howe was in my party camp, I'd kill him while he slept. Alistair should have done the same with Loghain, would've made an awesome turn of events

Modifié par druidofwarp, 20 décembre 2009 - 09:00 .

[robertthebard]

druidofwarp wrote...

I never really thought he was too attached to Branka I mean all I could get out of him at max approval was that he liked the sex. He also moves on to Felsi pretty darn quickly. Maybe he was once attached to Branka alot more, but over the course of two years it slowly eroded their relationship the fact that she went insane helps too.

I know you took a disapproval hit if you kill her, but it's like more of a "i'm disappointed disapproval" not a frothing mad disapproval hit like i think you get if you blow it with Felsi on purpose.

Edit: If Howe was in my party camp, I'd kill him while he slept. Alistair should have done the same with Loghain, would've made an awesome turn of events

I evidently picked all the right dialog stuff for Felsi, because he scored, I think.  Hard to say, with Oghren.  Seems like the hit for Branka was like -10 or something, I was like "WTF is that"...

[druidofwarp]

robertthebard wrote...

I evidently picked all the right dialog stuff for Felsi, because he scored, I think.  Hard to say, with Oghren.  Seems like the hit for Branka was like -10 or something, I was like "WTF is that"...

Lol same it took me forever to get the dialouge down, but hey I killed his wife I kinda owe him. I think he scores at the end though

Also maybe he was just like screw it with Branka, I mean he went through all that trouble and she pretty much blew him off. I wonder how much disapproval she got from Ohg

Modifié par druidofwarp, 20 décembre 2009 - 09:06 .

[Cybercat999]

robertthebard wrote...
I evidently picked all the right dialog stuff for Felsi, because he scored, I think.  Hard to say, with Oghren.  Seems like the hit for Branka was like -10 or something, I was like "WTF is that"...

I got huge disapproval with Felsi once, but I really did everything to undermine his efforts. She helps a lot too, I could almost feel the "girls giggling conspiration" going between us two. Was worth having Oghren pissed off just for the giggles.
Yeah, I get horrible like that. No wonder I dont get along too well with poor Alistair.

[Trooper Guy1]

I disliked the fool on my first playthrough. Right when I recieved Sten I tried my best to never use that useless whiner ever again.

My second playthrough I attempted to get to know him better, be his friend. By the end, gawd I couldn't WAIT for the Landsmeet so I could recieve handy-dandy Loghain.

[robertthebard]

I really thought about messing with him, but that's the first time I ever had him in the party long enough to get it. I usually do Orzammar last, so it's like on my way to the Landsmeet. That play through, I decided to do it first. It was a pain at first, but ultimately, there were a lot of memorable dialogs. It was definitely worth it. That little guy is a lot of fun, especially when he can't find his pants, while he's wearing them. Poor Dog.

[druidofwarp]

Except Dog doesn't know that Ohgren secretly has his pants... and it will be his downfall.

[tmp7704]

robertthebard wrote...

Anyway, not only does Ohgren help you kill the only living God that Orzammar has, he also vouches for the authenticity of the crown you bring to the Assembly, giving just enough credibility to it to make your selection work.  The Alistair fan club will tell us, so many times that it's become cliche, that Loghain killed his father figure, so he is justified in everything he does.  We killed Ohgren's wife, and Paragon, and it's likely that he landed the final blow.

Again though, what you have here is two opposite situations if anything. Oghren helps you kill the Orzammar heroic figure gone mad because he recognizes the necessity of it. Alistair on the other hand opposes the idea of leaving Ferelden equivalent of such "hero gone mad" alive when--in his eyes-- this person should be dealt with just like you did with Branka.

Really, if you cannot see difference between situation where you and another person in your party are in agreement about the course of action (no matter how it may pain personally that person) and one when the two of you aren't agreeing on what's being done... at least spare me the condescending attitude.

Modifié par tmp7704, 20 décembre 2009 - 09:46 .

[fantasypisces]

tmp7704 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Anyway, not only does Ohgren help you kill the only living God that Orzammar has, he also vouches for the authenticity of the crown you bring to the Assembly, giving just enough credibility to it to make your selection work.  The Alistair fan club will tell us, so many times that it's become cliche, that Loghain killed his father figure, so he is justified in everything he does.  We killed Ohgren's wife, and Paragon, and it's likely that he landed the final blow.

Again though, what you have here is two opposite situations if anything. Oghren helps you kill the Orzammar heroic figure gone mad because he recognizes the necessity of it. Alistair on the other hand opposes the idea of leaving Ferelden equivalent of such "hero gone mad" alive when--in his eyes-- this person should be dealt with just like you did with Branka.

Really, if you cannot see difference between situation where you and another person in your party are in agreement about the course of action (no matter how it may pain personally that person) and one when the two of you aren't agreeing on what's being done... at least spare me the condescending attitude.

I wasn't being condescending at all, but thanks for the hostility <_<

[robertthebard]

tmp7704 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Anyway, not only does Ohgren help you kill the only living God that Orzammar has, he also vouches for the authenticity of the crown you bring to the Assembly, giving just enough credibility to it to make your selection work.  The Alistair fan club will tell us, so many times that it's become cliche, that Loghain killed his father figure, so he is justified in everything he does.  We killed Ohgren's wife, and Paragon, and it's likely that he landed the final blow.

Again though, what you have here is two opposite situations if anything. Oghren helps you kill the Orzammar heroic figure gone mad because he recognizes the necessity of it. Alistair on the other hand opposes the idea of leaving Ferelden equivalent of such "hero gone mad" alive when--in his eyes-- this person should be dealt with just like you did with Branka.

Really, if you cannot see difference between situation where you and another person in your party are in agreement about the course of action (no matter how it may pain personally that person) and one when the two of you aren't agreeing on what's being done... at least spare me the condescending attitude.

Yeah, I'll field this one.  I'm not being condescending.  I am stating the facts as they are.  If this is your definition of condescending, then I guess I'll own it.  The fact is, Alistair had done nothing for my PC to demand that I follow his wishes.  From day 1, I was the new leader of the Grey Wardens in Ferelden.  All decisions were mine to make.  I couldn't even ask him to leave, if I was so inclined.  It's not an option in any of his dialog.  Morrigan has a plot after the Landsmeet too, and I can kick her out, or turn her into the Templars.  But not Alistair.  He's supposed to be my fellow Grey Warden.  According to him, the Grey Wardens are an order of Paladins that place duty and honor above all else but drinking games in that damn fortress that I still can't spell.  We all know this is far from true, but Alistair doesn't.  When I make a decision, based on all available information, that paralells the way I joined the Wardens in the first place, you know, killed a bunch of soldiers and a nobleman's son, Alistair decides it's time to steal the crown, simply to kill someone.

I have discussed this to great length in this thread, and others.  I realize that the evidence presented here rains on the Alistair can do no wrong parade.  However, what part of "duty that cannot be forsworn" doesn't apply to him?  He is not outraged that Cailin is dead, nor at the catastrophic loss of life at Ostagar.  He is mad because Duncan is dead.  This has been the anchor position for the Alistair fan club since I've been reading these discussions.   So how is killing a man's wife, that he's spent more than 2 years trying to get people to look for, who also happens to be a paragon any different than Duncan being dead?  You think Ohgren doesn't think the dwarven people have abandoned her to her fate?  The very first time you see him he's harping on that very fact to a warrior in the Diamond Quarter.  After his little tirade, you can actually have an indepth dialog with that gentleman about the whole situation.  So yeah, I'm not going to buy they are opposite situations, other than one person dies, and one gets to live, if you can call it that.  Loghain now has to carry the guilt with him, that he obviously feels, until the taint overwhelms him, because on this particular play through, he slept with Morrigan.  I did do a game where he got to die a hero, needed the achievement, but Alistair was king that time.

BTW, Alistair's awe inspiring speech is exactly the same one Anora gives, only it uses brother instead of husband, and you don't have to listen to Anora's squealy voice.  However, don't let me rain on your parade with truth.  You can be safe and secure in your save games with happy Alistair.  I have some of those myself.  However, the way he went about things in the game I reference for these posts, and that gave me the dislike I have for him as a person, not so much as a character, to illicit the responses he does speaks volumes about his writing, are the only things that matter to me.  If the fact that I don't like him, or his attitude, or the whiney nature that he has bothers you, the simply quit reading my posts.  In fact, if you love Alistair so much, as somebody recommended earlier in this post, simply don't read them.  You are surely not going to change my mind about what kind of man he really is, and I have no desire to try to change yours.

[druidofwarp]

robertthebard wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Anyway, not only does Ohgren help you kill the only living God that Orzammar has, he also vouches for the authenticity of the crown you bring to the Assembly, giving just enough credibility to it to make your selection work.  The Alistair fan club will tell us, so many times that it's become cliche, that Loghain killed his father figure, so he is justified in everything he does.  We killed Ohgren's wife, and Paragon, and it's likely that he landed the final blow.

Again though, what you have here is two opposite situations if anything. Oghren helps you kill the Orzammar heroic figure gone mad because he recognizes the necessity of it. Alistair on the other hand opposes the idea of leaving Ferelden equivalent of such "hero gone mad" alive when--in his eyes-- this person should be dealt with just like you did with Branka.

Really, if you cannot see difference between situation where you and another person in your party are in agreement about the course of action (no matter how it may pain personally that person) and one when the two of you aren't agreeing on what's being done... at least spare me the condescending attitude.

Yeah, I'll field this one.  I'm not being condescending.  I am stating the facts as they are.  If this is your definition of condescending, then I guess I'll own it.  The fact is, Alistair had done nothing for my PC to demand that I follow his wishes.  From day 1, I was the new leader of the Grey Wardens in Ferelden.  All decisions were mine to make.  I couldn't even ask him to leave, if I was so inclined.  It's not an option in any of his dialog.  Morrigan has a plot after the Landsmeet too, and I can kick her out, or turn her into the Templars.  But not Alistair.  He's supposed to be my fellow Grey Warden.  According to him, the Grey Wardens are an order of Paladins that place duty and honor above all else but drinking games in that damn fortress that I still can't spell.  We all know this is far from true, but Alistair doesn't.  When I make a decision, based on all available information, that paralells the way I joined the Wardens in the first place, you know, killed a bunch of soldiers and a nobleman's son, Alistair decides it's time to steal the crown, simply to kill someone.

I have discussed this to great length in this thread, and others.  I realize that the evidence presented here rains on the Alistair can do no wrong parade.  However, what part of "duty that cannot be forsworn" doesn't apply to him?  He is not outraged that Cailin is dead, nor at the catastrophic loss of life at Ostagar.  He is mad because Duncan is dead.  This has been the anchor position for the Alistair fan club since I've been reading these discussions.   So how is killing a man's wife, that he's spent more than 2 years trying to get people to look for, who also happens to be a paragon any different than Duncan being dead?  You think Ohgren doesn't think the dwarven people have abandoned her to her fate?  The very first time you see him he's harping on that very fact to a warrior in the Diamond Quarter.  After his little tirade, you can actually have an indepth dialog with that gentleman about the whole situation.  So yeah, I'm not going to buy they are opposite situations, other than one person dies, and one gets to live, if you can call it that.  Loghain now has to carry the guilt with him, that he obviously feels, until the taint overwhelms him, because on this particular play through, he slept with Morrigan.  I did do a game where he got to die a hero, needed the achievement, but Alistair was king that time.

BTW, Alistair's awe inspiring speech is exactly the same one Anora gives, only it uses brother instead of husband, and you don't have to listen to Anora's squealy voice.  However, don't let me rain on your parade with truth.  You can be safe and secure in your save games with happy Alistair.  I have some of those myself.  However, the way he went about things in the game I reference for these posts, and that gave me the dislike I have for him as a person, not so much as a character, to illicit the responses he does speaks volumes about his writing, are the only things that matter to me.  If the fact that I don't like him, or his attitude, or the whiney nature that he has bothers you, the simply quit reading my posts.  In fact, if you love Alistair so much, as somebody recommended earlier in this post, simply don't read them.  You are surely not going to change my mind about what kind of man he really is, and I have no desire to try to change yours.

Wait you can turn Morrigan into the templars?

[robertthebard]

I believe you can turn her into Gregoir, or however you spell it. I haven't actually tried it yet. The Templar at Lothering won't take her though, already tried...

[Baalzie]

tmp7704 wrote...

Dying soldier:
We don't have time for this. See he is already dead
Alistair: Does the word insane mean anything to you?
PC: Just shut up and follow my lead!
Alistair: Remind me not to get injured around you.
Alistair disapproves: -3

Ok buddy, you keep your idealic image of the Grey Wardens, I'm soooooo sorry that my character had no interest in joining them.

Wait, you're upset and disappointed because You love the guy  that approve killing in cold blood a person who was fighting on your own side, be it fat and tardy, and who could be instead either left alone or Regurgitaded as cows do to decent condition should you so choose?

The nerve, indeed.

Love taking stuff out of context or just stupid?
He ofc meant that losing 10(!!!!!) points for disliking wardens while ONLY losing 3 for being a coldblooded murderer was wrong...
Dolt!
People like You are the reason for all this hate on the Internet...
Like a priest refusing to heal!
You are SO Björn Gustafsson!

*Just wanted to show what changing people's texts does when quoting, aswell as pointing out that You epicfailed seeing the poster's point, he said the exact opposite more or less*

[Jman5]

For some reason we are much more forgiving of a bad guy who does something good for once as opposed to a good guy who does something bad for once. Darth Vader is a prime example. The guy butchered countless innocents, but is redeemed when he saves Luke and kills the Emperor.



I think this is why so many people defend Loghain and at the same time jump down Alistair's throat.

[Herr Uhl]

Baalzie wrote...

You are SO Björn Gustafsson!

No need for namecalling. Calling someone that is just mean.

[robertthebard]

Jman5 wrote...

For some reason we are much more forgiving of a bad guy who does something good for once as opposed to a good guy who does something bad for once. Darth Vader is a prime example. The guy butchered countless innocents, but is redeemed when he saves Luke and kills the Emperor.

I think this is why so many people defend Loghain and at the same time jump down Alistair's throat.

The sad thing is, I don't see me as defending Loghain, I have said more than once that the man is a right bastard.  I just don't like Alistair, and have made my reasons abundantly clear.

[Medhia Nox]

Ever here that parable of the "Prodigal Son" Jman 5? We knew about this infatuation about 2000 years ago.



And Alistair is not good, but I'm not arguing this point with fans. Infatuation is a many-headed hydra.

[tmp7704]

fantasypisces wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

I wasn't being condescending at all, but thanks for the hostility <_<

And i never said you were. If you'd only be so nice to take note of the name of person i was actually replying to..?

Modifié par tmp7704, 21 décembre 2009 - 01:52 .

[fantasypisces]

tmp7704 wrote...

fantasypisces wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

I wasn't being condescending at all, but thanks for the hostility <_<

And i never said you were. If you'd only be so nice to take note of the name of person i was actually replying to..?

Yeah noticed that after I submitted, thought you were quoting me, I think I was looking at something else

[cutieyum]

SInce joining this forum, I have been a RECIDIVA fan.

I love her postings. I, too, would like a subscription to her newsletter for xmas. 

[cutieyum]

On Oghren:

* If Oghren is taken to the top of the mountain on the Ashes quest, you get to learn a lot about how he feels about Branka, and his reponsability about the failure of his marriage. He basically tells the guardian "no need to tell me, I f'ed up because of a, b and c."

* He is a man, well dwarf, well aware of his personal failures. You may persuade him to kill Branka with little consequence on his approval, if you have high coercion and/or cunning.

* His new romance with Felsi allows him to rebuild his life. A new chance, midwifed by the PC. He has to abandon Ozammar and become casteless because of the monstruosities he has witness during his search for Branka, and the lost of all his honor before and after killing his wife.

Oghren is well written, and yes, more knowledgeable about himself than Alistair. The whole campaign may feel at times, like Alistair's story, since he is so pivotal for the Landsmeet. Which makes Alistair's naivete dangerous and potentially evil, because he is undereducated for the kingship, socially and politically inept. The Landsmeet decisions allowed to the PC, in my opinion, are very limited and not politically savvy (felt worst playing Noble human). At this junction Alistair is a loose cannon, more of a liability than an advantage. He really pissed me off during my first playthrough, I had done everything to please him, and he then threatens to destroy and unstabilize future alliances because of his 'revenge.' And after he gets his revenge and dumps the Dalish PC, I wanted an option to slap him. The Landsmeet was not the time to act like an angsty teenager. I guess my Dalish PC was at fault for 'indulging' him during that very long playthrough and not pushing him to 'man up,' but why should the PC be responsible for his immaturity, love-hungry neediness?

Up to the Landsmeet, I was immersed in the game. I wanted the best possible outcomes for all of Thedas, not just for my petty grivances, and then my romance option decides to go nuclear.  *le sigh* The PC was the one getting used for everyone's petty schemes, and had surprisingly very constricted choices, regardless of Origin Story.

Thankfully, playing a female human noble, I felt I could control the outcome for Ferelden for 'goodness,' by marrying the boy-king. But alas, my pixel-crush on Alistair ended after the first playthrough.

[tmp7704]

robertthebard wrote...

So yeah, I'm not going to buy they are opposite situations, other than one person dies, and one gets to live, if you can call it that.

The difference is again, in one of these situations you and Oghren actually agree what course of action should be taken. In the other situation you and Alistair disagree about what should be done. Therefore it's not surprising Oghren is overall much calmer about the whole thing and he doesn't get in your face about it -- as overall you didn't do anything he'd consider to be morally wrong.

If you prefer to overlook this, i guess we can just agree to disagree.