624 réponses à ce sujet

[wright1978]

Massa FX wrote...

@xandur. I think the writers tried to innovate on traditional dialog paradigms. I believe Weeks when he says they are learning. A challenge within the game industry is to present something new to the audience. Something no one else has done or thought of.

Unfortunately or fortunately, depending on perspective, RPG players enjoy the details. The nuances. Multiple options and outcomes. Can developers innovate? Yes. Did this one work. Not entirely.

I look forward to Bio's maturity.

I don't mind innovation, afterall the dialogue wheel was an innovation. What i do oppose is removal being marketed as innovation. They would never dare automate large sections of the combat gameplay
 so why is it ok to do so in the dialogue gameplay.

[zeypher]

Auto dialogue has its place like when shep is making comments about enemy stregth etc basically neutral. But auto dialogue should never be used at character defining moments.

[Xellith]

Autodialogue is fine. As long as Shepard isnt being forced into displaying emotions that I have not specified.

Angry at something even though Im sitting at the computer saying "lolwutshepard?" then that means the team failed.

Emotions should be specified by the player. Otherwise it just shows how terrible the team really is.

[TheRealJayDee]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

What I would hope they realize is that dialogue is a gameplay mechanic, not a break from one.

[chemiclord]

Fandango9641 wrote...

CDPR usurped Bioware as my fav developer a while ago, but it's worth mentioning that auto dialogue features prominently in both Witcher games - and to good effect. My objection to AD is ME3 is that Bioware somehow saw fit to remove what many consider to be an important gameplay element for the final game of a trilogy. Boggles my mind, but it might work out for them - let's see how well that DLC sells.

The argument that is often made is that autodialogue works when you have a previously established character outside of player control.  Geralt is NOT the "player's character", he's based off a previously existing book series, the player is just along for the ride.  There's no confusion to be made here.

Shepard, on the other hand, was marketed as "your" Shepard (even though he/she really never was, and people shouldn't have really believed it in the first place).  Bioware also did real good job fooling players into thinking it was (mostly through clumps of meaningless decisions that really didn't change anything within the narrative) through about one and three/fourths of a game (yeah, sorry folks, but the wheels kinda start coming off of "your" Shepard as you start doing the ME2 DLCs, not in ME3).

[Massa FX]

Would it be constructive to point out specific dialog trees that featured inappropriate auto responses?

If you can be civil and specific in your list it may help future content development. ... or not. But it's worth a try.

If you think autodialog is bad and want it changed, make a list. If you want to rant skip this exercise.

[clarkusdarkus]

chemiclord wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

CDPR usurped Bioware as my fav developer a while ago, but it's worth mentioning that auto dialogue features prominently in both Witcher games - and to good effect. My objection to AD is ME3 is that Bioware somehow saw fit to remove what many consider to be an important gameplay element for the final game of a trilogy. Boggles my mind, but it might work out for them - let's see how well that DLC sells.

The argument that is often made is that autodialogue works when you have a previously established character outside of player control.  Geralt is NOT the "player's character", he's based off a previously existing book series, the player is just along for the ride.  There's no confusion to be made here.

Shepard, on the other hand, was marketed as "your" Shepard (even though he/she really never was, and people shouldn't have really believed it in the first place).  Bioware also did real good job fooling players into thinking it was (mostly through clumps of meaningless decisions that really didn't change anything within the narrative) through about one and three/fourths of a game (yeah, sorry folks, but the wheels kinda start coming off of "your" Shepard as you start doing the ME2 DLCs, not in ME3).

This........as much choice or dialogue geralt has or is given, it's still There geralt and not your shepard, your speaking for him rather than yourself kinda thing.....

[Icesong]

Massa FX wrote...

Would it be constructive to point out specific dialog trees that featured inappropriate auto responses?

If you can be civil and specific in your list it may help future content development. ... or not. But it's worth a try.

If you think autodialog is bad and want it changed, make a list. If you want to rant skip this exercise.

There's no point getting into specific failures of auto-dialogue because it will vary per player. Here's one of my five hundred for you:

Liara: The Major has become quite capable.
auto-Shepard: Agreed.
Me: DISAGREED!

Another:

auto-Shepard(to Kaidan about becoming a Spectre): I can't think of anyone more qualified than you.
Me: Uhh, Garrus? Half the people on my ship?

Here's a bonus one:

auto-Shepard: Be careful.
Miranda: I can't promise that Shepard. Could you?
auto-Shepard: No("YES"). I couldn't("I COULD").

More importantly, there's no need to talk about individual lines of auto-dialogue, for the entire concept is anathema to an RPG so speaking broadly about it is sufficient.

Modifié par Icesong, 02 août 2012 - 03:55 .

[AlanC9]

Icesong wrote...

Liara: The Major has become quite capable.
auto-Shepard: Agreed.
Me: DISAGREED!

Another:

auto-Shepard(to Kaidan about becoming a Spectre): I can't think of anyone more qualified than you.
Me: Uhh, Garrus? Half the people on my ship?

You weren't leveling him up or something?

[Icesong]

AlanC9 wrote...

Icesong wrote...

Liara: The Major has become quite capable.
auto-Shepard: Agreed.
Me: DISAGREED!

Another:

auto-Shepard(to Kaidan about becoming a Spectre): I can't think of anyone more qualified than you.
Me: Uhh, Garrus? Half the people on my ship?

You weren't leveling him up or something?

Let's just say I was pleased to have the option to kill him. I'm surprisingly torn on it though! Have two "canon" saves with both outcomes.

[Xandurpein]

Xellith wrote...

Autodialogue is fine. As long as Shepard isnt being forced into displaying emotions that I have not specified.

Angry at something even though Im sitting at the computer saying "lolwutshepard?" then that means the team failed.

Emotions should be specified by the player. Otherwise it just shows how terrible the team really is.

I agree completely. I understand tge writer's desire to add depth to the player character, but it's the player who should infuse the player character with emotions, not the writer. If the writers really wanted to add more visible emotions to Shepard there must be with more player input. Maybe they could have built more on the interrupt system. Add some interrupts for emotions like distress or joy. It could have been cool to watch vent kid die in the beginning and then be able to choose with an interrupt to let Shepard show sadness or even giggle at the absurdity of the situation if he wanted and then have  characters respond to that.

[chemiclord]

Fandango9641 wrote...
I don't disagree; I'm not one that fails to see the benefits of using auto dialogue, I just question the value of diminishing player agency by removing options that were present earlier in the very same series.

The problem here is that they WEREN'T options.  THAT is my issue.

If the choice is either (A) Autodialogue with breaks in the flow of conversation at key moments, or ( Breaking the flow of conversation every ten seconds with inane "options" that end up all saying the same thing... give me (A) every day of the week.  ( is quaint the first time I play it... trying to go a "different path" just to realize it's the exact same one as my first playthrough kills a lot of the replay value.

The best choice would be © Dialogue options that are actually distinct and result in a different conversation path... but for some reason (whether it be resources or VA ability or time or whatever) that was never really a choice, so yeah.

[AlanC9]

chemiclord wrote...
The best choice would be © Dialogue options that are actually distinct and result in a different conversation path... but for some reason (whether it be resources or VA ability or time or whatever) that was never really a choice, so yeah.

Well, the word/VA budget was already substantially larger than the budget for the other two games. And that's for a game of approximately the same size as ME2 -- ME3's a bit smaller than ME1 since the latter had more of what I call "time-wasting crap" but some others call "core RPG features."

Edit: so I wonder if it's at all realistic to say that "ME3 should have had more dialog." Or would all additional Shep dialog options have to come from cuts elsewhere?

Modifié par AlanC9, 02 août 2012 - 07:33 .

[wright1978]

Massa FX wrote...

Would it be constructive to point out specific dialog trees that featured inappropriate auto responses?

If you can be civil and specific in your list it may help future content development. ... or not. But it's worth a try.

If you think autodialog is bad and want it changed, make a list. If you want to rant skip this exercise.

Ok i'll go through auto-dialogue in the opening 10 minutes of the intro up to the arrival of the reapers.

all these i can consider verying degrees of badness

- Your not supposed to call me that anymore James.
- It's not so bad once you get used to the hot food and the soft beds
That why they grounded me and took away my ship?
- That and your good word
- I'm just a soldier. I'm no politician.
- You brought me here to confirm what you already know. The reapers are here.
- Stop them. This isn't about strategy or tactics. This is about survival.
- The reapers are more advanced than us. More powerful, more intelligent. They don't fear us and will never take pity on us.
-The only thing we can. We fight or we die.

There a ton of tiny pieces of auto-dialogue which aren't of major issue

Sounds important, What's going on, Anderson,The reapers, Ashley, Lieutenant commander, No I Hadn't,Move. etc

[chemiclord]

Fandango9641 wrote...
I feel you dude (C sounds perfect), but the amount of auto dialogue we saw in ME3 was more than a little intrusive to those who'd prefer to retain a greater degree of conversational control (however cosmetic). In any case, swapping one out for the other in the last game if three was the big boooo for me.

And I think there's the rub.

Because personally, I DO prefer ME3's method... fewer choices, but the choices you DO make actually make a difference in how the conversation proceeds.

And since I had absolutely no delusion I wasn't playing "my" Shepard after my second playthrough of ME1, I really didn't get hammered by any of the betrayal that hit many other players.

Well, I shouldn't sound so harsh, because yes, Bioware told you Shepard WAS yours.  While I may think that no one should have believed that mularkey (and I do), I can't change the fact they DID say it, and didn't deliver.

[chemiclord]

Fandango9641 wrote...

Ah, then we do disagree. Don't get me wrong, I often enjoy games with a clearly defined protagonistauto dialogue, but I really dont appreciate investing myself in a character I believe to be my own only to have the goalposts moved at the 11th hour. If Bioware really wanted a fixed protagonist they should have introduced himher as such from the very beginning.

I think we agree AND disagree.

We both feel that a dialogue with multiple options that actually create different dialogue paths is ideal.

We disagree on how to proceed if such an option is not possible.  You prefer keeping the illusion of control.  I find the illusion loses its charm very quickly, and can do without it.

Modifié par chemiclord, 02 août 2012 - 09:34 .

[Steve The Seal]

It also irritated me that they have cut down on the "Investigate" option a lot... I often used time to hear their points of view and background before deciding for the appropriate answer

Modifié par Steve The Seal, 02 août 2012 - 09:44 .

[Linkenski]

I actually would've preferred bigger choices and scenes to get cut to get my ME2-style dialogue instead of that bullcrap auto-dialogue in ME3. It ruined the game completely.