624 réponses à ce sujet

[paul165]

I don't really understand how they went from the system in ME2 which was mostly regarded as good apart from the problem where you "had" to hunt para/rene points to this. They fixed the only problem the ME2 system had then proceeded to remove all the excellent work that they had put in as well.

Regarding the illusion of choice I would argue that the illusion matters after all no cRPG allows you real choice - you can't take up Jack's offer to go pirate, you can't agree w/ Saren etc so the illusion is really important. The dialogue wheel allows you to state your characters motivation for the comment -even if the comment itself is identical.

The concept of removing "unimportant" dialogue choices chills me as the difference in roleplaying terms between "here's your damn stuff, give me the money" and "the task is completed my Lord how may I further serve you?" is significant despite them both resulting in the NPC going fine here's your money. And that is precisely the sort of choice they are looking at removing from games

[AresKeith]

CronoDragoon wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

whats so bad about ME1?

Let's not derail this thread. There was a thread floating around about why people thought ME1 was bad compared to the sequels you could check out.

I'm gonna derail it but ME1 was the only true RPG game of the series

[xxskyshadowxx]

I guess the developers think that there just aren't enough Squaresoft games out there anymore. Pretty soon the characters will be running around with pink hair and gun swords.

[frostajulie]

If this is the way there games are going I will happily join the throngs of people not buying there stuff. I NEED the illusion of choice in order to WANT to buy their product. If they fail to deliver then **** em.

[RiouHotaru]

paul165 wrote...
The concept of removing "unimportant" dialogue choices chills me as the difference in roleplaying terms between "here's your damn stuff, give me the money" and "the task is completed my Lord how may I further serve you?" is significant despite them both resulting in the NPC going fine here's your money. And that is precisely the sort of choice they are looking at removing from games

Uhhh, no.  "Unimportant" has a completely different meaning for them.  Once again, players exaggerate.  Also, as to your example, those two choices ARE what Bioware would leave in.  What'd they'd take out is the "Done here.  What's next?" middle option.

As for people saying it's the P/R system's fault.  Congrats, the inherent issue of using ANYTHING resembling a morality system in a video game.  You have to tie it to point value, which means you want to encourage players to stick to their principles.

[sonicphoto]

This is sad, in ME1, they are so many dialogue choices, and yes I had to pause and think what to say, that's the genuine part of the game, that anything you might say can be very critical. While in Mass Effect 3, I can barely see up close the characters, I can barely talk close to my crew, they just keep on talking and Shepard talks like he is just a character established that you have no control of. I really liked how I could talk with the characters in the first and second game, because you had a private moment with them, you see them up close, see their expression, see their emotions. Mass Effect 3 constantly feels that is in a hurry, and yes they must hurry because the reapers are killing at every second, but one must also reflect what is going on.

[wright1978]

frostajulie wrote...

If this is the way there games are going I will happily join the throngs of people not buying there stuff. I NEED the illusion of choice in order to WANT to buy their product. If they fail to deliver then **** em.

Yep. Imagine ME2 removing all choice in dialogue with TIM and railroading the player into cerberus friendly auto-dialogue. The story would play out but the experience would feel wrong because many would feel their Shep should be able to reflect via dialogue their characterisation of Shep and not be railroaded into a bioware canon version of the character.

[Conniving_Eagle]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

Auto-dialogue derails roleplaying. I don't see how anyone other than a Bioware enthusiast or someone who played Mass Effect 3 first can enjoy and support it.

Auto-dialogue inhibits fully immersive role-playing, to be sure. But if what you want is fully immersive role-playing, then Mass Effect was never for you. It's always a scale, balancing choice and story. I can't stand Elder Scrolls games because they veer way too far towards the former. It sounds like you prefer the balance the first two games had, and I respect that. But surely it is not incomprehensible that people who loved the first two may find they like the more cinematic aspect of Mass Effect 3 as well? After all, I hardly believe the soul of Mass Effect has been compromised. Many people say that Mass Effect is about choice, and yet any meaningful choice is preserved in this game. 

It's not the traditional strawman, because you agreed with me in the previous statement. But where did this part come from? When did I say I wanted Mass Effect to be some uber-roleplaying experience like Elder Scrolls?

[TheRealJayDee]

TookYoCookies wrote...

My god, imagine if ME3 was actually good? If There was a good exposition, good combat, actually enjoyable turret sequences, ME2 Squadmates/LI heavily involved, The old Normandy (No more stupid f*cking scanning after every mission), No Kai Leng, The Mako (or a viable equivalent, something steering friendly for console players), No more pointless fights against Cerberus and instead more Fights against Reaper forces that matter, Space Hamster gets a wheel, and Oh yea; AN ACTUALLY GOOD ENDING. ONE THAT DOES NOT INCLUDE A HOLOGRAPHIC CHILD. 

Imagine if we got all that... We all would be on these forums, on other sites, playing other online games, talking to friends/family etc. Ranting and Raving about how f*cking good ME3 was, and how amazing this trilogy is, and how videogames need to start being taken seriously as an art medium, etc. We would be going nuts about how f*cking unbelievably great this game was. The future of the Mass effect franchise would be promising, with almost limitless possabilities for merchandising and other spin-off games.

Sadly this is not the case. Instead we got a sh*t game, and the future of this franchise/fiction may be non-existant. Bioware please do not repeat the same mistakes you made with Mass Effect 3,  admit them. Learn from them. And Make Better Games as a result.

The bolded should be read by all the people who accuse the ME3 critics of just wanting to hate ME3 and Bioware. That's total BS, we ALL wanted to love the game. I was looking forward to playing it and after that talking about it with my friends who were also fans, and to convince those who weren't already to buy and play the whole trilogy. I didn't preorder the CE with the wish to **** and moan about it, I did that because I had hoped to be blown away by the game.


What did I get in the end? I started playing the game I had preorderd about two and a half weeks after release because by then I decided not to trust in Bioware to fix the broken face import, and rebuild my Shepard from scratch. When I finally played the shockingly weak intro with my new/old Shep I had already heard that many negative remarks about the ending that I went against everything I usually do in those situations and spoiled myself. Had I not done that I might have punched my screen, at the latest when the 'Buy moar DLC' message appeared.

Have I inspired my non ME playing friends to buy the ME trilogy? No. Instead most of my already ME playing friends decided against geting the game anytime soon, based on what they read online and what I told them about it. It's a damn shame, really...

[TookYoCookies]

CronoDragoon wrote...


I still want choices. That's your strawman. I never said the game would be better without choices; I said it's better without dialogue wheels that have no affect on anything whatsoever.

And I would LOVE it if people who wanted more dialogue wheels had a gameplay option to choose. I don't want it my way and no one else's. I believe that the way it is now is better than the alternative, but that doesn't mean I would begrudge people their option. I am simply defending the way the game handles dialogue wheels as they stand, and everyone suddenly gets all offended and thinks I am ****ting on them. I'm not, but if you have a right to voice your opinion that more dialogue wheels = better, than I also should be able to voice a counter-opinion.

Yes, of course. People get offended i imagine becuase bioware, went heavy into the auto dialogue direction, despite their already being avenues to circumvent dialogue choices with limited impact, and if they arent adament that "auto-dialogue = bad" then Bioware may very well go even more in this direction and claim something stupid in their future defense like "We thought this was what you wanted herp derp." . 

and yes i definitely respect your opinion/counter-point and your ability to share it w/o verbal attack etc. (insert politically correct non-hostilities here).. But my main point always in concern over auto-dialogue vs dialoge wheel is the degenerative direction they took with choice. Imagine if ME2 had the same numerous amount of dialogue wheel choices that ME1 had, but each one of them was very distinct. With different context, syntax, tone, allowing conversations to play out multiple different ways. That should have been the goal with evolving dialogue, make the choices matter and be noticable. Give the player greater agency over Shepards personality and have it affect his relationships with the characters he interacts with.

Instead Bioware took criticisim the complete wrong way; "Ok, some of these dialogue wheel choices dont do anything. Lets just remove them then.". That was a mistake. Choice was a major selling point of ME1, and of this franchise as a whole, but Choice and its impact has degenerated greatly over the last 2 entries of this trilogy  to the point now, with ME3 its almost Non-existant. This was a mistake. Choice was the innovation, the reason for this game. it needs to be expanded upon, not taken away from. 

I agree, pointless choice is pointless. That doesnt mean take choice away, it means invest more time to making all those choices matter. What was superficial text in ME1 could have been different dialogue in ME2, and led to different paths of entire conversations in ME3. Even if the plot was linear, and my conversations change little to nothing of the major missions, atleast let me voice those feelings through shep. Let the player decide whether or not he gives a sh*t about a random little boy; "I dont coach football at Penn State, so why am i having nightmares about children?". Let the player just tell ashley/Liara/Allers to just STFU stop teasing and let him hit it, Let the player decide how confident he is about fighting Reapers, and if he really thinks the crucible is a stupid f*cking waste of time, and Let the player decide whether or not fighting the Reapers is or is not about "Strategy and tactics" cause you know, this is a f*cking war and all, and im pretty f*cking concerned about the strategy and tactics involved.

Having emotions forced onto my Shep probably caused the biggest disconnect for me throughout the whole game. These emotions came from auto-dialogue, and limited choices. Things that need to be avoided, and instead have choices and their impact expanded in future installments if there are to be any. atleast imo. 



(edited for format/confusing wording)

Modifié par TookYoCookies, 02 août 2012 - 12:13 .

[OMTING52601]

I don't know, TW2's 'morality' is awfully grey but at no point did I feel like the Geralt I was playing suddenly acted out of character based on the dialogue I choose. And really, there was quite of bit of auto-dialogue in TW2, but it was better parsed out, for sure, oh and what I chose to say and/or how I said it actually did have an effect.

It's like that bit with the Turian General where you can say sorry for your loss or damn the reapers - if BW wanted to get rid of 'unimportant' dialogue uh that bit could go. Had no affect whatsoever on anything. I'd much rather have been able to tell the VS to shut their frelling yap about Shep and Cerberus and GTF over it without having to key up a romance - hello good place for a friendly, middle wheel answer. Because that 'choice' did affect other parts of the game.

[WindfishDude]

paul165 wrote...

I don't really understand how they went from the system in ME2 which was mostly regarded as good apart from the problem where you "had" to hunt para/rene points to this. They fixed the only problem the ME2 system had then proceeded to remove all the excellent work that they had put in as well.

Regarding the illusion of choice I would argue that the illusion matters after all no cRPG allows you real choice - you can't take up Jack's offer to go pirate, you can't agree w/ Saren etc so the illusion is really important. The dialogue wheel allows you to state your characters motivation for the comment -even if the comment itself is identical.

The concept of removing "unimportant" dialogue choices chills me as the difference in roleplaying terms between "here's your damn stuff, give me the money" and "the task is completed my Lord how may I further serve you?" is significant despite them both resulting in the NPC going fine here's your money. And that is precisely the sort of choice they are looking at removing from games

*applause*

I agree 100%

Modifié par WindfishDude, 02 août 2012 - 12:09 .

[CronoDragoon]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

It's not the traditional strawman, because you agreed with me in the previous statement. But where did this part come from? When did I say I wanted Mass Effect to be some uber-roleplaying experience like Elder Scrolls?

You didn't, and I didn't say you did. Specifically referring to you, in the bold text you highlighted, I said you wanted the balance of role-playing and story the first two games had, while using the backdrop of Elder Scrolls as a way to illustrate that balance. The Elder Scrolls statement is also more of a general response to what a few people in this thread, including AresKeith, specifically DID say they wanted, which was "full control." Mass Effect has never offered anything approaching that.

[CronoDragoon]

OMTING52601 wrote...

I don't know, TW2's 'morality' is awfully grey but at no point did I feel like the Geralt I was playing suddenly acted out of character based on the dialogue I choose. And really, there was quite of bit of auto-dialogue in TW2,

That's because Geralt only has one character. You can make choices in that game, but Geralt is who he is personality-wise.

[AresKeith]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

It's not the traditional strawman, because you agreed with me in the previous statement. But where did this part come from? When did I say I wanted Mass Effect to be some uber-roleplaying experience like Elder Scrolls?

You didn't, and I didn't say you did. Specifically referring to you, in the bold text you highlighted, I said you wanted the balance of role-playing and story the first two games had, while using the backdrop of Elder Scrolls as a way to illustrate that balance. The Elder Scrolls statement is also more of a general response to what a few people in this thread, including AresKeith, specifically DID say they wanted, which was "full control." Mass Effect has never offered anything approaching that.

then what I should have said then was the dialogue control we had in ME1 and ME2 is what helped build the ME franchise, people liked having control over what your character says no matter how it was, ME3 forces it on you

[CronoDragoon]

AresKeith wrote...
then what I should have said then was the dialogue control we had in ME1 and ME2 is what helped build the ME franchise, people liked having control over what your character says no matter how it was, ME3 forces it on you

Okay. I can respect that.

[Conniving_Eagle]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

It's not the traditional strawman, because you agreed with me in the previous statement. But where did this part come from? When did I say I wanted Mass Effect to be some uber-roleplaying experience like Elder Scrolls?

You didn't, and I didn't say you did. Specifically referring to you, in the bold text you highlighted, I said you wanted the balance of role-playing and story the first two games had, while using the backdrop of Elder Scrolls as a way to illustrate that balance. The Elder Scrolls statement is also more of a general response to what a few people in this thread, including AresKeith, specifically DID say they wanted, which was "full control." Mass Effect has never offered anything approaching that.

If you're going to make a general response, either indent or don't do it while quoting somebody else. Goodbye.

Modifié par Conniving_Eagle, 02 août 2012 - 12:20 .

[Nightdragon8]

Honestly less choice = closer to BF3 CoD GoW, clone at that point choices give us a RPG element. at least, even if all our choices mean nothing. Like in kings of Arononor.

sure its 'easier' but now its no longer a RPG is what the game is sposed to be, If I want an action movie i would go and rent one.

I think the biggest issue is that the one thing we can all agree on is that, an RPG has choices, even if tey dont effect the "big picture" then its not really a RPG anymore.

[OMTING52601]

CronoDragoon wrote...

OMTING52601 wrote...

I don't know, TW2's 'morality' is awfully grey but at no point did I feel like the Geralt I was playing suddenly acted out of character based on the dialogue I choose. And really, there was quite of bit of auto-dialogue in TW2,

That's because Geralt only has one character. You can make choices in that game, but Geralt is who he is personality-wise.

I suppose that's true to a point. But I've actually read what few books have been translated. The Geralt in the books is 'x'. The Geralt's I've played in the games are all across the spectrum from very much like the Geralt in the books to very much not and that's all based on how I choose to play him, from dialogue through to quest choices.

It's not perfect and I'm not sure how I really feel about playing a predefinded character, but that's a segue. From a strictly auto dialogue done 'right' vs done 'wrong' perspective, I'd say TW2 had the right idea and BW didn't. FWIW, YMMV

[AresKeith]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

Honestly less choice = closer to BF3 CoD GoW, clone at that point choices give us a RPG element. at least, even if all our choices mean nothing. Like in kings of Arononor.

sure its 'easier' but now its no longer a RPG is what the game is sposed to be, If I want an action movie i would go and rent one.

I think the biggest issue is that the one thing we can all agree on is that, an RPG has choices, even if tey dont effect the "big picture" then its not really a RPG anymore.

yep, thats my biggest problem with how the series turned out, it went from RPG to 3rd person shooter

[CronoDragoon]

Conniving_Eagle wrote...

If you're going to make a general response, either indent or don't do it while quoting somebody else. Goodbye.

Read more carefully. I gave you a hypothetical, and then immediately after showed you how you differed from that hypothetical. That mandates same-paragraph grouping.

[Kunari801]

Nyoka wrote...

You can highlight the "but also learning" part too if you want to balance it out a little.

Logic on the forums?!      

[BatmanPWNS]

If cost was such a problem then maybe they should have never bothered getting Chobot or spending money on MP.

[Tritium315]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

Honestly less choice = closer to BF3 CoD GoW, clone at that point choices give us a RPG element. at least, even if all our choices mean nothing. Like in kings of Arononor.

sure its 'easier' but now its no longer a RPG is what the game is sposed to be, If I want an action movie i would go and rent one.

I think the biggest issue is that the one thing we can all agree on is that, an RPG has choices, even if tey dont effect the "big picture" then its not really a RPG anymore.

Exactly, you can't "play a role" if the dialogue is being chosen for you. Granted there's nothing wrong with games like Uncharted or Gears, but I don't play those for the same reason I play RPG's.

[LucasShark]

Oh good... apparently his brain fell out... and he forgot that ME started out as an RPG>..

Modifié par LucasShark, 02 août 2012 - 12:46 .