624 réponses à ce sujet

[RiouHotaru]

wright1978 wrote...

Nope people did choose neutral dialogue. Just because you point hunted doesn't mean others didn't roleplay.
Who cares about dialogue flow? Remove the manual combat then and force everyone to watch staged fighting cutscenes then or more realistically go watch a movie if you have no interest in interacting in a supposedly choice based game.

People aren't talking about full control over Shep. They are talking about maintaining the level of control with auto-dialogue being minimal and limited to non characterising elements that was present in previous games. ME3 had bucket loads of awful charactersing auto-dialogue that conflicts with previous choices. Is it really unrealistic to expect the player characterisation features not to be butchered?

Actually, I roleplayed each of my Shepards, and only in...2 or 3 occasions did I ever pick netural dialog, and in none of those cases did it produce a meaningful result (Horizon in ME2, to be specific).

You do have control over Shepard.  Simply because Shepard characterizes themselves between your choices BASED on your decision doesn't mean you've lost control.  If you pick a dialog option where Shepard is sad about not being able to save people, is it awful characterization if Shepard's auto-dialog continues that choice into other statements regarding guilt over a precieved lack of ability to help others?

[RiouHotaru]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Meaningful player agency is preserved in ME3. Every single decision was up to me. People need to cut out the hyperbole.

Seriously.  It's like somehow the dialog between decisions negates the decisions somehow, which is simply a flat-out lie.

[CronoDragoon]

RiouHotaru wrote...
Agency isn't taken away.  Shepard characterizing him/herself on their own between dialog lines is, in my opinion, far better than the utter LACK of characterization or interaction at all that occured in ME1.  ME2 got better at it, especially with LotSB, where Liara's question prompted almost a full MINUTE of auto, characterizing dialog.

The best dialogue in ME2 was auto-dialogue during Lair of the Shadow Broker. The back and forth between Shepard and Liara is something not possible with pauses for dialogue wheels every other line.

[wright1978]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Eain wrote...


The dialogue in Gears also flows at a regular pace and Epic didn't pretend to be making an RPG with meaningful player agency. 

Meaningful player agency is preserved in ME3. Every single decision was up to me. People need to cut out the hyperbole.

Nope meaningful player agency wasn't preserved. The Auto-dialogue iceberg tore a huge hole in it.

[spirosz]

RiouHotaru wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

Nope people did choose neutral dialogue. Just because you point hunted doesn't mean others didn't roleplay.
Who cares about dialogue flow? Remove the manual combat then and force everyone to watch staged fighting cutscenes then or more realistically go watch a movie if you have no interest in interacting in a supposedly choice based game.

People aren't talking about full control over Shep. They are talking about maintaining the level of control with auto-dialogue being minimal and limited to non characterising elements that was present in previous games. ME3 had bucket loads of awful charactersing auto-dialogue that conflicts with previous choices. Is it really unrealistic to expect the player characterisation features not to be butchered?

Actually, I roleplayed each of my Shepards, and only in...2 or 3 occasions did I ever pick netural dialog, and in none of those cases did it produce a meaningful result (Horizon in ME2, to be specific).

You do have control over Shepard.  Simply because Shepard characterizes themselves between your choices BASED on your decision doesn't mean you've lost control.  If you pick a dialog option where Shepard is sad about not being able to save people, is it awful characterization if Shepard's auto-dialog continues that choice into other statements regarding guilt over a precieved lack of ability to help others?

You keep arguing with "I", "I", I do a lot of things differently than you as well, as I've read from your posts about the neutral dialogue. Just because it didn't have that impact that you wanted or expected, doesn't mean it didn't impact someone in a different or more meaningful way for them. You're just going to end up talking in circles, but keep going. 

[GreyLycanTrope]

Eain wrote...

A textbook example of the Bioware MO. Something doesn't work? Take it out.

Can't make exploration work? Take it out.
Can't make the Mako work? Take it out.
Can't make neutral options work? Take it out.
Can't make chosen dialogue flow? Take it out.

Just take out all the things. And then discover your third game is a barebone knockoff of the first two that only deserves the same name because it has Shepard in it. Seriously, this game is a joke. Rather than improve on things that exist Bioware just culls everything.

I'm actually suprised they improved combat instead of taking it out, the cover system didn't work quite right in the first game either.

[RiouHotaru]

spirosz wrote...

You keep arguing with "I", "I", I do a lot of things differently than you as well, as I've read from your posts about the neutral dialogue. Just because it didn't have that impact that you wanted or expected, doesn't mean it didn't impact someone in a different or more meaningful way for them. You're just going to end up talking in circles, but keep going. 

But that's just it.  You didn't like something that I liked, and I disliked something that you liked.  Bioware cannot appease both of us.  So they have to pick what THEY think will work for THEM.

[CronoDragoon]

Since I don't have any philosophy texts next to my computer, I'll resort to wiki, and if you'd like to create your own definition that is fine.

"Human agency is the capacity for human beings to make choices."

Agency in this game is preserved since I had the capacity to make every meaningful choice.

[AresKeith]

this is why Action mode, Story Mode, and Roleplaying mode should have been more in-depth

[wright1978]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Eain wrote...

A textbook example of the Bioware MO. Something doesn't work? Take it out.

Can't make exploration work? Take it out.
Can't make the Mako work? Take it out.
Can't make neutral options work? Take it out.
Can't make chosen dialogue flow? Take it out.

Just take out all the things. And then discover your third game is a barebone knockoff of the first two that only deserves the same name because it has Shepard in it. Seriously, this game is a joke. Rather than improve on things that exist Bioware just culls everything.

I'm actually suprised they improved combat instead of taking it out, the cover system didn't work quite right in the first game either.

I remember some people complaining how the gun used in cutscenes didn't match their choice. Why didn't they remove all gun choice?

[RiouHotaru]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Indeed; the conversations about the genophage with Mordin were a great example.

There were quite a few times in ME3 where I thought "a neutral option would be really good here".

And that's all fine and great in ME1 and 2, but since 3 has the Reapers literally breaking down the front door and doing the galactic equiv of a home invasion, you don't have the luxury to be neutral and go "I can't take a side."

[AresKeith]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Eain wrote...

A textbook example of the Bioware MO. Something doesn't work? Take it out.

Can't make exploration work? Take it out.
Can't make the Mako work? Take it out.
Can't make neutral options work? Take it out.
Can't make chosen dialogue flow? Take it out.

Just take out all the things. And then discover your third game is a barebone knockoff of the first two that only deserves the same name because it has Shepard in it. Seriously, this game is a joke. Rather than improve on things that exist Bioware just culls everything.

I'm actually suprised they improved combat instead of taking it out, the cover system didn't work quite right in the first game either.

and because that was there main focus the journal and most of the side-missions sucked

[wright1978]

AresKeith wrote...

this is why Action mode, Story Mode, and Roleplaying mode should have been more in-depth

This is why roleplaying(full decisions mode) should have been the same as in previous games as they promised it would be rather than the butchered version it in fact was.

[CronoDragoon]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Indeed; the conversations about the genophage with Mordin were a great example.

There were quite a few times in ME3 where I thought "a neutral option would be really good here".

And that's all fine and great in ME1 and 2, but since 3 has the Reapers literally breaking down the front door and doing the galactic equiv of a home invasion, you don't have the luxury to be neutral and go "I can't take a side."

I don't necessarily agree with this. I am fine with them cutting out dialogue wheels that don't matter, but a middle option in the wheels that do would have been nice.

[Eain]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Agency isn't taken away.  Shepard characterizing him/herself on their own between dialog lines is, in my opinion, far better than the utter LACK of characterization or interaction at all that occured in ME1.  ME2 got better at it, especially with LotSB, where Liara's question prompted almost a full MINUTE of auto, characterizing dialog.

Letting the other part of your post be, where you essentially just repeated the problems that those things had and then agreed that they were indeed taken out. That's a repetition of our task (thank you Kirrahe). The point I was trying to argue is that if they would've used those things being bad as an excuse to make them better, it would've resulted in a better game. Instead Bioware only ever cuts things.

But to get back to what you're saying here, that may indeed be your opinion. And it's not mine. Autodialogue is, after the Catalyst, after Kai Leng, after the Crucible... ok, after many things, the worst thing to have happened to this game. I don't care about Bio-Shep. It's not my character.

Matter of fact, I have direly few reasons to consider this game as canon at all:

1) Shepard says the things that Bioware feels she should say.
2) Shepard looks different.
3) Shepard now lives in a universe with Power Ranger Ninja Villains.
4) The Crucible comes completely out of nowhere and has no presence in either ME1 or ME2
5) Almost every choice I made in previous installments has been ignored in favour of Bioware's interpretation.

This game has been completely tacked on! It doesn't flow from the previous two installments in any way, but hey I guess I should be glad because now the dialogue flows. Or something.

Where is the third part of my story? All I did was play the third part of Bioware's story. I don't care about that. They can have their autodialogue because it's their Shepard. I want my choice. I want to pick what my Shepard says and I want to be able to roleplay and sacrifice game efficiency for it when it suits me.

[wright1978]

Eain wrote...

Where is the third part of my story? All I did was play the third part of Bioware's story. I don't care about that. They can have their autodialogue because it's their Shepard. I want my choice. I want to pick what my Shepard says and I want to be able to roleplay and sacrifice game efficiency for it when it suits me.

Yes i'm sorry Bioware i'm too slow in killing mooks, i sometimes go for snacks and then come back and make dialogue choices. I don't select action mode etc. All in all I badly disrupt the flow of the game by my presence.

[RiouHotaru]

Eain wrote...

Letting the other part of your post be, where you essentially just repeated the problems that those things had and then agreed that they were indeed taken out. That's a repetition of our task (thank you Kirrahe). The point I was trying to argue is that if they would've used those things being bad as an excuse to make them better, it would've resulted in a better game. Instead Bioware only ever cuts things.

Did it ever occur to you, or anyone, that maybe they DID look at these issues, try to come up with a fix, realize it wasn't going to work, and then instead of wasting time/resources/money/etc, took it out?  You make it sound like the FIRST reaction was simply to cut something.

Where is the third part of my story? All I did was play the third part of Bioware's story. I don't care about that. They can have their autodialogue because it's their Shepard. I want my choice. I want to pick what my Shepard says and I want to be able to roleplay and sacrifice game efficiency for it when it suits me.

Auto-dialog and self-characterization are far better than the shallow, non-existant emotional depth and lack of even illusionary choice in ME1.  Dialog options resulting in the same spoken line and zero self-characterization period was terrible.

[Eain]

Are they better? I must've replayed ME1 about 10 to 12 times.

ME3 I replayed twice and stopped at Thessia and Rannoch respectively.

You tell me how well that worked out.

[CronoDragoon]

Eain wrote...

Where is the third part of my story? All I did was play the third part of Bioware's story. I don't care about that. They can have their autodialogue because it's their Shepard. I want my choice. I want to pick what my Shepard says and I want to be able to roleplay and sacrifice game efficiency for it when it suits me.

I am sorry you didn't like the game, but I personally did get the third part of my story, so calling it merely BioWare's story is incorrect. The only issue I had with the game's story was the ending, which I still don't consider worthy of the series, but I found the writing and yes auto-dialogue in the scenes to be far better than the short, disjointed conversations that comprised many ME1 and 2 scenes.

[CronoDragoon]

Eain wrote...

Are they better? I must've replayed ME1 about 10 to 12 times.

ME3 I replayed twice and stopped at Thessia and Rannoch respectively.

You tell me how well that worked out.

I played ME1 once and don't feel the need to touch it again. ME2 I've done 4 times and ME3 three so far.

[Eain]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Eain wrote...

Where is the third part of my story? All I did was play the third part of Bioware's story. I don't care about that. They can have their autodialogue because it's their Shepard. I want my choice. I want to pick what my Shepard says and I want to be able to roleplay and sacrifice game efficiency for it when it suits me.

I am sorry you didn't like the game, but I personally did get the third part of my story, so calling it merely BioWare's story is incorrect. The only issue I had with the game's story was the ending, which I still don't consider worthy of the series, but I found the writing and yes auto-dialogue in the scenes to be far better than the short, disjointed conversations that comprised many ME1 and 2 scenes.

Well I'm glad it worked for you but it didn't work for me. I felt completely unconnected to Shepard and, quite frankly, thought she was a bit of a ******. ME3's just a lot of wasted potential to me, and I do indeed have a hard time taking this game seriously as a canon installment.

[Tritium315]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Eain wrote...

Where is the third part of my story? All I did was play the third part of Bioware's story. I don't care about that. They can have their autodialogue because it's their Shepard. I want my choice. I want to pick what my Shepard says and I want to be able to roleplay and sacrifice game efficiency for it when it suits me.

I am sorry you didn't like the game, but I personally did get the third part of my story, so calling it merely BioWare's story is incorrect. The only issue I had with the game's story was the ending, which I still don't consider worthy of the series, but I found the writing and yes auto-dialogue in the scenes to be far better than the short, disjointed conversations that comprised many ME1 and 2 scenes.

So as long as the dialogue coincides with your views it's okay and **** everyone else?

[Conniving_Eagle]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Auto-Dialogue = More natural dialogue flow?

Why? Was everyone in ME1 and 2 a retard who spend 10 seconds in silence staring at the screen before they finally picked a response each time?