624 réponses à ce sujet

[CronoDragoon]

[quote]3DandBeyond wrote...


Ok then that would mean Jack telling Shepard s/he can't dance should be stricken from the game because only choices and dialogue with good or bad impact matter.[/quote]

This has no relation to what I said. An appropriate comparison would be like an option telling Jack to either screw off or admitting you can't dance being stricken from the game because it has no impact. I am not talking about cutting content but cutting worthless dialogue wheels in order to provide more dialogue lines somewhere else in the game.

[quote]The dialogue wheel used to offer a choice you could make to get more explanation as well as a more paragon option and a more renegade option and then even neutral choices.  They've removed a lot of that and taken away a lot of the meaning from making the choice.

They should have had full decisions mode mean just that.[/quote]

[/quote]

Investigate options are still present in ME3. Additionally, as Weekes said, there were actually very few wheels in ME2 that had 3 options, and in ME1 many of the "different" options had no meaningful difference.

You have yet to show that anything they cut in ME3 dialogue wheels diminish the choices you are presented.

[CronoDragoon]

BatmanPWNS wrote...

Or because I don't give a damn about Thessia or I don't give a damn about Liara or I don't give a damn about wierd ass random kid dying even though I have lost people more closer and in worser ways. Why call it an RPG when we're not even making our own characters choices?

That's funny, because my Shepard didn't give a damn about Kaiden, but he still acted like I did in Virmire.

IMMERSION BROKEN.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 01 août 2012 - 07:25 .

[Ieldra]

RiouHotaru wrote...
I like how people forget that ME1 had entire conversations where Shepard's reaction was identical regardless of what option you picked.

ME2 there were times where picking Paragon or Renegade got you absolutely nothing for it. No points, no impact, nothing.

ME3 has neither of these issues but everyone's mad because you can't control every single reaction Shepard has? Really? At least the dialog options were meaningful.

I have no issue with autodialogue as such. The problem are those instances where Shepard says something incredibly stupid, or other things that would break my roleplaying, and I can't opt out of it. There are a handful or more such instances in the game, mostsly in conversations with Hackett and TIM, and the most stupid ones in the prologue. I wonder who wrote that...

[wright1978]

Sarcasm mode engaged...

Can Bioware please remove all the other combat modes apart from casual? I'm worried about the flow of the combat so it is completely reasonable to butcher this aspect of gameplay.

[SpamBot2000]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I have no issue with autodialogue as such. The problem are those instances where Shepard says something incredibly stupid, or other things that would break my roleplaying, and I can't opt out of it. There are a handful or more such instances in the game, mostsly in conversations with Hackett and TIM, and the most stupid ones in the prologue. I wonder who wrote that...

So... autodialogue's ok as long as says what you want?

[Barquiel]

The auto dialogue never bothered me (on an emotional level, Shepard was a brick in ME2...ME3 was much better). Shepard doesn't make moral decisions without our input.

Shepard responding to the same thing two/three different ways was much more annoying than auto-dialogue.

Modifié par Barquiel, 01 août 2012 - 07:31 .

[Welsh Inferno]

Lovely. So BioWare, are you actually trying to push my money into the hands of other developers? Every time I hear any news regarding BW it seems to be going further & further away from my opinion...

I can tolerate many of the flaws to this game but auto-dialogue I cannot. No.

[BatmanPWNS]

CronoDragoon wrote...

BatmanPWNS wrote...

Or because I don't give a damn about Thessia or I don't give a damn about Liara or I don't give a damn about wierd ass random kid dying even though I have lost people more closer and in worser ways. Why call it an RPG when we're not even making our own characters choices?

That's funny, because my Shepard didn't give a damn about Kaiden, but he still acted like I did in Virmire.

IMMERSION BROKEN.

Shaking handshake is immersion breaking now? All you had to do was a talk to him, not even once did it force you to say "Hey, buddy! You're my friend!". In ME3, there is no alternate to these forced friendships.

[CronoDragoon]

BatmanPWNS wrote...

Shaking handshake is immersion breaking now? All you had to do was a talk to him, not even once did it force you to say "Hey, buddy! You're my friend!". In ME3, there is no alternate to these forced friendships.

I was being sarcastic, since it in my opinion that nothing in Mass Effect 1, 2, or 3 breaks my immersion dialogue-wise.

And there is no alternative to feeling bad about Kaiden dying on Virmire. What if I felt all, "Good. He deserved to die." Sounds as much as a railroad as Thessia reaction to me.

[Binary_Helix 1]

This inane babble about "narrative flow" and skipping gameplay altogether illustrates to me people are embarrassed that they work in the video game industry. Just look at the push to make games an art form. All a desperate move to win approval.

Modifié par Binary_Helix 1, 01 août 2012 - 07:40 .

[jeffyg93]

OMGGGGGG DA MASS EFFECT SERIEZ IS RUINED!!!!!

[What a Succulent Ass]

Games can be an art form, and they should be pushed in that direction.

[Binary_Helix 1]

Jeffy dazzles us again with his trollish insights.

[Ieldra]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

I have no issue with autodialogue as such. The problem are those instances where Shepard says something incredibly stupid, or other things that would break my roleplaying, and I can't opt out of it. There are a handful or more such instances in the game, mostsly in conversations with Hackett and TIM, and the most stupid ones in the prologue. I wonder who wrote that...

So... autodialogue's ok as long as says what you want?

Yes. Isn't it the same for you? Most mission dialogue on the Kodiak, for instance, is neutral. Why would anyone have a problem with that?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 01 août 2012 - 07:45 .

[Eain]

Not sure about that, Binary Helix. I think they may be genuine in their drive to make art, I just don't think they know what art is or how it's made (hint: the creator can't say it is, and only posterity proves whether or not it has any chance of becoming it).

Personally if this is the route that Bioware wants to take them they're of course entitled to do so, but I would like them to at least be honest in that case and

1) Stop selling the ME series as an RPG but rather as a TPS with combat modification. At this point Mass Effect and Darksiders are about on the same level as far as RPG mechanics are concerned, and we all call Darksiders a hack-and-slash.

2) Stop drinking your own Kool-Aid. Just accept that you make narrative driven third person shooters with a generic plot formula, and don't try to cover it up with any pretentious language. There's no shame in making third person shooters, and there's no shame in admitting that you need to hire a new lead writer.

3) Accept that you will lose fans because of this shift. I am personally not going to buy anything ME related anymore. If ME3 is only the beginning of a larger trend then I'll pass. The thematic, stylistic and gameplay shifts are too massive compared to what ME1 started out as. The whole reason I committed to this trilogy was because of ME1. I went into this series fully aware of the fact that I was in for a trilogy. Changing the whole setup for the third installment and focusing on luring in new players is just not how trilogies are made. Show some artistic integrity and cater to the people who've been onboard since the start, or be willing to lose customers.

Modifié par Eain, 01 août 2012 - 07:47 .

[wright1978]

Welsh Inferno wrote...

Lovely. So BioWare, are you actually trying to push my money into the hands of other developers? Every time I hear any news regarding BW it seems to be going further & further away from my opinion...

I can tolerate many of the flaws to this game but auto-dialogue I cannot. No.

Yep me too. Won't tolerate the sort of levels of auto-dialogue that were in ME3. Cuts right into the heart of why i bought their RPG's. Sounds like their moving in the opposite direction by stripping away player characterisation elements. Wonder what will be next on the cutting block.

[3DandBeyond]

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

This inane babble about "narrative flow" and skipping gameplay altogether illustrates to me people are embarrassed that they work in the video game industry. Just look at the push to make games an art form. All a desperate move to win approval.

This is it exactly.  They were too embarrassed to have an end fight that was too game-like and now they think they are da Vinci when it's more like some kid was finger painting on their story flow chart.

They didn't want to write one happier ending because that would be too cheesy and needed artistic death so they could be like Kubrick or something when it is more like a 2 year old's dream.

[CronoDragoon]

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

This inane babble about "narrative flow" and skipping gameplay altogether illustrates to me people are embarrassed that they work in the video game industry. Just look at the push to make games an art form. All a desperate move to win approval.

Please explain how wanting to improve narrative flow is inane.

Edit: The end boss fight quote is indeed ridiculous.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 01 août 2012 - 07:57 .

[What a Succulent Ass]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Yes. Isn't it the same for you? Most mission dialogue on the Kodiak, for instance, is neutral. Why would anyone have a problem with that?

I agree with Ieldra. When the auto-dialogue is just Shepard making observations or giving orders, it's fine. In fact, it's a very good way to showcase her or his leadership abilities and intelligence, since, at this point, those are entirely informed attributes. Philosophical arguments (or arguments of any kind), personality, emotionality, and psychological development, however, should be off-limits. Especially since Auto!Dialogue Shepard's default setting appears to be "moron."

[Tritium315]

CronoDragoon wrote...

You are asking for a level of control that is quite frankly non-existent in the majority of Mass Effect. You can't compare the options available in a text-based game to those in a fully voiced game. They are different. Text-based games are obviously going to have more freedom of dialogue.

The chance at different interpretations for the same decision is lacking in the first two games, as well. Why can't I tell Kaiden that I am sacrificing him because I like Ashley better? Why can't I tell Samara that I am choosing Morinth for a reason other than her utility?

Besides, you do get to put in a word about certain decisions after the fact in ME3. When discussing Mordin's sacrifice, for example, you can reflect on your friendship with him, or speak about him as a soldier fulfilling his mission.

So because it's hard to do they shouldn't do it? Everything in video games, or any medium for that matter, was non-existent until someone did it. Each installment in a series should build on the previous one, especially in the story/dialogue department since you can devote a much greater percentage of the budget to those things (engine/mechanics/etc. are all coded by that point). ME3 should have been the capstone of the franchise; it should have taken everything the previous games were about and turned it up to 11, not dialed it down. Now, instead of being remembered as one of the greatest games of all time, it's just another rpg shooter with a crappy ending.

Hell, they could have used the VA/story budget from TOR on ME3 instead; would have been a better investment (gogo free2play).

[CronoDragoon]

Tritium315 wrote...

So because it's hard to do they shouldn't do it? Everything in video games, or any medium for that matter, was non-existent until someone did it. Each installment in a series should build on the previous one, especially in the story/dialogue department since you can devote a much greater percentage of the budget to those things (engine/mechanics/etc. are all coded by that point). ME3 should have been the capstone of the franchise; it should have taken everything the previous games were about and turned it up to 11, not dialed it down. Now, instead of being remembered as one of the greatest games of all time, it's just another rpg shooter with a crappy ending.

Hell, they could have used the VA/story budget from TOR on ME3 instead; would have been a better investment (gogo free2play).

The very problem is that ME3 is the third game of the franchise. They had to spend time and money instituting the numerous variations represented by the first two games. They had to program dialogue for Ashley and Kaiden, they had to have dialogue for Wrex and Wreav, for Mordin and Wiks. It is simply unrealistic to expect Mass Effect 3 to incorporate all the possible combinations produced by the first 2 games AND give it the level of dialogue control represented by Planescape or even Dragon Age Origins.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 01 août 2012 - 08:16 .

[Eain]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Binary_Helix 1 wrote...

This inane babble about "narrative flow" and skipping gameplay altogether illustrates to me people are embarrassed that they work in the video game industry. Just look at the push to make games an art form. All a desperate move to win approval.

Please explain how wanting to improve narrative flow is inane.

Edit: The end boss fight quote is indeed ridiculous.

Because narrative flow is by definition impossible in a game that lets you pick your own dialogue. That's the whole thing. You sacrifice flow and logic for the sake of choice. You can't have your cake and eat it. If you want conversations to flow then remove choice and do it all on autodialogue, but then also start the series off on that basis. Don't change halfway through for some non-functional hybrid.

Every time a dialogue tuning fork pops up in ME3 I feel like the developers are taking the ******. I mean, really? Shepard's saying 80% of her lines independently anyway, are you really gonna interrupt your precious conversation flow to give me lame non-influential choice? Just keep talking tbh. I mean if you're gonna kill the game's RPG mechanics you might aswell kill em good. Don't insult my intelligence by giving me two flavours of the same line and railroading the conversation in the same direction anyway.

Modifié par Eain, 01 août 2012 - 08:26 .

[BatmanPWNS]

CronoDragoon wrote...

BatmanPWNS wrote...

Shaking handshake is immersion breaking now? All you had to do was a talk to him, not even once did it force you to say "Hey, buddy! You're my friend!". In ME3, there is no alternate to these forced friendships.

I was being sarcastic, since it in my opinion that nothing in Mass Effect 1, 2, or 3 breaks my immersion dialogue-wise.

And there is no alternative to feeling bad about Kaiden dying on Virmire. What if I felt all, "Good. He deserved to die." Sounds as much as a railroad as Thessia reaction to me.

Oh, didn't know it was sarcasm.

[SpamBot2000]

Ieldra2 wrote...

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

I have no issue with autodialogue as such. The problem are those instances where Shepard says something incredibly stupid, or other things that would break my roleplaying, and I can't opt out of it. There are a handful or more such instances in the game, mostsly in conversations with Hackett and TIM, and the most stupid ones in the prologue. I wonder who wrote that...

So... autodialogue's ok as long as says what you want?

Yes. Isn't it the same for you? Most mission dialogue on the Kodiak, for instance, is neutral. Why would anyone have a problem with that?

I like RPGs.

[Tritium315]

CronoDragoon wrote...


The very problem is that ME3 is the third game of the franchise. They had to spend time and money instituting the numerous variations represented by the first two games. They had to program dialogue for Ashley and Kaiden, they had to have dialogue for Wrex and Wreav, for Mordin and Wiks. It is simply unrealistic to expect Mass Effect 3 to incorporate all the possible combinations produced by the first 2 games AND give it the level of dialogue control represented by Planescape or even Dragon Age Origins.

Are you seriously using that argument? Bioware went out of their way to make your choices barely matter. Ashley and Kaiden are practically carbon copies of eachother. Killing the Rachni queen doesn't matter since they found a spare. Nearly every mission plays out the same with dead characters either just missing or replaced with another character that does the exact same ****. Hell, blowing up the collector base, the final decision of ME2, has ZERO effect and is barely even mentioned, if at all.

If Bioware actually did what you're saying they did I could understand, but they did the exact opposite.

Modifié par Tritium315, 01 août 2012 - 08:50 .