624 réponses à ce sujet

[SNAKEATEN]

TheDarkestofPoets wrote...

It makes me laugh that everyone sucks the Witcher 2's dick, and yet they never critique the auto-dialogue in that game. I played through it, and loved it, but it had even more auto-dialogue than Mass Effect 3 did. In fact, I feel like it served the exact purpose Weekes described, which was to ensure a natural cinematic flow to the conversations. For all the **** we give Mass Effect 3. the dialogue was generally quite strong, and I think the auto-dialogue succeeded to this extent, despite how much people want to ****. The game has far more pressing problems than auto-dialogue so I'm sort of at a loss for why it was ever a big deal.

[SpamBot2000]

Not into RPGs then?

[Josh123914]

Sorry, no Patrick, if I want a game with GOW-esque gameplay, cinematic cutscenes and autodialogue up the arse, I have Uncharted, when you promoted the series by saying ''Your choices matter'' and then put in autodialogue and REMOVE the middle option completely, then I think your marketing team MIGHT have been a tad dishonest there.

It's not even that you tried it, and it didn't work, but the fact that you tried autodialogue, and tried to make Shepard a single character IN HIS THIRD GAME, I mean simply looking at his interactions with other characters shows it:

Garrus: In ME1 you could choose to set him on the path of good or bad, in ME2 you were less hostile but could still be a dick to him (or at least argue), in ME3 you two are BFFs with no way to say otherwise except to just ignore him.

Tali: You can try and force her off the ship in ME1, In ME2 you can betray her(Freedom's Progress AND on the Alerai)and then try and avoid defending her in her loyalty mission, but I saw none of that in ME3, the closest thing to an argument I had was her was on the Normandy, and even then it was because I locked myself into a Liara romance.


Let this be a lesson Bioware, you can try new things, but not for the sake of budget and especially not in the Final installment.
I'm not a long-term fan, my first Bioware game was ME2 and if these issues continue for the series I'm not spending my money on it.

[Ozida]

Once again, I respect Patrick for talking to us disregarding of my opinions on autodialogues. At least he isn’t hiding behind the "silence shield". <_<

Modifié par Ozida, 29 juillet 2012 - 04:32 .

[SpamBot2000]

Ozida wrote...

Once again, I respect Patrick for talking to us disregarding of my opinions on autodialogues. At least he isn’t hiding behind the "silence shield". <_<

He's a guy who at least appears to give these things some consideration, that's why people respect him.

[xsdob]

But how much longer will they respect him? With the reaction to his thoughts on this matter, only time will tell.

Modifié par xsdob, 29 juillet 2012 - 04:53 .

[BatmanPWNS]

I don't give a damn about the flow, Bioware, I want to role play not listen to Bioware Shepard talk. If I wanted to play a third person shooter with autodialogue for me, I would go play GOW.

[sparkyo42]

xsdob wrote...

But how much longer will they respect him? With the reaction to his thoughts on this matter, only time will tell.

To be fair I've seen many disagreeing with his view on Auto-Dialogue, that doesn't mean that they don't respect him. Different views doesn't mean lack of repsect ( as long as he doesn't end an argument with "Art so there" I think he'll be fine.

Doesn't change the fact that I completely disagree with his view on the Auto-Dialogue question, or that I have any faith in Bioware in improving/reducing it going forward.

[Josh123914]

sparkyo42 wrote...

xsdob wrote...

But how much longer will they respect him? With the reaction to his thoughts on this matter, only time will tell.

To be fair I've seen many disagreeing with his view on Auto-Dialogue, that doesn't mean that they don't respect him. Different views doesn't mean lack of repsect ( as long as he doesn't end an argument with "Art so there" I think he'll be fine.

Doesn't change the fact that I completely disagree with his view on the Auto-Dialogue question, or that I have any faith in Bioware in improving/reducing it going forward.

But isn't that the problem? For Patrick to write this he probably had to run this by management, and for them to approve this is basically them realising they have lost in the PR end and is using a respected employee to push the company's interests, which is also why oh, say, Jessica Merizan or Mac Walters isn't going to tweet anytime soon that there was too much auto-dialogue and less choice in an RPG was a mistake, making Shepard a character in himself defeated the purpose of it being an RPG (you people do realise what the R and P represent right? It's why the likes of Kingdom Hearts and Final Fantasy are called JRPGs (the J represents Japan but you can't roleplay in either aside from fightstyle)).

And to anyone expecting it, the only time they might consider saying how terrible some of the narritive choices were will be when they are trying to shift more pre-orders for Dragon Age 3 after what's left of the Fanbase abandons them when it's multiplayer mode gets leaked on the internet.

[sparkyo42]

Josh123914 wrote...

sparkyo42 wrote...

xsdob wrote...

But how much longer will they respect him? With the reaction to his thoughts on this matter, only time will tell.

To be fair I've seen many disagreeing with his view on Auto-Dialogue, that doesn't mean that they don't respect him. Different views doesn't mean lack of repsect ( as long as he doesn't end an argument with "Art so there" I think he'll be fine.

Doesn't change the fact that I completely disagree with his view on the Auto-Dialogue question, or that I have any faith in Bioware in improving/reducing it going forward.

But isn't that the problem? For Patrick to write this he probably had to run this by management, and for them to approve this is basically them realising they have lost in the PR end and is using a respected employee to push the company's interests, which is also why oh, say, Jessica Merizan or Mac Walters isn't going to tweet anytime soon that there was too much auto-dialogue and less choice in an RPG was a mistake, making Shepard a character in himself defeated the purpose of it being an RPG (you people do realise what the R and P represent right? It's why the likes of Kingdom Hearts and Final Fantasy are called JRPGs (the J represents Japan but you can't roleplay in either aside from fightstyle)).

And to anyone expecting it, the only time they might consider saying how terrible some of the narritive choices were will be when they are trying to shift more pre-orders for Dragon Age 3 after what's left of the Fanbase abandons them when it's multiplayer mode gets leaked on the internet.

I agree with you about how things are being managed, to be fair since Jessica is only Community Relations, I still wouldn't put her in the same league as Walters or Hudson.

All I meant was that while many are disagreeing with him it's respectful, surely nobody can complain about fans complaining respectfully.

As I said before even with this tweet I don't see them changing much in any DLC as that would be an admission that the complaints of the fans had merit, and they don't seem to want to ever do that.

Given the situation DA3 is going to be facing massive headwinds, the preorder numbers aren't going to be pretty.

Modifié par sparkyo42, 29 juillet 2012 - 05:51 .

[Raizo]

Wulfram wrote...

I feel the problem with the "natural flow" of conversation is that what's natural if you're a spectator is different if you're a participant.

When you're watching the game on youtube, the dialogue choices do cause the conversations to seem stuttering and artificial.

But it doesn't feel that way if you're engaged in playing the game and thinking about your responces. In that case what feels unnatural is if the character talks without your prompting, particularly if they say something you wouldn't have picked if given the choice.

I hope Bioware listens to your post. It pretty much sums up my issues with 90% of the dialogue in ME3. You've pretty much summed up what I said in my privious post but you have phrased it much, much better.

[Chewin]

TheDarkestofPoets wrote...

It makes me laugh that everyone sucks the Witcher 2's dick, and yet they never critique the auto-dialogue in that game. I played through it, and loved it, but it had even more auto-dialogue than Mass Effect 3 did. In fact, I feel like it served the exact purpose Weekes described, which was to ensure a natural cinematic flow to the conversations. For all the **** we give Mass Effect 3. the dialogue was generally quite strong, and I think the auto-dialogue succeeded to this extent, despite how much people want to ****. The game has far more pressing problems than auto-dialogue so I'm sort of at a loss for why it was ever a big deal.

B/c people don't like when such major differences are made in the last installment. It takes out the 'freedom' from your PC, and that causes an inevitable ruckus.

Modifié par Chewin3, 29 juillet 2012 - 05:54 .

[Ingvarr Stormbird]

Sigh. Yet more hubris...
"We made couple of successful games, so we know better now". Well, just keep doing it and then follow the fate of companies who went this road before.
"The Cycle continues" ©

Modifié par Ingvarr Stormbird, 29 juillet 2012 - 06:50 .

[Marauder Shields N7]

 Auto dialogue sucks, it doesn't "flow" well at all

[Josh123914]

sparkyo42 wrote...

Josh123914 wrote...

sparkyo42 wrote...

xsdob wrote...

But how much longer will they respect him? With the reaction to his thoughts on this matter, only time will tell.

To be fair I've seen many disagreeing with his view on Auto-Dialogue, that doesn't mean that they don't respect him. Different views doesn't mean lack of repsect ( as long as he doesn't end an argument with "Art so there" I think he'll be fine.

Doesn't change the fact that I completely disagree with his view on the Auto-Dialogue question, or that I have any faith in Bioware in improving/reducing it going forward.

But isn't that the problem? For Patrick to write this he probably had to run this by management, and for them to approve this is basically them realising they have lost in the PR end and is using a respected employee to push the company's interests, which is also why oh, say, Jessica Merizan or Mac Walters isn't going to tweet anytime soon that there was too much auto-dialogue and less choice in an RPG was a mistake, making Shepard a character in himself defeated the purpose of it being an RPG (you people do realise what the R and P represent right? It's why the likes of Kingdom Hearts and Final Fantasy are called JRPGs (the J represents Japan but you can't roleplay in either aside from fightstyle)).

And to anyone expecting it, the only time they might consider saying how terrible some of the narritive choices were will be when they are trying to shift more pre-orders for Dragon Age 3 after what's left of the Fanbase abandons them when it's multiplayer mode gets leaked on the internet.

I agree with you about how things are being managed, to be fair since Jessica is only Community Relations, I still wouldn't put her in the same league as Walters or Hudson.

All I meant was that while many are disagreeing with him it's respectful, surely nobody can complain about fans complaining respectfully.

As I said before even with this tweet I don't see them changing much in any DLC as that would be an admission that the complaints of the fans had merit, and they don't seem to want to ever do that.

Given the situation DA3 is going to be facing massive headwinds, the preorder numbers aren't going to be pretty.

Oh I respect the guy, don't get me wrong, but I disagree with his opinion because what Bioware's doing is like a cheese manufacturer decides that it wants to make chocolate, but why should people buy chocolate with chunks of cheese in it when there's dozens of other chocolate companies out there that have been doing it for longer and better, not to say the cheesemaker's chocolate is bad, it's just not able to compete with the others.

[PoisonMushroom]

Eurgh this is horrible. The dialogue wheel solved the flow problem that most rpg conversation systems have. Mass Effect 1 + 2 didn't have a conversation flow problem, at all.

I'm playing a game, I want interaction. If you want all story to be delivered via cutscenes and autodialogue, then you might as well go and make a movie.

I don't even mind if my conversation choices sometimes lead to the same response from the npc. Firstly, I might not even realise and secondly, it's not just about the response, it's as much about defining my own version of Shepard.

Modifié par PoisonMushroom, 29 juillet 2012 - 07:28 .

[wright1978]

sparkyo42 wrote...

While I don't have any problem with Weekes I have to say that nothing he said has raised my interest in any future DLC in anyway. In my view it's pretty clear that Bioware will never produce something that would demonstrate any weaknesses in the main game. Any future DLC will have the same level as ME3. Maybe any future game might take on board the complaints ( but I honestly doubt it)

As for the value of Auto-Dialogue, when I start ME3 I had to check 3 or 4 times to see which play settings I had since it felt so off putting. To me it removed me to a passive observer of the game and ruined any immersion in it.

If I want cinematic flowing entertainment I'll go watch a movie they have better writers, if I play an RPG I want to be involved in it rather then watching the program pick what I'm going to say.

Looks like my CE is doomed to remain an expensive Beer mat.

Yep i spent ages trying to figure out why the game kept telling me i had full decisions mode on but the dialogue wheel remained largely absent. Player characterisation of the protaganist is why i have a stack of Bioware games under my cimputer but I get the impression that Bioware is baby stepping out of the RPG market.

[sparkyo42]

wright1978 wrote...

sparkyo42 wrote...

While I don't have any problem with Weekes I have to say that nothing he said has raised my interest in any future DLC in anyway. In my view it's pretty clear that Bioware will never produce something that would demonstrate any weaknesses in the main game. Any future DLC will have the same level as ME3. Maybe any future game might take on board the complaints ( but I honestly doubt it)

As for the value of Auto-Dialogue, when I start ME3 I had to check 3 or 4 times to see which play settings I had since it felt so off putting. To me it removed me to a passive observer of the game and ruined any immersion in it.

If I want cinematic flowing entertainment I'll go watch a movie they have better writers, if I play an RPG I want to be involved in it rather then watching the program pick what I'm going to say.

Looks like my CE is doomed to remain an expensive Beer mat.

Yep i spent ages trying to figure out why the game kept telling me i had full decisions mode on but the dialogue wheel remained largely absent. Player characterisation of the protaganist is why i have a stack of Bioware games under my cimputer but I get the impression that Bioware is baby stepping out of the RPG market.

Good to know that it wasn't just me that kept looking for how to get the conversations to work until I realsied that they were working as intended.

Like you I've got a good catalogue of Bioware games and it does seem that baring a change that catalogue won't be growing anymore. Sad but that's where I find myself.

[zyntifox]

Im totally fine with them using auto-dialogue. Heck, make a shooter with cinematics if that's what you want. My problem is that they are marketing a game where you do not control what your character says a role-playing game. I've got the same beef with the paraphrase system; i hate having to keep reloading the game over and over again because i inferred wrong from the paraphrase what my character is going to say.

[LinksOcarina]

WindfishDude wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Jassu1979 wrote...

See, my first contact with auto-dialogue in the Mass Effect universe was through Kasumi and Zaeed in ME2 - and both of these were such frustrating and ultimately boring experiences that I ignored them completely.

Those weren't conversations or character interactions - they were the equivalent of pressing a button on a talking toy, which then gives you one out of ten randomly shuffled catchphrases.

That is what the crew conversations in ME3 felt like, pretty much ALL the time.
Now, granted, there *were* some great scenes: drunk Tali, drunk Ashley, Garrus and Liara trading war stories in the officer's mess.
But all in all, it wasn't really like having a conversation. It was pressing a button on the aforementioned talking toy.

I just have to ask, but so?

You aren't having a conversation, you are listening to a conversation between characters you should care about. It gives the squad mates character, not Shepard. Shepard is just listening in, so the conversations are heard from his point of view.

Breaks the illiusion and immersion. Had ME3 been the first game (or a stand-alone title) no one would really care. But we've spent two games being Shepard, being the center of a conversation, and controlling the 'flow' of the conversation.
In ME3 we are reduced to 'listening in' both in terms of character interaction but also in obtaining missions and solving smaller side-quests. Suddenly, in the final chapter, we're on the side-lines. And it's very easy to tell, that this was a financial decision. Let's save the money and time on that and move on.

That completely takes me (and many other long-time fans) out of the experience. Suddenly, we realize that we are playing a game, that we are just looking in on the fun, not actually being a part of the world.

Funny, it does the opposite for me, it makes me believe in the world more and take in the experience, instead of assuming the characters talk to each other off-screen. It doesn't break the immersion at all either, because you can walk away and ignore the conversations between the squadmates if you really wanted to, which is ten times better than waiting for the squad-mates to say something instead of "I will talk later" or "in the middle of calibrations." 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 01 août 2012 - 04:40 .

[Tritium315]

"Choice that is just player tone and which doesn't change the plot or NPC response beyond one line"

So meaningless choices are the ones that allow you to play a role in a role playing game? Got it.

[Gabylan001]

Some "autodialouge" is good but not well implemented, It's like someone else is playing for you.

[AlanC9]

PoisonMushroom wrote...

Eurgh this is horrible. The dialogue wheel solved the flow problem that most rpg conversation systems have. Mass Effect 1 + 2 didn't have a conversation flow problem, at all.

i thought a lot of ME1 convos were pretty clunky, myself.

[Brovikk Rasputin]

I had no problem with the auto-dialogue. Rather that, than three choices that results in the same thing.

[BDelacroix]

Sounds like future projects are more cost driven than quality driven.