624 réponses à ce sujet

[CronoDragoon]

Tritium315 wrote...

So as long as the dialogue coincides with your views it's okay and **** everyone else?

Just like all of you are saying "it's not okay if it doesn't coincide with my views and **** people who like it."

It always comes down to whether or not you had an issue with it.

But I'm pretty sure my post says "I'm sorry you don't feel this way" instead of "**** you." More hyperbole it seems.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 01 août 2012 - 10:18 .

[Eain]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Auto-Dialogue = More natural dialogue flow?

Why? Was everyone in ME1 and 2 a retard who spend 10 seconds in silence staring at the screen before they finally picked a response each time?

This. And the following:

Why should the person playing ME care whether or not Patrick Weekes thinks that the dialogue should flow better? Do you know how often I concerned myself with dialogue flow in ME1 and ME2, and how much the lack thereof bothered me? Never and not. Didn't give it a moment's thought. Then Bioware had to come by and steal my conversation options because they thought I wanted flow.

I want choice, that's what I want.

Modifié par Eain, 01 août 2012 - 10:19 .

[AresKeith]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Auto-Dialogue = More natural dialogue flow?

Why? Was everyone in ME1 and 2 a retard who spend 10 seconds in silence staring at the screen before they finally picked a response each time?

[CronoDragoon]

Eain wrote...

This. And the following:

Why should the person playing ME care whether or not Patrick Weekes thinks that the dialogue should flow better? Do you know how often I concerned myself with dialogue flow in ME1 and ME2, and how much the lack thereof bothered me? Never and not. Didn't give it a moment's thought. Then Bioware had to come by and steal my conversation options because they thought I wanted flow.

I want choice, that's what I want.

Why should the person playing ME or why should you? Weekes is just stating what he thinks makes the ME cutscenes better: dialogue wheels only when they matter. The generic "person playing ME" should care insofar as they agree with him or not.

[AresKeith]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Tritium315 wrote...

So as long as the dialogue coincides with your views it's okay and **** everyone else?

Just like all of you are saying "it's not okay if it doesn't coincide with my views and **** people who like it."

It always comes down to whether or not you had an issue with it.

But I'm pretty sure my post says "I'm sorry you don't feel this way" instead of "**** you." More hyperbole it seems.

thats why there was an converstion option in the options menu, they could have easily let people choose which dialogue they would prefer, instead of limited dialogue or none at all

[CronoDragoon]

AresKeith wrote...

thats why there was an converstion option in the options menu, they could have easily let people choose which dialogue they would prefer, instead of limited dialogue or none at all

I agree to a certain extent, but you must also realize that any lines devoted to branching dialogue wheels for inconsequential conversations would force them to cut other lines elsewhere in the game. They don't have unlimited time or resources to devote to a million lines of dialogue. There is already many many more dialogue lines in this game than ME2.

[C9316]

Ah, sycophancy if I've ever seen it.

[wright1978]

Why didn't they stick to their guns in the EC if their flowing BS is so brilliant? Instead they added a dialogue wheel so we could quiz and give opinions on choices. It really broke the flow!

[AresKeith]

CronoDragoon wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

thats why there was an converstion option in the options menu, they could have easily let people choose which dialogue they would prefer, instead of limited dialogue or none at all

I agree to a certain extent, but you must also realize that any lines devoted to branching dialogue wheels for inconsequential conversations would force them to cut other lines elsewhere in the game. They don't have unlimited time or resources to devote to a million lines of dialogue. There is already many many more dialogue lines in this game than ME2.

thats why ME3 needed more, there were things that were cut out because of time and resource, it only had 2.5 years of development, RPG games require atleast 3 to 4 years

[fainmaca]

CronoDragoon wrote...
I am sorry you didn't like the game, but I personally did get the third part of my story, so calling it merely BioWare's story is incorrect. The only issue I had with the game's story was the ending, which I still don't consider worthy of the series, but I found the writing and yes auto-dialogue in the scenes to be far better than the short, disjointed conversations that comprised many ME1 and 2 scenes.

I'm sorry, but all this does is prove the point that ME3 failed completely at remaining true to the original intent of the franchise. This started out as a choice based game, promising the ability to forge your own story. The fact that you got your story while so many others didn't get theirs just shows how short of the mark it came. yes, you should have been able to get what you found fulfilling about this, but its shouldn't have come at the expense of my variation on the story, or someone else's. Granted, there is only so much Bioware can put in, but why waste their financial and disc-space budgets on gimmicks and cheap sales tactics like the Kinect functionality, Multiplayer and 'Celebrity' appearances (quotes because I'd never heard of people like Chobot and FPJ before, so I find the tactic of wasting money on them even more dubious) at the expense of what most of us wanted from the game.

Bioware knew what we loved about the previous two games: Control. Control over the direction the conversations went in, further enhanced by being able to use interrupts to take them in even more radically different directions. ME was never about its great combat controls or brilliant vehicle sections. It was about its revolutionary conversation and choice system.

Somewhere along the line, they forgot that.

[CronoDragoon]

AresKeith wrote...
thats why ME3 needed more, there were things that were cut out because of time and resource, it only had 2.5 years of development, RPG games require atleast 3 to 4 years

Mass Effect 2 didn't.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 01 août 2012 - 10:31 .

[Kel Riever]

 "There's always a cost"
Yeah, no more purchases!  That's the cost 

[AresKeith]

CronoDragoon wrote...

AresKeith wrote...
thats why ME3 needed more, there were things that were cut out because of time and resource, it only had 2.5 years of development, RPG games require atleast 3 to 4 years

Mass Effect 2 didn't.

thats the point I'm trying to make, ME3 had the same dev time as ME2, the balance between RPG and action was broken because of that, both ME2 and ME3 turned into 3rd person shooters, but ME2 had a better journal and better random side-missions than ME3 fetch quests

Modifié par AresKeith, 01 août 2012 - 10:41 .

[Conniving_Eagle]

At this point I'm surprised Bioware didn't take dialogue out all together, lol.

It's funny that there's a Roleplaying Mode and an Action Mode, yet the Roleplaying mode has dumbed down dialogue, already feels like Action Mode to me

Modifié par Conniving_Eagle, 01 août 2012 - 10:38 .

[AresKeith]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

At this point I'm surprised Bioware didn't take dialogue out all together, lol.

It's funny that there's a Roleplaying Mode and an Action Mode, yet the Roleplaying mode has dumbed down dialogue, already feels like Action Mode to me

it should have just been like this

Action mode
Story mode
Movie mode lol

[Tritium315]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Tritium315 wrote...

So as long as the dialogue coincides with your views it's okay and **** everyone else?

Just like all of you are saying "it's not okay if it doesn't coincide with my views and **** people who like it."

It always comes down to whether or not you had an issue with it.

But I'm pretty sure my post says "I'm sorry you don't feel this way" instead of "**** you." More hyperbole it seems.

Except if the game was the way we're suggesting it should be then the dialogue you liked would still be in there. So what we're saying is pretty much nothing like what you're saying.

[CronoDragoon]

Tritium315 wrote...

Except if the game was the way we're suggesting it should be then the dialogue you liked would still be in there. So what we're saying is pretty much nothing like what you're saying.

No, it wouldn't, because what I liked was not only the writing but the fact that scenes were allowed to proceed relatively uninterrupted unless there was a decision to be made or questions to be asked. I shudder at the thought of the scene of the landing on Rannoch with Tali according to what some people want.

> Pick up rock.

  Give Tali rock.
/
\\
 Chuck rock at Tali's head.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 01 août 2012 - 10:44 .

[C9316]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Tritium315 wrote...

Except if the game was the way we're suggesting it should be then the dialogue you liked would still be in there. So what we're saying is pretty much nothing like what you're saying.

No, it wouldn't, because what I liked was not only the writing but the fact that scenes were allowed to proceed relatively uninterrupted unless there was a decision to be made or questions to be asked. I shudder at the thought of the scene of the landing on Rannoch with Tali according to what some people want.

> Pick up rock.

  Give Tali rock.
/

 Chuck rock at Tali's head.

Instead what we get is forced buddy/buddy scene regardless. What if someone had roleplayed their sheps as not liking Tali? Too bad?

[CronoDragoon]

C9316 wrote...

Instead what we get is forced buddy/buddy scene regardless. What if someone had roleplayed their sheps as not liking Tali? Too bad?

Are you arguing against the quality of the entire Mass Effect series, then? Because being forced to act a certain way towards a squadmate is by no means an ME3 specific phenomenon.

[Conniving_Eagle]

Auto-dialogue derails roleplaying. I don't see how anyone other than a Bioware enthusiast or someone who played Mass Effect 3 first can enjoy and support it.

[C9316]

CronoDragoon wrote...

C9316 wrote...

Instead what we get is forced buddy/buddy scene regardless. What if someone had roleplayed their sheps as not liking Tali? Too bad?

Are you arguing against the quality of the entire Mass Effect series, then? Because being forced to act a certain way towards a squadmate is by no means an ME3 specific phenomenon.

From what I recall in ME3's PR campaign the devs stated they noticed this and were trying to have less forced friendships *notably in the case of Garrus and Tali* we see how well that turned out huh?

Modifié par C9316, 01 août 2012 - 10:55 .

[TookYoCookies]

Auto Dialogue? Bad Bioware, Bad bad very bad.



[quote]
twitter.com/PatrickWeekes/status/229238946016657408
"The subject of auto-dialog in #ME3 has come up in the forums a lot lately ... (CONT)"
"… as I recall you had some insightful responses to the criticism via Twiter. Do you see it continuing in #ME3 SP DLC?"

"I believe it'll continue. Lets scenes have more natural dialog flow. But also learning from places it felt too long w/o choice"[/quote]

Yeah, not good. Remember that Shepard in 1 and 2 was not Bioware Cannon. Players had choice in determining most/if not all of Shepards responses/questions/answers. That kind of player involvement had a very dynamic effect on Shepard's personality, and rewarded the player with a great sense of ownsership/agency over most of what you could control.

In ME3, i'll admit the dialogue flows. but in no way is it natural. Often times i found Shepard saying things so far out of character i had to double check i wasnt in that stupid "action mode" on accident. I could careless how fast the dialogue takes place, if it takes too long thats what the space bar is there for any way. But when i find my Shep saying things that i dont want him to, and i have no way to change what he says, even when it contradicts actions/conversations from previous installments; thats just bullsh*t.

Guess What; players can press space bar, they are also given dialogue options to exit conversations early.. But players who want more involvement/Control in/over what their Shepard says are actually given nothing to compensate. Instead we have to sit and watch our Shepard transform into what Bioware( YOU) want him to be with no ability to protest. This was not the case in the first 2 games, and its a mistake having made it this way in the 3rd.


[quote]
twitter.com/PatrickWeekes/status/229370691076644864
"Sorry to hear people dislike auto-dialog. I like flow of ME3 scenes -- in ME1, hard to write Shepard decisively w/every line a choice. 1/3"[/quote]

In ME1 Shepard wasnt supposed to be written decisively, Shepard was more a blank sheet and the player was given control over how to paint him. From looks, origin, Specialty, and the dialogue wheel w/ player involvement Shaped his personality. The Player chose when shepard acted decisively and on what topics/subjects. In ME3 You guys took that away. 

[quote]
twitter.com/PatrickWeekes/status/229370764506308609
"That said, per my response, we want it to feel natural, lines a logical extension of what you chose. Every project a growing process. 2/3"[/quote]

Again for it to feel natural, the player would have to be given choice. My Shepard was not the one you guys wrote in ME3 and rarely did my decisions have a satisfactory effect on the dialouge that took place. Yes every project is a growing process, and this project is a good example of it growing in the wrong direction. Auto-dialogue is a degeneration in this game.

[quote]
twitter.com/PatrickWeekes/status/229370817887227904
"Goal is players rarely/never have meaningless choice, rarely/never wish they had a choice and had words put in their mouths instead. 3/3"

twitter.com/PatrickWeekes/status/229371744497070080
"I haven't played enough of my Renegade game. Did autodialogue reflect your Para/Ren scores in terms of attitude?"

"Depends on the scenes, but more often, it reflects the Para/Rene choice you make early in the scene."
[/quote]

yeah im not sure if we even played the same game becuase this was not the case at all. Rarely did  i notice a change in tone/syntax of auto dialogue pending my para/renegade (white text) choice in a conversation. Some lines went absent pending which choice, but nothing that made one decision or the other have any greater/lesser meaning.


[quote]
twitter.com/PatrickWeekes/status/229372736848416768
"What about lack of middle option? What were people whos shepard always chose the grey area supposed to do?"

Replay ME2. Note how many dialog choices have only Para/Middle or Rene/Middle. 3 flavor options actually pretty rare."[/quote]

Yeah this is an excuse, not an explanation.. Definitely not a viable explanation, or a good excuse... After ME2 some players wanted more choices, and the players that didnt want more choices already had avenues to avoid them. In ME3 we were now all forced to have less choice, only White and Black.. thus giving birth to bi-polar cannon Shep; Who has dreams about little boys...

Shepard should have been given more Choice in this Game. It was a trademark of the franchise that got limited in its third and final installement.  Just not a smart idea on paper, and i cant believe you guys actually implemented it in the game. Raise your standards Bioware, dont resort to giving paying customers excuses about why this product wasnt as good as the ones that came before it, and was even lessened instead of being improved. Rather than making sure multiple choices had varying/meaningful differences and impact, you just took choice out of some segments all togeather. THIS WAS A STEP BACKWARDS.



[quote]
twitter.com/PatrickWeekes/status/229372987579703296
'just my two cents, but in life we make many meaningless choices all the time. Why not allow that into the game?"

"Well, they cost more, for starters. We'd be cutting meaningful choices from elsewhere, or losing scenes altogether"

twitter.com/PatrickWeekes/status/229373992459460608
"Interesting on 'meaningless' choice -- how do you define meaningless? Whether I speak kindly or cruelly to NPC X may not..."

"Choice that is just player tone and which doesn't change the plot or NPC response beyond one line"
[/quote]

along with:

[quote]
twitter.com/PatrickWeekes/status/229374078790799360
"Nice to have, absolutely, but not at cost of bigger choices. And with game that big, always a cost"[/quote]
[/quote]


Again, maybe think innovation instead of making a passable product... Make most/all choices matter/differ to an extent. We were given less (apparently meaningless) choices because their so expensive that you would to have cut other choices involved in the game? Hmm, hey heres a thought:

MAYBE DONT WASTE MILLIONS OF DOLLARS MARKETING THE GAME, AND INSTEAD PUT THAT MONEY INTO THE ACTUAL DEVELOPMENT OF THE GAME. MARKETING 101: GOOD F*CKING PRODCUTS SELL THEMSELVES.

I dont blame Weekes for that, more EA. But as Bioware is the game dev. they need to make EA realize that limiting the prodcution of the game for a bigger marketing budget is a bad, stupid, dumb, just plain terrible idea, because if the game is good the community involved/people who purchase it will do more to sell more game copies than any over priced CGI commercial ever would.

My god, imagine if ME3 was actually good? If There was a good exposition, good combat, actually enjoyable turret sequences, ME2 Squadmates/LI heavily involved, The old Normandy (No more stupid f*cking scanning after every mission), No Kai Leng, The Mako (or a viable equivalent, something steering friendly for console players), No more pointless fights against Cerberus and instead more Fights against Reaper forces that matter, Space Hamster gets a wheel, and Oh yea; AN ACTUALLY GOOD ENDING. ONE THAT DOES NOT INCLUDE A HOLOGRAPHIC CHILD. 

Imagine if we got all that... We all would be on these forums, on other sites, playing other online games, talking to friends/family etc. Ranting and Raving about how f*cking good ME3 was, and how amazing this trilogy is, and how videogames need to start being taken seriously as an art medium, etc. We would be going nuts about how f*cking unbelievably great this game was. The future of the Mass effect franchise would be promising, with almost limitless possabilities for merchandising and other spin-off games.

Sadly this is not the case. Instead we got a sh*t game, and the future of this franchise/fiction may be non-existant. Bioware please do not repeat the same mistakes you made with Mass Effect 3,  admit them. Learn from them. And Make Better Games as a result.

[xsdob]

C9316 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

C9316 wrote...

Instead what we get is forced buddy/buddy scene regardless. What if someone had roleplayed their sheps as not liking Tali? Too bad?

Are you arguing against the quality of the entire Mass Effect series, then? Because being forced to act a certain way towards a squadmate is by no means an ME3 specific phenomenon.

From what I recall in ME3's PR campaign the devs stated they noticed this and were trying to have less forced friendships *notably in the case of Garrus and Tali* we see how well that turned out huh?

Link please.

[OMTING52601]

Gotta admit, Crono, I agree. I've replayed game three a couple of times and while I like that there's more 'dialogue' - the cutscenes being a bit longer and more personal - I don't like the way they play out. I don't 'feel' like Shep is actually having a conversation; I feel like I'm watching a cutscene, a mini-movie, which completely ruins any immersion.

More than that, I don't like how the majority of this 'dialogue' comes in a big clump at the beginning and then again at the end, with non-interactive bits in between. From my perspective, the way they laid out the squad interaction scenes made it feel like there was actually much less interaction in game three than there had been in game two, by far, and even less than game one - which I have always felt was light on the companion aspects of RPG's.

Adding the above to the fact that the game plays out exactly the same way every single time - and I'm NOT talking about the end. I mean, in the other games, I could decide how I unfolded the story and in fact, I don't think I have one time played either previous game in the exact same order. But game three? I have no choice. It's Mars, then it's Manea, then onto Sur'Kesh, then Tuchanka(where I can either do the N7 mission or the bomb mission - not much variety there), then save the Citadel, then Rannoch, then Thessia. There's no deviation. Heck, to avoid the disc switching irritation, I'd imagine no one even bothers to either of the three potential sidequests(other than the fetch stuff that can be done) before playing out Sur'Kesh.

Takes replay value to about zero, for me at least, when any illusion of control from my end, be it in progression of the game or in my interactions with NPC's through dialogue - something that was a big draw for me in the other two games - is not just poorly constructed by blatantly removed. Of course, FWIW, YMMV.

[CaFe87]

I played three different Renegade characters. One hated Aliens but was fine with the Alliance. The other one hated the Alliance and all restrictions, but liked Aliens. The third one was a "get the job done" renegade.
Please tell me, I can keep this characters consistent with auto-dialog?