624 réponses à ce sujet

[Costin_Razvan]

The differences between the two are:

1) Geralt is generally more intelligent and knowledgeable then Shepard could ever ****ing claim.
2) Geralt was never set a blank character, he is just Geralt. He won't change certain views he has.
3) Despite point 2 Geralt has variety in the things he can say. Have you ever talked with Loredo? Henselt? KImbolt? Dandelion about Letho?

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 29 juillet 2012 - 04:53 .

[Blacklash93]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

I wouldn't consider 3 choice dialogue in ME2 rare. Somebody go and pull up the P/R guide from the wikia.

I wouldn't call having only 2 choices rare either in ME2. It was in the definitely the direction that led to what we got in ME3.

Anyway this is dumb. RPG players want choice and ME3 stripped so much of it away that it made Shepard completely uninteresting as a PC and his generally derpy lines didn't help on that end. Did anyone ever once complain about the conversations in ME1 and 2 not flowing well? Newsflash Bioware: Your fans wanted more of the depth they got in ME1. The very thing that made this series so successful.

Bioware's inconsistent, devolutionary style of PC dialogue really makes going through the Mass Effect series kind of sad to do. In ME1 they say it is your Shepard, in ME2 they say Shepard is their character and we're just picking one of the different versions of him given to us, then in ME3 they go all-out and Shepard is railroaded even further down that path to the bare-minimum of conversation choices. With each one Bioware was alienating the large RPG fanbase and diverting from what this series started as more and more. It wasn't an improvement but in reality the very stripping down of this series as an RPG. The role I was playing became more and more shrunken down and less and less relevant.

And I don't appretiate this BSing of doing this for the sake of giving the bigger choices more investment. Yes Bioware, the diverging paths in ME3 (and even ME as a whole) were so different from each other beyond cameos.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 29 juillet 2012 - 05:29 .

[TheDarkestofPoets]

1) Totally irrelevant and stupid, even it were true. Being more knowledgeable than Shepherd is no excuse for auto-dialogue, if auto-dialogue is indeed a perceived flaw. If anything it should give you more options for how to address situations. In the end, you generally get 2.

2)He isn't a blank character by neither is he totally established, as our decisions throughout the game determine whether or not Geralt is either more true neutral or chaotic good. (I use those terms loosely, as moral ambiguity is one of the more endearing aspects of the game. I feel if any moral paradigms in terms of categorization can be applied, its those two.)

3) Yes he has a variety of things he can say on very rare occasion. For the most part you get two different ways to address a character, same as Mass Effect 3. You get far more chances to impact the flow of conversations in Mass Effect 3 though. Again, I don't have a problem with auto-dialogue. I think it makes the storytelling more concise.

4) I love the Witcher 2, but it has plenty of problems, and I just find it funny how selective fans are in terms of how they critique things.

[Chromie]

TheDarkestofPoets wrote...

It makes me laugh that everyone sucks the Witcher 2's dick, and yet they never critique the auto-dialogue in that game. I played through it, and loved it, but it had even more auto-dialogue than Mass Effect 3 did. In fact, I feel like it served the exact purpose Weekes described, which was to ensure a natural cinematic flow to the conversations. For all the **** we give Mass Effect 3. the dialogue was generally quite strong, and I think the auto-dialogue succeeded to this extent, despite how much people want to ****. The game has far more pressing problems than auto-dialogue so I'm sort of at a loss for why it was ever a big deal.

Lol.

Modifié par Skelter192, 29 juillet 2012 - 05:13 .

[xsdob]

^That's better.

Don't post like you did earlier. and thank you for toning it down.

Modifié par xsdob, 29 juillet 2012 - 05:20 .

[Han Shot First]

I think Bioware has the right idea with autodialogue, it is just wasn't always executed well.

The ME1 style of dialogue where Shepard says a single sentence to prompt dialogue from another character, only for Shep to reply with yet another single sentence, just doesn't flow very well. It doesn't feel natural and tends to both detract from the story and make the player character feel like he or she doesn't have much personality.

In ME3 however there were times when Shepard spoke without any input from the player, or spoke too long without the player being involved.

I think going forward Bioware should aim for the middle ground between the two. The player should have control over what Shepard says but the dialogue should flow naturally and feel cinematic. In other words the player should direct whether paragraphs of dialogue are paragon or renegade, rather than being prompted to make that decision for every single sentence in that paragraph.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 29 juillet 2012 - 05:20 .

[Conquerthecity]

Dialogue choices are one of the main reason I play Bioware games. Keep taking that away and well...another nail in the coffin and more reason to just watch DLC on youtube.

[N147]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Auto-Dialogue = More natural dialogue flow?

Why? Was everyone in ME1 and 2 a retard who spend 10 seconds in silence staring at the screen before they finally picked a response each time?

Every ME vid on youtube seems to suggest this sooo..... I know I try my very best to make smooth transitions between dialogue, I don't need Bioware to do that for me. My OCD is so bad that I would actually contemplate restarting a playthrough if I didn't choose the right question/response at the right time, I know completely insane.....

[chemiclord]

Blacklash93 wrote...

Did anyone ever once complain about the conversations in ME1 and 2 not flowing well?

Actually yes.  Fans did.  VERY VERY loudly, at that.  What would become the BSN before Mass Effect 2 had several topics about how unnecessarily cumbersome the dialogue wheel was; constantly requiring you to stop every 10 seconds to make a choice... and how 5 "choices" really all wound up saying the same thing.

[Blacklash93]

chemiclord wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

Did anyone ever once complain about the conversations in ME1 and 2 not flowing well?

Actually yes.  Fans did.  VERY VERY loudly, at that.  What would become the BSN before Mass Effect 2 had several topics about how unnecessarily cumbersome the dialogue wheel was; constantly requiring you to stop every 10 seconds to make a choice... and how 5 "choices" really all wound up saying the same thing.

These people certainly wouldn't like Dragon Age: Origins, then. If you're complaining about having too much choice with your character you probably shouldn't be playing RPGs. It's not like the dialogue choices weren't coded by position on the wheel so you could instatntly know where the choice of your preferred alignment and tone was.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 29 juillet 2012 - 05:37 .

[wantedman dan]

chemiclord wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

Did anyone ever once complain about the conversations in ME1 and 2 not flowing well?

Actually yes.  Fans did.  VERY VERY loudly, at that.  What would become the BSN before Mass Effect 2 had several topics about how unnecessarily cumbersome the dialogue wheel was; constantly requiring you to stop every 10 seconds to make a choice... and how 5 "choices" really all wound up saying the same thing.

Well, Bioware's model thus far has been to simply eliminate everything that causes strife, rather than improve upon it. Icing on the cake, I suppose.

[TookYoCookies]

Bioware Fail cannon.

[KiwiQuiche]

TheDarkestofPoets wrote...

It makes me laugh that everyone sucks the Witcher 2's dick, and yet they never critique the auto-dialogue in that game. I played through it, and loved it, but it had even more auto-dialogue than Mass Effect 3 did. In fact, I feel like it served the exact purpose Weekes described, which was to ensure a natural cinematic flow to the conversations. For all the **** we give Mass Effect 3. the dialogue was generally quite strong, and I think the auto-dialogue succeeded to this extent, despite how much people want to ****. The game has far more pressing problems than auto-dialogue so I'm sort of at a loss for why it was ever a big deal.

Oh come on, remember the awesome "We fight or we die" crap we got right at the start?

That was a pretty good indication of the type of dialogue we would get.

[Ieldra]

I think autodialogue itself is not so much the problem rather than the fact that Shepard says things our Shepards would never say because of it.

Case in question: "The Citadel? The fight's here." That's just stupid and whoever wants to play a Shepard with an IQ above 80 needs a choice to avoid that. It doesn't happen all that often, but when it does, it's jarring to a degree that it catapults you out of the game world.

When Shepard just talks about mission objectives, autodialogue is usually OK. We need a choice whenever a piece of dialogue says something about Shepard as a person, in addition to when a plot decision is to be made.

[McBeath]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Case in question: "The Citadel? The fight's here." That's just stupid and whoever wants to play a Shepard with an IQ above 80 needs a choice to avoid that. It doesn't happen all that often, but when it does, it's jarring to a degree that it catapults you out of the game world.

See this I have to disagree with.  Shep is a marine, a career special forces soldier.  Why is it so hard to imagine him/her saying that in response to being told they have to leave and be a diplomat instead of fighting along side his commander and friend?

Shep reinforces this later in Purgatory with Vega, when he say's that while he's seen a hell of a lot he's still a solider like them...

This makes him more believable to me.  Shep isn't as blank a slate as some people think.  End of the day Shep is still a marine, and needs to act like it. 

By the way I have friends that serve in the military and they would talk like that.  Have actually refered to combat situations in similar tones before...  They indeed have IQ's higher than you'd think.

Cheers.  McBeath.

[RenegonSQ]

People...

Shep is not your character, he's Bioware's character.

/thread

[Ieldra]

McBeath wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Case in question: "The Citadel? The fight's here." That's just stupid and whoever wants to play a Shepard with an IQ above 80 needs a choice to avoid that. It doesn't happen all that often, but when it does, it's jarring to a degree that it catapults you out of the game world.

See this I have to disagree with.  Shep is a marine, a career special forces soldier.  Why is it so hard to imagine him/her saying that in response to being told they have to leave and be a diplomat instead of fighting along side his commander and friend?

Because Shepard is not stupid? Someone has to get help. Shepard has to know that. It would be different if the line was "Send someone else. I'm just a soldier", but to not acknowledge that the Alliance can't win this on its own is stupid.

Shep reinforces this later in Purgatory with Vega, when he say's that while he's seen a hell of a lot he's still a solider like them...

Did you notice that you have a choice there?

By the way I have friends that serve in the military and they would talk like that.  Have actually refered to combat situations in similar tones before...  They indeed have IQ's higher than you'd think.

Would they talk the same in a situation they can't win on their own, where someone must go and get help?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 29 juillet 2012 - 08:06 .

[zeypher]

Main problem with auto dialogue is that shepard becomes a full retard when ever he is speaking on his own. If the auto dialogue was intelligent and shepard actually acted like a spec ops member in it we would be fine. But every time he opens his mouth on his own he comes of asa retard. That makes you wonder how the hell is this person supposed to be a meber of an elite force.

[Grubas]

RenegonSQ wrote...

People...

Shep is not your character, he's Bioware's character.

/thread

This and "artistic integrity" makes any form of critic redundant. 

[v TricKy v]

zeypher wrote...

Main problem with auto dialogue is that shepard becomes a full retard when ever he is speaking on his own. If the auto dialogue was intelligent and shepard actually acted like a spec ops member in it we would be fine. But every time he opens his mouth on his own he comes of asa retard. That makes you wonder how the hell is this person supposed to be a meber of an elite force.

I agree with this. They seem to have forgotten that Shepard is not some random merc but an elite soldier and commanding officer. The best examples are this 
"This isnt about strategy or tactics." "We fight or we die"
These lines make Shepard look like a complete moron

But my assumption seems to be true that Bioware wants to move away from RPGs and move more in the direction of a action packed interactive movie.
The thing is I played all of the their games because I could play them however I wanted but if they think it´s better to disregard player choice and focus more on "movie flow and epicness" than it seems that I have to part ways with Bioware.
I liked games like Heavy rain which were basically interactive movies and had choices which influenced the whole game but they had to sacrifice almost all gameplay to make it happen.

[Jassu1979]

See, my first contact with auto-dialogue in the Mass Effect universe was through Kasumi and Zaeed in ME2 - and both of these were such frustrating and ultimately boring experiences that I ignored them completely.

Those weren't conversations or character interactions - they were the equivalent of pressing a button on a talking toy, which then gives you one out of ten randomly shuffled catchphrases.

That is what the crew conversations in ME3 felt like, pretty much ALL the time.
Now, granted, there *were* some great scenes: drunk Tali, drunk Ashley, Garrus and Liara trading war stories in the officer's mess.
But all in all, it wasn't really like having a conversation. It was pressing a button on the aforementioned talking toy.

[SpamBot2000]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

The differences between the two are:

1) Geralt is generally more intelligent and knowledgeable then Shepard could ever ****ing claim.
2) Geralt was never set a blank character, he is just Geralt. He won't change certain views he has.
3) Despite point 2 Geralt has variety in the things he can say. Have you ever talked with Loredo? Henselt? KImbolt? Dandelion about Letho?

Not to mention he is based on a whole series of books written about him before any games were made. The writers of the games can't just make him go against what that character is.

[lillitheris]

xsdob wrote...

I figured it out when I picked the renegade option of "what's the point" With the council and said, "You've made your decision, I won't waste my breath."

I wanted to make a stronger case than that, so I reloaded and picked the paragon option, and it said, "You've made your decision, I won't waste my breath."

This is just as bad as any auto-dialouge.

It’s not. It’s not ideal, no, but you fail to understand something about very basic RPG or even general psychology (no surprise there, sorry). Patrick Weekes doesn’t understand this, either. The character lives in the player’s head.

If I choose a certain dialogue option (and the actual dialogue line is interpretable as being in line with that), then that has a fundamental effect on how I interpret the result. I’m either telling them to go screw themselves, or reluctantly giving up after trying hard.

If you’re a Wheels of Barfight player, you typically care more about the narrow result than the path that takes you there (which, by the way, is especially hilarious considering all the “it’s about the journey” tripe). In other words, it’s ‘just a game’, and what matters is beating it.

[jetfire118]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Auto-Dialogue = More natural dialogue flow?

Why? Was everyone in ME1 and 2 a retard who spend 10 seconds in silence staring at the screen before they finally picked a response each time?

LOL i remeber doing that all the time in ME2 sat there like duuuuuuuuuuhhhhhh *drool* xD

[Generic Screen Name]

Stuff like this is why I think RPG protagonists should definitely NOT be voiced.