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[comrade gando]

Auto dialogue never really bothered me in ME3. That is until the catalyst shows up then its as if I completely lost control of my shepard. Agreeing with the illusive man and stuff Im like wtf?!

[3DandBeyond]

xsdob wrote...

But how much longer will they respect him? With the reaction to his thoughts on this matter, only time will tell.

The difference is he is speaking to fans about an issue and giving his thoughts on it.  People can then discuss that and dislike the choice but not him for having an opinion.  And people understand that a part of that is not even necessarily his decision, but is more what they've been told will streamline the games.  He has given reasons for thinking it's ok and people can respect that-not everyone will, but far more will respect that than the others who only show up to talk to fans that will tell BW they'd buy turd sandwiches if they made them.

Personally, I see it as all a part of what they started to do with removing anything that was not fighting and fast talking and fighting.  Some of it I don't mind but some of it I do-since some of it gets you into the rpg aspect of the game.  I didn't like the decoding/hacking thing in ME1, but it wasn't too bad in ME2, just overused.  I do think they are trying to morph these type of games into auto-decisions, which is the reason they included that as well as an option and they can track how many people use it.  And all story mode does is weakens the combat, it doesn't add more choices.

[What a Succulent Ass]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Why? Was everyone in ME1 and 2 a retard who spend 10 seconds in silence staring at the screen before they finally picked a response each time?

How you gonna put me on blast like that, dogg.

[AresKeith]

3DandBeyond wrote...

xsdob wrote...

But how much longer will they respect him? With the reaction to his thoughts on this matter, only time will tell.

The difference is he is speaking to fans about an issue and giving his thoughts on it.  People can then discuss that and dislike the choice but not him for having an opinion.  And people understand that a part of that is not even necessarily his decision, but is more what they've been told will streamline the games.  He has given reasons for thinking it's ok and people can respect that-not everyone will, but far more will respect that than the others who only show up to talk to fans that will tell BW they'd buy turd sandwiches if they made them.

Personally, I see it as all a part of what they started to do with removing anything that was not fighting and fast talking and fighting.  Some of it I don't mind but some of it I do-since some of it gets you into the rpg aspect of the game.  I didn't like the decoding/hacking thing in ME1, but it wasn't too bad in ME2, just overused.  I do think they are trying to morph these type of games into auto-decisions, which is the reason they included that as well as an option and they can track how many people use it.  And all story mode does is weakens the combat, it doesn't add more choices.

the Action mode and Roleplaying mode are basically the same, but with even more auto-dialogue

[3DandBeyond]

AresKeith wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

xsdob wrote...

But how much longer will they respect him? With the reaction to his thoughts on this matter, only time will tell.

The difference is he is speaking to fans about an issue and giving his thoughts on it.  People can then discuss that and dislike the choice but not him for having an opinion.  And people understand that a part of that is not even necessarily his decision, but is more what they've been told will streamline the games.  He has given reasons for thinking it's ok and people can respect that-not everyone will, but far more will respect that than the others who only show up to talk to fans that will tell BW they'd buy turd sandwiches if they made them.

Personally, I see it as all a part of what they started to do with removing anything that was not fighting and fast talking and fighting.  Some of it I don't mind but some of it I do-since some of it gets you into the rpg aspect of the game.  I didn't like the decoding/hacking thing in ME1, but it wasn't too bad in ME2, just overused.  I do think they are trying to morph these type of games into auto-decisions, which is the reason they included that as well as an option and they can track how many people use it.  And all story mode does is weakens the combat, it doesn't add more choices.

the Action mode and Roleplaying mode are basically the same, but with even more auto-dialogue

I've only every tried RPG and story mode, but I did try paragon characters (almost full paragon part way through the game and a new War Hero Spacer paragon bump character) on "No Decisions" mode and I kept getting all the renegade dialogue.  I got renegade interrupts that I never got before-they were paragon before.  So, if some people think there's no ingame canon, I'm not buying it. 

I tried by almost full paragon (tiny almost invisible renegade bit) and had a romance with Liara and the night before Cronos (idea?), my Shepard was pretty hostile to Liara and finally told her she wanted to be alone on "no decisions".  That makes no sense.  I tried it a few times and each time I got the same decisions.

[wright1978]

Are they going to rename 'full decisions' to 'decisions when we don't think it effects the flow of cinematics'?

[CronoDragoon]

Tritium315 wrote...

"Choice that is just player tone and which doesn't change the plot or NPC response beyond one line"

So meaningless choices are the ones that allow you to play a role in a role playing game? Got it.

Meaningless choices are dialogue choices that affect nothing in the game world whatsoever. That is what was cut out. I define my role by the choices I make, not by an extra chance or two a mission to say something ****-y or idealistic.

[AresKeith]

3DandBeyond wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

xsdob wrote...

But how much longer will they respect him? With the reaction to his thoughts on this matter, only time will tell.

The difference is he is speaking to fans about an issue and giving his thoughts on it.  People can then discuss that and dislike the choice but not him for having an opinion.  And people understand that a part of that is not even necessarily his decision, but is more what they've been told will streamline the games.  He has given reasons for thinking it's ok and people can respect that-not everyone will, but far more will respect that than the others who only show up to talk to fans that will tell BW they'd buy turd sandwiches if they made them.

Personally, I see it as all a part of what they started to do with removing anything that was not fighting and fast talking and fighting.  Some of it I don't mind but some of it I do-since some of it gets you into the rpg aspect of the game.  I didn't like the decoding/hacking thing in ME1, but it wasn't too bad in ME2, just overused.  I do think they are trying to morph these type of games into auto-decisions, which is the reason they included that as well as an option and they can track how many people use it.  And all story mode does is weakens the combat, it doesn't add more choices.

the Action mode and Roleplaying mode are basically the same, but with even more auto-dialogue

I've only every tried RPG and story mode, but I did try paragon characters (almost full paragon part way through the game and a new War Hero Spacer paragon bump character) on "No Decisions" mode and I kept getting all the renegade dialogue.  I got renegade interrupts that I never got before-they were paragon before.  So, if some people think there's no ingame canon, I'm not buying it. 

I tried by almost full paragon (tiny almost invisible renegade bit) and had a romance with Liara and the night before Cronos (idea?), my Shepard was pretty hostile to Liara and finally told her she wanted to be alone on "no decisions".  That makes no sense.  I tried it a few times and each time I got the same decisions.

thats basically Action mode from a friend that told me that, those whole different mode things were just super lazy

most of my Shepards were Paragade and I never lost anybody either, except my Sentinal Shepard whose IronMan lol

[RiouHotaru]

Len Lfc wrote...

What's Auto-Dialogue, & why is it good/bad?

Auto-dialog is this term that's been coined because Shepard now speaks without player input.  Often the lines aren't character breaking, usually following the Renegade/Paragon tone you picked earlier, otherwise they're decidedly netural.

People are upset because they have this bizarre idea of having absolute control over every little thing your character says.

[AresKeith]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Len Lfc wrote...

What's Auto-Dialogue, & why is it good/bad?

Auto-dialog is this term that's been coined because Shepard now speaks without player input.  Often the lines aren't character breaking, usually following the Renegade/Paragon tone you picked earlier, otherwise they're decidedly netural.

People are upset because they have this bizarre idea of having absolute control over every little thing your character says.

what, people want control over there character in an RPG, thats insane

[RiouHotaru]

I like how people forget that ME1 had entire conversations where Shepard's reaction was identical regardless of what option you picked.

ME2 there were times where picking Paragon or Renegade got you absolutely nothing for it. No points, no impact, nothing.

ME3 has neither of these issues but everyone's mad because you can't control every single reaction Shepard has? Really? At least the dialog options were meaningful.

[Tritium315]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Tritium315 wrote...

"Choice that is just player tone and which doesn't change the plot or NPC response beyond one line"

So meaningless choices are the ones that allow you to play a role in a role playing game? Got it.

Meaningless choices are dialogue choices that affect nothing in the game world whatsoever. That is what was cut out. I define my role by the choices I make, not by an extra chance or two a mission to say something ****-y or idealistic.

I'm sorry, but that's just stupid. Take the ending of ME1: there are two choices you can make; save council or don't. However, not saving the council can be worded as "I don't give a **** about the council" or "focus on sovereign, nothing else matters." Functionally those two choices are exactly the same but within the context of the story being told they make a world of difference. On the one hand Shep comes off as a dick and on the other she comes off as a person who's willing to make the hard choices when everything is on the line.

Subtle interactions with characters are how one defines themselves within an RPG; it's how one builds immersion. While the gameplay might not change based on these choices the story being told certainly does, and RPGs are about story first, not gameplay.

*Spoilers for PS:T*

Planescape: Torment is a perfect example. There are functionally three endings: kill your mortality, merge with it, or end yourself. However, there are a multitude of different ways to achieve each ending and all the different paths to each ending, while functionally the same, drastically changes the feel of the event, and how the story plays out.

[RiouHotaru]

AresKeith wrote...
what, people want control over there character in an RPG, thats insane

It is when it's not developmentally realistic.  Giving the player ABSOLUTE control over EVERY reaction and dialog line is absolutely ridiculous, in terms of programming and cost as well.  Better that some dialog be automated and choices be distinct than have it where you have 6 choices but only 2 or 3 reactions, a la DA:O

[3DandBeyond]

AresKeith wrote...

thats basically Action mode from a friend that told me that, those whole different mode things were just super lazy

most of my Shepards were Paragade and I never lost anybody either, except my Sentinal Shepard whose IronMan lol

It would be but I chose narrative mode and no decisions.  So the action would be minimal and I would make no decisions.  Every decision is renegade no matter what type of character I had. 

[Fawx9]

RiouHotaru wrote...

I like how people forget that ME1 had entire conversations where Shepard's reaction was identical regardless of what option you picked.

ME2 there were times where picking Paragon or Renegade got you absolutely nothing for it. No points, no impact, nothing.

ME3 has neither of these issues but everyone's mad because you can't control every single reaction Shepard has? Really? At least the dialog options were meaningful.

I think the problem is that the auto dialgue that involves Shepard's emotions and thoughts are what causes issues.

One of my Shepards didn't even talk to that alliance guy in ME1 and he died on Virmire. In ME2 I talked with both Thane and Mordin a lot. Yet for some reason it's always that nameless sentinel that gets brought up when I miss someone. 

It's stuff like that which annoys people me thinks.

Modifié par Fawx9, 01 août 2012 - 07:00 .

[RiouHotaru]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Often isn't always, making it still a problem.

Well unfortunately, you're just going to have to deal with a few character-breaking lines.  Bioware cannot be expected to account for even HALF of all possible Shepard personality types since some people's Shepards are only different by a single line or two.  Obviously they're going to go with what the devs think fits the scene.

[3DandBeyond]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Tritium315 wrote...

"Choice that is just player tone and which doesn't change the plot or NPC response beyond one line"

So meaningless choices are the ones that allow you to play a role in a role playing game? Got it.

Meaningless choices are dialogue choices that affect nothing in the game world whatsoever. That is what was cut out. I define my role by the choices I make, not by an extra chance or two a mission to say something ****-y or idealistic.

Ok then that would mean Jack telling Shepard s/he can't dance should be stricken from the game because only choices and dialogue with good or bad impact matter.

The dialogue wheel used to offer a choice you could make to get more explanation as well as a more paragon option and a more renegade option and then even neutral choices.  They've removed a lot of that and taken away a lot of the meaning from making the choice.

They should have had full decisions mode mean just that.

[wright1978]

RiouHotaru wrote...

AresKeith wrote...
what, people want control over there character in an RPG, thats insane

It is when it's not developmentally realistic.  Giving the player ABSOLUTE control over EVERY reaction and dialog line is absolutely ridiculous, in terms of programming and cost as well.  Better that some dialog be automated and choices be distinct than have it where you have 6 choices but only 2 or 3 reactions, a la DA:O

So  ridicolous that it existed in the previous 2 games. Instead they gutted the dialogue wheel and removed it completely from large sections  of the game, replacing it with character defining auto-dialogue that is in no way influenced by the player and conflicts completely with dialogue choices made in the previous 2 games. It is hardly surprising RPG are extremely annoyed that ME3 did this.

Modifié par wright1978, 01 août 2012 - 07:03 .

[AresKeith]

RiouHotaru wrote...

AresKeith wrote...
what, people want control over there character in an RPG, thats insane

It is when it's not developmentally realistic.  Giving the player ABSOLUTE control over EVERY reaction and dialog line is absolutely ridiculous, in terms of programming and cost as well.  Better that some dialog be automated and choices be distinct than have it where you have 6 choices but only 2 or 3 reactions, a la DA:O

I thought was an RPG game, where your suppose to have control over every dialogue convo, thats one the main points to it

[felipejiraya]

Now we hate Patrick Weekes too?

[wright1978]

felipejiraya wrote...

Now we hate Patrick Weekes too?

Nope people hate auto-dialogue not weekes.

[3DandBeyond]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Often isn't always, making it still a problem.

Well unfortunately, you're just going to have to deal with a few character-breaking lines.  Bioware cannot be expected to account for even HALF of all possible Shepard personality types since some people's Shepards are only different by a single line or two.  Obviously they're going to go with what the devs think fits the scene.

There is no canon except when there is.  We all understand there's a finite amount of choices and answers within the game, but what was done before gave you the feeling you were having a conversation.  So much of the dialogue just doesn't fit what's being done or even said, that you think you are saying when you make a choice.

You might think Shepard will say, "I'm worried about Ashley" and it says, "Just get your act together and get ready for the Council."  A lot of the dialogue would have one paragon choice and one renegade and they both seemed pretty nasty in places.

But in truth none of it matters that much for the ending so they could have made it all meaningless filler dialogue.  You could avoid playing great portions of the game and not do much talking at all as long as you can get to Earth and the conduit with enough EMS.  So even thinking the dialogue matters much at all is untrue.

[CronoDragoon]

Tritium315 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Tritium315 wrote...

"Choice that is just player tone and which doesn't change the plot or NPC response beyond one line"

So meaningless choices are the ones that allow you to play a role in a role playing game? Got it.

Meaningless choices are dialogue choices that affect nothing in the game world whatsoever. That is what was cut out. I define my role by the choices I make, not by an extra chance or two a mission to say something ****-y or idealistic.

I'm sorry, but that's just stupid. Take the ending of ME1: there are two choices you can make; save council or don't. However, not saving the council can be worded as "I don't give a **** about the council" or "focus on sovereign, nothing else matters." Functionally those two choices are exactly the same but within the context of the story being told they make a world of difference. On the one hand Shep comes off as a dick and on the other she comes off as a person who's willing to make the hard choices when everything is on the line.

Subtle interactions with characters are how one defines themselves within an RPG; it's how one builds immersion. While the gameplay might not change based on these choices the story being told certainly does, and RPGs are about story first, not gameplay.

*Spoilers for PS:T*

Planescape: Torment is a perfect example. There are functionally three endings: kill your mortality, merge with it, or end yourself. However, there are a multitude of different ways to achieve each ending and all the different paths to each ending, while functionally the same, drastically changes the feel of the event, and how the story plays out.

You are asking for a level of control that is quite frankly non-existent in the majority of Mass Effect. You can't compare the options available in a text-based game to those in a fully voiced game. They are different. Text-based games are obviously going to have more freedom of dialogue.

The chance at different interpretations for the same decision is lacking in the first two games, as well. Why can't I tell Kaiden that I am sacrificing him because I like Ashley better? Why can't I tell Samara that I am choosing Morinth for a reason other than her utility?

Besides, you do get to put in a word about certain decisions after the fact in ME3. When discussing Mordin's sacrifice, for example, you can reflect on your friendship with him, or speak about him as a soldier fulfilling his mission.

[BatmanPWNS]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Len Lfc wrote...

What's Auto-Dialogue, & why is it good/bad?

Auto-dialog is this term that's been coined because Shepard now speaks without player input.  Often the lines aren't character breaking, usually following the Renegade/Paragon tone you picked earlier, otherwise they're decidedly netural.

People are upset because they have this bizarre idea of having absolute control over every little thing your character says.

Or because I don't give a damn about Thessia or I don't give a damn about Liara or I don't give a damn about wierd ass random kid dying even though I have lost people more closer and in worser ways. Why call it an RPG when we're not even making our own characters choices?