81 réponses à ce sujet

[Viglin]

Ive seen countless threads of why Loghain is terrible, and even a few that say he isnt...but l dont think lve seen a thread stating how bad we are[ie as the Grey Warden with all the choices].

Just a few points;
-We get involved in politics, even deciding who will be King of the Dwarves
-For a more powerful army, we can have the Dalish clan wiped out[when really only their Leader wasnt fit to live], have Dwarves sacrificed to become Golems
-We can sacrifce a childs soul for power or sex, or a power to save some time
-We bribe, cheat, steal, lie, murder, seduce to get what we need..even those were "suppossed" to be helping
-We gather armies to force a Decision in the Landsmeet...and if we dont like it, we start killing Nobles[if you dont get enough votes, Arl Emaon starts a riot...just like Loghain does, or Prince Bhelen]
-We take one anyone, even assassin, bloodmages,etc
The List goes on.

I actually called out to the wife in one play through;
"Im becomming Loghain!"

So what makes us any better?
Is it because we felt betrayed cause he pulled out......would we have done the same if roles were reversed?
Is it because he tries to stop us from getting to him[and who wouldnt try to stop an enemy?]

Im not saying he was right or wrong...lm just not seeing how were any better.
After all, were not Paladins, Grey Wardens do what needs to be done.
That is one reason l was not surprised your given the option to make him a Warden...hes a perfect choice[silly me in my first play through went along with Alistars need for revenge...and not the countries. I wont make that mistake next time].

Just my opinion.

[kevinwastaken]

Loghain is a douche, I am much much better. Infinitely so in fact.

[trh5001]

Your trying to stop a blight Loghain is creating a civil war.

[Rainen89]

There's two sides of a civil war, Loghain may be one but Arl eamon and through him the PC and Alistair are the opposing side.

[HarlequinDream]

See, that's where it comes down to player choice.



My Gray Wardens thus far have been fairly moral. They recognized the werewolves' plight and helped them, but not at the expense of the entire clan of elves and chose to destroy the anvil. A few have been willing to lie and steal, but they don't have to. Also, there is nothing that says you have to take in an assassin or a blood mage or a murderer. You have the option of killing Zevran and leaving Sten and killing or hanging Jowan over to the authorities. Connor is also a decision as to how the player wants to handle the situation, and the Landsmeet can end in a duel, rather than a bloodbath, if your character is skilled enough to maneuver it.



So, really, your argument only holds if you choose to play an immoral character, which the game completely allows. In that case, it makes perfect sense to either kill Loghain for revenge rather than feeling it's justice OR recruit him at the end.

[LaztRezort]

Viglin wrote...

So what makes us any better?
Is it because we felt betrayed cause he pulled out......would we have done the same if roles were reversed?
Is it because he tries to stop us from getting to him[and who wouldnt try to stop an enemy?]

Im not saying he was right or wrong...lm just not seeing how were any better.
After all, were not Paladins, Grey Wardens do what needs to be done.

Well, if you are going for the quintessential GW character, then you could argue that Loghain has his priorities dangerously mixed up.  Sure, a GW might not take the nicest road to the goal, but at least they realize the real threat:  the Blight.  Loghain, trying to save Ferelden from what he though was the biggest threat (outside countries), very nearly doomed it by destroying the only thing that could stop the Blight:  Grey Wardens.

Because of his confused loyalites, he makes for a dangerous opponent to the Grey Warden cause (until he stripped of power, at least).

[Rainen89]

Heartlocker wrote...

Loghain is only worried about a cottage that's burning around him, AKA the throne. Grey wardens dealt with the blight in their minds, not to seize the htrone.

Technically Loghain is just trying to "unite" Ferelden so they can destroy the Blight, pretty much exactly similar to how Bhelen is going about it. He believes that unless everyone is completely united for him and Anora that they'll fail, he simply doesn't acknowledge that Grey Wardens are actually needed, he thinks they're just warriors, nothing crucial about them. Through his mind he is doing just what we're doing, he's just being manipulated.

[T0paze]

Because people in the game react to Loghain's faults much stonger than they react to yours, which is sad.

That being said, not everything in your list is reprehensible. Being involved in politics is no crime, and it's widely acknowledged that the Grey Wardens can recruit pretty much anyone as they see fit - for the greater good and things like that. However, the game's reaction to the player's choices is indeed limited.

Modifié par T0paze, 19 décembre 2009 - 09:30 .

[Viglin]

LaztRezort wrote...

Viglin wrote...

So what makes us any better?
Is it because we felt betrayed cause he pulled out......would we have done the same if roles were reversed?
Is it because he tries to stop us from getting to him[and who wouldnt try to stop an enemy?]

Im not saying he was right or wrong...lm just not seeing how were any better.
After all, were not Paladins, Grey Wardens do what needs to be done.

Well, if you are going for the quintessential GW character, then you could argue that Loghain has his priorities dangerously mixed up.  Sure, a GW might not take the nicest road to the goal, but at least they realize the real threat:  the Blight.  Loghain, trying to save Ferelden from what he though was the biggest threat (outside countries), very nearly doomed it by destroying the only thing that could stop the Blight:  Grey Wardens.

Because of his confused loyalites, he makes for a dangerous opponent to the Grey Warden cause (until he stripped of power, at least).

You do make a great point there, and its the one major flaw in the story that myself and my wife cannot understand.

Ok, so first off Loghain doesnt believe its a Blight...thus Grey Wardens are not needed. I can understand this...hell the King himself states he believes its not a Blight.
But later on, when the Arch Demon is revealed...you'd think he'd see that one error in his plans and make a change...considering, theres a very good chance at least 2 Grey Wardens are not from the country he's trying to save Feledren from[Alistar and the Pc].

Of course, if that wasnt there,then l guess he wouldnt be such a villian...

[LaztRezort]

Loghhain doesn't necessarily know that GW are needed to destroy the Archdemon -- that's an inside secret, from what I gather. So, while his ignorance can perhaps be forgiven, it is a dangerous ignorance nonetheless.

[Viglin]

T0paze wrote...

Because people in the game react to Loghain's faults much stonger than they react to yours, which is sad.

That being said, not everything in your list is reprehensible. Being involved in politics is no crime, and it's widely acknowledged that the Grey Wardens can recruit pretty much anyone as they see fit - for the greater good and things like that. However, the game's reaction to the player's choices is indeed limited.

Hell yes, l remember sweating over the Decision of Connor...time vs a child soul, for a good ten minutes.
To later, in other playthroughs, find out...no one really cares that much.
Or were you  kill Denerim guards who try to apprenhend you for stealing. You know, actually doing their job trying to make the streets safe...like your suppposed to be doing in "Back alley Justice".
And no one cares.

Hopefully in DAO2...our less then noble choices will have real reprecussions..towards us.

[HarlequinDream]

Viglin wrote...

LaztRezort wrote...

Viglin wrote...

So what makes us any better?
Is it because we felt betrayed cause he pulled out......would we have done the same if roles were reversed?
Is it because he tries to stop us from getting to him[and who wouldnt try to stop an enemy?]

Im not saying he was right or wrong...lm just not seeing how were any better.
After all, were not Paladins, Grey Wardens do what needs to be done.

Well, if you are going for the quintessential GW character, then you could argue that Loghain has his priorities dangerously mixed up.  Sure, a GW might not take the nicest road to the goal, but at least they realize the real threat:  the Blight.  Loghain, trying to save Ferelden from what he though was the biggest threat (outside countries), very nearly doomed it by destroying the only thing that could stop the Blight:  Grey Wardens.

Because of his confused loyalites, he makes for a dangerous opponent to the Grey Warden cause (until he stripped of power, at least).

You do make a great point there, and its the one major flaw in the story that myself and my wife cannot understand.

Ok, so first off Loghain doesnt believe its a Blight...thus Grey Wardens are not needed. I can understand this...hell the King himself states he believes its not a Blight.
But later on, when the Arch Demon is revealed...you'd think he'd see that one error in his plans and make a change...considering, theres a very good chance at least 2 Grey Wardens are not from the country he's trying to save Feledren from[Alistar and the Pc].

Of course, if that wasnt there,then l guess he wouldnt be such a villian...

But the Archdemon doesn't appear until after the Landsmeet, if I've understood things correctly the times I've played. Everyone else akcnowledges that, yes, the Gray Wardens know it's a Blight, but I didn't think that until you see Riordan again at Redcliffe the Archdemon for the Blight had been seen.

It's then that Riordan tells you that it's finally appeared.

[T0paze]

Viglin wrote...

LaztRezort wrote...

Viglin wrote...

So what makes us any better?
Is it because we felt betrayed cause he pulled out......would we have done the same if roles were reversed?
Is it because he tries to stop us from getting to him[and who wouldnt try to stop an enemy?]

Im not saying he was right or wrong...lm just not seeing how were any better.
After all, were not Paladins, Grey Wardens do what needs to be done.

Well, if you are going for the quintessential GW character, then you could argue that Loghain has his priorities dangerously mixed up.  Sure, a GW might not take the nicest road to the goal, but at least they realize the real threat:  the Blight.  Loghain, trying to save Ferelden from what he though was the biggest threat (outside countries), very nearly doomed it by destroying the only thing that could stop the Blight:  Grey Wardens.

Because of his confused loyalites, he makes for a dangerous opponent to the Grey Warden cause (until he stripped of power, at least).

You do make a great point there, and its the one major flaw in the story that myself and my wife cannot understand.

Ok, so first off Loghain doesnt believe its a Blight...thus Grey Wardens are not needed. I can understand this...hell the King himself states he believes its not a Blight.
But later on, when the Arch Demon is revealed...you'd think he'd see that one error in his plans and make a change...considering, theres a very good chance at least 2 Grey Wardens are not from the country he's trying to save Feledren from[Alistar and the Pc].

Of course, if that wasnt there,then l guess he wouldnt be such a villian...

He can't do that.

He has already made the Grey Wardens a scapegoat for this crimes at Ostagar. He'd have an incredibly hard time explaining this sudden change of heart.

Modifié par T0paze, 19 décembre 2009 - 09:40 .

[Viglin]

LaztRezort wrote...

Loghhain doesn't necessarily know that GW are needed to destroy the Archdemon -- that's an inside secret, from what I gather. So, while his ignorance can perhaps be forgiven, it is a dangerous ignorance nonetheless.

Are you sure...cause when you have the meeting with the King just before the Tower of Ishal at Ostagar, you get the;
*Duncan-My King, what if the ArchDemon appears?
*King-Isnt that what your men are for?
*Duncan-Yes your Majesty.

Or something like that.

[darkmax1974]

remember that Loghain has no idea, whatsoever, that a Grey Warden is needed to kill the Archdemon. Heck! Even our charcaters did not know that if not for Riordan.



but I killed Loghain anyway. there's only one hero in this story.

[HarlequinDream]

Viglin wrote...

LaztRezort wrote...

Loghhain doesn't necessarily know that GW are needed to destroy the Archdemon -- that's an inside secret, from what I gather. So, while his ignorance can perhaps be forgiven, it is a dangerous ignorance nonetheless.

Are you sure...cause when you have the meeting with the King just before the Tower of Ishal at Ostagar, you get the;
*Duncan-My King, what if the ArchDemon appears?
*King-Isnt that what your men are for?
*Duncan-Yes your Majesty.

Or something like that.

Yes. If the Archdemon appears.

Cailin believes Duncan that it's probably a Blight. He says in the welcome that he's disappointed that there haven't been signs of it yet, but Duncan warns him that it appearing is a possibility.

ETA: Loghain also chimes in right after the conversation you mentioned, stating that there's no sign of a dragon in the Wilds. And it is common knowledge that the Archdemon at least takes the form of the dragon. That's been recorded in the Chant of Light and all that.

Modifié par HarlequinDream, 19 décembre 2009 - 09:43 .

[steelfire_dragon]

Ostagar was a Death trap from the begining.... Ostagar's fault was with Cailin, not the Wardens or Loghain...

[KnightofPhoenix]

Loghain doesn't know that the Grey Wardens are needed to really kill an Archdemon, because that's a secret Grey Wardens do not reveal (the fact that they are tainted). So Loghain merely presumed they were stories and myths. Can't say I blame him.

The PC is not better than Loghain, other than the fact that he wins and Loghain loses.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 décembre 2009 - 09:45 .

[LaztRezort]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Loghain doesn't know that the Grey Wardens are needed to really kill an Archdemon, because that's a secret Grey Wardens do not reveal (the fact that they are tainted). So Loghain merely presumed they were stories and myths. Can't say I blame him.

The PC is not better than Loghain, other than the fact that he wins and Loghain loses.

I believe this^ to be words of truth.

[T0paze]

steelfire_dragon wrote...

Ostagar was a Death trap from the begining.... Ostagar's fault was with Cailin, not the Wardens or Loghain...

Nah. It was not going that bad.

Ironically, Loghain's original plan was quite decent. They did have some problem at the tower, but even at that time the battle was far from lost. It was his treachery that killed Cailen, Duncan and all of their men.

[Viglin]

HarlequinDream wrote...

Viglin wrote...

LaztRezort wrote...

Loghhain doesn't necessarily know that GW are needed to destroy the Archdemon -- that's an inside secret, from what I gather. So, while his ignorance can perhaps be forgiven, it is a dangerous ignorance nonetheless.

Are you sure...cause when you have the meeting with the King just before the Tower of Ishal at Ostagar, you get the;
*Duncan-My King, what if the ArchDemon appears?
*King-Isnt that what your men are for?
*Duncan-Yes your Majesty.

Or something like that.

Yes. If the Archdemon appears.

Cailin believes Duncan that it's probably a Blight. He says in the welcome that he's disappointed that there haven't been signs of it yet, but Duncan warns him that it appearing is a possibility.

ETA: Loghain also chimes in right after the conversation you mentioned, stating that there's no sign of a dragon in the Wilds. And it is common knowledge that the Archdemon at least takes the form of the dragon. That's been recorded in the Chant of Light and all that.

Thats my point thou, l dont think its a secret Grey Wardens are needed to kil lthe ArchDemon, otherwise such a conversation is pointless.
Now as to how they do it, that maybe a secret..but the point is neither the King or Loghain thought it was a real Blight cause no Archdemon...thus Grey Wardens are little more then soldiers with a special sense...not really needed when you can see an entire army of Darkspawn:)

[HarlequinDream]

T0paze wrote...

steelfire_dragon wrote...

Ostagar was a Death trap from the begining.... Ostagar's fault was with Cailin, not the Wardens or Loghain...

Nah. It was not going that bad.

Ironically, Loghain's original plan was quite decent. They did have some problem at the tower, but even at that time the battle was far from lost. It was his treachery that killed Cailen, Duncan and all of their men.

This.

I also firmly believe that Loghain knew the kind of person Cailin was and kept telling him "Oh, it's far too dangerous for you to be on the front lines" to make sure that Cailin was on the front lines.

[AtreiyaN7]

Okay, first the list of most of Loghain's crimes/problems/issues:

1) He turns on Cailan, the son of his former king, Maric.
2) He throws the nation into chaos and stars a civil war.
3) He betrays you all, turns tail & runs at Ostagar.
4) He smears your order's name and tries to blame the outcome of Ostagar on the Wardens being cowards.
5) He hires the Crows to assassinate you.
6) He hires bounty-hunters to kill you.
7) He possesses an irrational xenophobic hatred of Orlais (although after getting through part of Stolen Throne, maybe I can see why he hates them so much).
8) Engaging in slave-trading.
9) Hiring Jowan to poison Arl Eamon.
10) Letting Arl Howe run rampant and do whatever the frak he wanted...and rewarding said behavior with more titles than you can shake a stick at.
a) Howe holds Vaughn captive (but he is a jerk).
innocent elf held in his dunegon (Soris).
c) Riordan, fellow Warden, drugged and then held captive.
d) Imrinic, a TEMPLAR, who chased Jowan being held captive.
e) that soldier whose name I can't remember - also held captive.
f) torturing, yes, TORTURING Bann Sighard's son.
g) and if you're a human noble, that nasty betrayal by Arl Howe in Highever too.
11) Oh, and Loghain also has those soldiers trying to kill you at Lothering.

Now you can try to paint it any way you want and try to excuse it all away, but you know what? I think that no matter what, assuming your Warden is basically a good and decent person then your Warden is better than Loghain on pretty much every level. Talk to NPCs - there's one old mage in the mage origin who talks about the time he had a chance to join the Wardens but turned it down (called them noble I believe). Maybe in modern times Wardens a're more pragmatic (certainly about who they're willing to recruit), but while they'll make hard decisions and do unpleasant things to stop the Blight, they're still a lot more decent and upstanding than Loghain is (unless your character is jerk I suppose). You may or may not have seen it, but even Morrigan has some party banter with Alistair (saw it last night) commenting on Warden recruiting. She says that Wardens formerly recruited noble heroes, blah blah (I paraphrase) and then ends with a comment about them lowering their standards to accept someone like Alistair. Now of course she was being sarcastic and snarky, but I'm sure that there is some truth to what she says about Warden recruiting in the distant past.

To have done what the first Wardens did, I'm going to have to assume that they were noble, heroic, honorable, and capable of great sacrifice. So yeah, again, I think Wardens are better than Loghain, even if you throw in the more modern pragmatic approach to fighting Blights/recruiting.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 19 décembre 2009 - 09:52 .

[Skellimancer]

Well last playthrough my character was much worse than Loghain.

After every bad story arc, Loghain and i toasted to the execution of Alistair, laughed at Morrigans offer before kicking her out of the city, then we both went off to kill the Archdemon. Loghain made his sacrifice and all was well.

It didn't quite say it in the epilogue but i like to think my character went with Sten to join his army and prepare for the invasion of Ferelden, where i return to execute Anora, place her head on a pike and declare the lands as Qunari property.

Best ending ever.

Modifié par Skellimancer, 19 décembre 2009 - 09:53 .