624 réponses à ce sujet

[clarkusdarkus]

To be fair i preffered the dialogue in ME3 than the previous 2 games, i hate everything else about the game but the dialogue was more to my taste.

[RavenEyry]

This sounds rather sensible actually. Every single line being a choice was a bit pointless at times in one, but they've noticed that thee was hardly any player input in 3, so we might get more choices in DLCs.

[Edorian27]

Autodialogue can be okay.. see "The WItcher 1". They had a lot of Autodialogue too, it didn't turn out to be bad.

BUT the main differenct ot ME3 ist, you had the feeling to actually work through a living world, where you can talk to random people about the places you're at, or recent events, or just hook up with them.

SO BW can keep the Autodialogue as long as they double the choices Shepard can make and the topics he can discuss with people.
Remember that every conversation, meaningless or not, adds to the atmosphere of the scenario and characterises Shepard, so it is important, and

@bioware: Worth investing time and money in.
You'll be measured by the love and details put in the game and by giving a great roleplay experience shaping the own character, not by the flow of the game at the end of the day..

[Eain]

Weekes's tweets indicate to me that Bioware has quite simply abandoned the good old RPG dialogue concept where the players picks what's said in favour of a more cinematic approach.

I could support that, if the storytelling justified it, but it doesn't. I'll go with autodialogue when the writers actually know how to write convincing lines and I don't cringe at horrible one-liners every second conversation. And I'd go with autodialogue if the story was actually any good and I cared for seeing its end. Neither were the case in ME3.

Look at other games with autodialogue. All of them are either shooters or Deus Ex Human Revolution. Let's conclude for starters that ME3 cannot even compare to DX:HR, and let's then conclude that within shooters most storytelling trilogies that use autodialogue (Gears of War, Halo mostly) have never given us choice in what to say to begin with, so the protagonist is always in character.

But you can't just let us run around for the first two games letting us decide who Shepard is and then suddenly take over the wheel for the third installment. It's just not done.

[paul165]

Mr.House wrote...

Really I think the massive issue with auto dialog in ME3 was when it came to emotions. Earth and Thessia ending come to mind. These are two hotspots where alot of auto dialog hates comes from(plus the Vega flirting) Flirting and emotions should never be auto, at all.

This I can certainly support - one of the reasons I am discouraged that the twitter posts suggest that significant amounts of autodialogue will continue and the defination of character tone as "unimportant".

[Conniving_Eagle]

Someone mentioned it before, but the problem with auto-dialogue in Mass Effect 3 is that it takes the reigns from the player, and there are many instances where Shepard acts out of character. Maybe I'm just some conservative radical when I say I preferred the 'cheesy' ME2 dialogue where you would have 3-5 options in a conversation as opposed to just 1-2. I liked having a neutral option if I didn't know what to think of an issue, or I was indifferent towards it. By the way, the neutral option needs to come back, auto-dialogue or not. There was no justifiable reason to completely take it out of the game.

[lillitheris]

Edorian27 wrote...

Autodialogue can be okay.. see "The WItcher 1". They had a lot of Autodialogue too, it didn't turn out to be bad.

There’s a huge difference: Geralt is a pre-defined character, with little leeway. It’s relatively easy to write autodialogue. Shepard isn’t (or, you know, wasn’t until ME3).

[Fredvdp]

I felt I had enough control over Shepard's actions, but not their emotions. I didn't care about that dead kid, I liked Joker's inappropriate joke, I was definitely in the mood to hear EDI's joke about a penguin in the desert, and I wanted to mourn Mordin's death but only got the option to mourn the VS or no one in particular. This is what they should address.

ME1 dialog system was also very flawed with three options often leading to the same line. I think ME2 did it best. There was auto-dialog, but not too much, and I felt I could shape Shepard's personality adequately.

Modifié par Fredvdp, 29 juillet 2012 - 10:51 .

[Raizo]

Jassu1979 wrote...

See, my first contact with auto-dialogue in the Mass Effect universe was through Kasumi and Zaeed in ME2 - and both of these were such frustrating and ultimately boring experiences that I ignored them completely.

Those weren't conversations or character interactions - they were the equivalent of pressing a button on a talking toy, which then gives you one out of ten randomly shuffled catchphrases.

That is what the crew conversations in ME3 felt like, pretty much ALL the time.
Now, granted, there *were* some great scenes: drunk Tali, drunk Ashley, Garrus and Liara trading war stories in the officer's mess.
But all in all, it wasn't really like having a conversation. It was pressing a button on the aforementioned talking toy.

This isn't so much a auto dialogue issue as it is an issue with how ME3 handles interacting with squad mates and npcs all together. On an intelectual level I realise that in terms of content all these conversations are just as good as they were in ME1 and ME2 but because of the rather passive nature of these dialogue scenes I just don't feel emotionally engaged in anything that anyone has to say, I'm not really participating in conversations with npcs, I'm picking up backgound noise that I don't have to pay attention to. As for squad mates, you walk up to them, press the talk button, press it again and gain until Shepard is dismissed and then you walk away from these conversations feeling as if nothing really happened at all, it's like feeding a starving man, cotton candy, it does not really fill you up.


As for Patrick Weekes' original tweet, my original reaction wasn't positive. After thinking about it for a few hours however he does have a point and it's not like he's saying there won't be more choice in future dlc's, he has acknowledged that Bioware do recognise that they got the balance wrong in ME3 and that they are hoping to address this in the future.

[Raizo]

Fredvdp wrote...

I felt I had enough control over Shepard's actions, but not their emotions. I didn't care about that dead kid, I liked Joker's inappropriate joke, I was definitely in the mood to hear EDI's joke about a penguin in the desert, and I wanted to mourn Mordin's death but only got the option to mourn the VS or no one in particular. This is what they should address.

ME1 dialog system was also very flawed with three options often leading to the same line. I think ME2 did it best. There was auto-dialog, but not too much, and I felt I could shape Shepard's personality adequately.

And here in lies the problem with Patrick Weekes' original tweet, the auto dialogue can work if the scrpit is up to scratch and 'we' gamers are alowed to roleplay within it's confines. I scream ( yes I scream ) everytime Liara's father calls Shepard Liara's boyfriend/girlfriend, that single line breaks the game completly for me, it's no longer my Shepard at all.

[crimzontearz]

Nyoka wrote...You can highlight the "but also learning" part too if you want to balance it out a little.

oh they learned? you mean like they learned to strip rpg features and insert auto dialogue? yeah I trust their learning

[Tekkez]

I personally prefer to choose all the dialogue lines myself. Makes me more connected to the character, feels like it's my story and it's what I've grown up with in RPGs. Watching auto-dialogue scenes that "my" character has makes me feel as if I'm just playing someone elses story, with the only difference being both extremes, renegade or paragon.

I guess Bioware have forgotten their roots of Baldurs Gate and Neverwinter Nights and we should expect more like ME3 in the future?

[Wulfram]

Raizo wrote...
. I scream ( yes I scream ) everytime Liara's father calls Shepard Liara's boyfriend/girlfriend, that single line breaks the game completly for me, it's no longer my Shepard at all.

That's a bug.

[hot_heart]

I won't go overboard in my reaction, because it can be pretty hard to clarify what you're saying in 140 character bursts as Weekes was attempting on Twitter. I respect the guy, and he's speaking as part of a team, and at least he's making some effort to respond.

Though, having said that, the claim about the 'natural flow of dialogue' is an interesting one. Because gamers have become attuned to automatically reconciling any of the regular oddities in a game's presentation, we're not bothered by characters that don't react to us until we press the button to initiate a conversation, and nor do they seem to care when we completely invade their personal space. Plus, we don't mind any unnatural pauses. Our brains filter all this perfectly fine.

I can see that sometimes the reuse and reordering of lines, to ensure a conversation stays on track, can make for odd jumps in tone in the voices but, again, we're used to smoothing over these sorts of things anyway.

Modifié par hot_heart, 29 juillet 2012 - 12:43 .

[circe]

I just read the new tweets and I appreciate Mr. Weekes' general frankness on the subject. And I also get it about having to prioritizing things for a game of this scale, budget, time, logistics, etc. My issue is I feel like they put the priority on the wrong things. I'm not going to say it's the whole game, but there are definite times when I felt like they tried too hard for the shiny shooter game and forgot they were making an RPG. I want to role play my Shepard, even at the cost of slowing a scene down a little, instead of playing the Shepard the writers decided would be most appropriate for that scene/line/game.

[LinksOcarina]

Jassu1979 wrote...

See, my first contact with auto-dialogue in the Mass Effect universe was through Kasumi and Zaeed in ME2 - and both of these were such frustrating and ultimately boring experiences that I ignored them completely.

Those weren't conversations or character interactions - they were the equivalent of pressing a button on a talking toy, which then gives you one out of ten randomly shuffled catchphrases.

That is what the crew conversations in ME3 felt like, pretty much ALL the time.
Now, granted, there *were* some great scenes: drunk Tali, drunk Ashley, Garrus and Liara trading war stories in the officer's mess.
But all in all, it wasn't really like having a conversation. It was pressing a button on the aforementioned talking toy.

I just have to ask, but so?

You aren't having a conversation, you are listening to a conversation between characters you should care about. It gives the squad mates character, not Shepard. Shepard is just listening in, so the conversations are heard from his point of view.

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 29 juillet 2012 - 01:21 .

[Asch Lavigne]

I wonder if future DLC will have less auto-dialogue. I hope so.

Modifié par Asch Lavigne, 29 juillet 2012 - 01:28 .

[WindfishDude]

Edorian27 wrote...

Autodialogue can be okay.. see "The WItcher 1". They had a lot of Autodialogue too, it didn't turn out to be bad.

BUT the main differenct ot ME3 ist, you had the feeling to actually work through a living world, where you can talk to random people about the places you're at, or recent events, or just hook up with them.

SO BW can keep the Autodialogue as long as they double the choices Shepard can make and the topics he can discuss with people.
Remember that every conversation, meaningless or not, adds to the atmosphere of the scenario and characterises Shepard, so it is important, and

@bioware: Worth investing time and money in.
You'll be measured by the love and details put in the game and by giving a great roleplay experience shaping the own character, not by the flow of the game at the end of the day..

I agree. At the end of the day, this money-foucs is what brought down ME3 in my opinion. The hacked-up dialogue just reeks of cutting corners and trying to save time and money. Did those resources go to good use elsewhere? I wouldn't know, but I see the gaping hole where they decided 'no more money for that feature'.
I realize ME3 is a crazy expensive project, but when they player starts noticing where something gets limited because of financial decisions, something is very wrong.

[Chaotic-Fusion]

"Depends on the scenes, but more often, it reflects the Para/Rene choice you make early in the scene."

Did this really happen? I honestly think the auto-dialogue was the same regardless of para/rene scores or previous choices.

[WindfishDude]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Jassu1979 wrote...

See, my first contact with auto-dialogue in the Mass Effect universe was through Kasumi and Zaeed in ME2 - and both of these were such frustrating and ultimately boring experiences that I ignored them completely.

Those weren't conversations or character interactions - they were the equivalent of pressing a button on a talking toy, which then gives you one out of ten randomly shuffled catchphrases.

That is what the crew conversations in ME3 felt like, pretty much ALL the time.
Now, granted, there *were* some great scenes: drunk Tali, drunk Ashley, Garrus and Liara trading war stories in the officer's mess.
But all in all, it wasn't really like having a conversation. It was pressing a button on the aforementioned talking toy.

I just have to ask, but so?

You aren't having a conversation, you are listening to a conversation between characters you should care about. It gives the squad mates character, not Shepard. Shepard is just listening in, so the conversations are heard from his point of view.

Breaks the illiusion and immersion. Had ME3 been the first game (or a stand-alone title) no one would really care. But we've spent two games being Shepard, being the center of a conversation, and controlling the 'flow' of the conversation.
In ME3 we are reduced to 'listening in' both in terms of character interaction but also in obtaining missions and solving smaller side-quests. Suddenly, in the final chapter, we're on the side-lines. And it's very easy to tell, that this was a financial decision. Let's save the money and time on that and move on.

That completely takes me (and many other long-time fans) out of the experience. Suddenly, we realize that we are playing a game, that we are just looking in on the fun, not actually being a part of the world.

[Wulfram]

I feel the problem with the "natural flow" of conversation is that what's natural if you're a spectator is different if you're a participant.

When you're watching the game on youtube, the dialogue choices do cause the conversations to seem stuttering and artificial.

But it doesn't feel that way if you're engaged in playing the game and thinking about your responces. In that case what feels unnatural is if the character talks without your prompting, particularly if they say something you wouldn't have picked if given the choice.

[Stalker]

The "natural flow" doesn't matter if I can't participate in my RPG and form my own Shepard: I loose interest.

I found myself almost falling asleep when starting a conversation because I either had to listen to BioWare's Shepard all the time, or I was just awkwardly walking through the environment when the characters talked to the wall.

It was not me who was having a conversation with the characters anymore. I had the impression I was just choosing between 2 exactly pre-defined conversations. Almost like they asked me: "There are 2 versions of this cutscene: Would you like whiny Paragon or jackass Renegade?"

Seriously, if they value the "flow" so high they should stop making games they try to sell as RPGs and start making animated movies.<_<

Modifié par Mr Massakka, 29 juillet 2012 - 03:31 .

[sparkyo42]

While I don't have any problem with Weekes I have to say that nothing he said has raised my interest in any future DLC in anyway. In my view it's pretty clear that Bioware will never produce something that would demonstrate any weaknesses in the main game. Any future DLC will have the same level as ME3. Maybe any future game might take on board the complaints ( but I honestly doubt it)

As for the value of Auto-Dialogue, when I start ME3 I had to check 3 or 4 times to see which play settings I had since it felt so off putting. To me it removed me to a passive observer of the game and ruined any immersion in it.

If I want cinematic flowing entertainment I'll go watch a movie they have better writers, if I play an RPG I want to be involved in it rather then watching the program pick what I'm going to say.

Looks like my CE is doomed to remain an expensive Beer mat.

[zeypher]

This, the ever doomed quest for more cinematic experience is what ruins game. A person buys a game to play the game, not watch it. If i just want to watch something there are plenty and better options. Besides this quest for cinematic approach not only ruins the game but in the end costs a butt load of money.
I buy a game i expect to play my game. I buy a rpg, i expect to control my character

[MassEffect762]

Time and money, time and money. EA.

They need some damn good writers if they hope to impress imo.

Modifié par MassEffect762, 29 juillet 2012 - 03:42 .