81 réponses à ce sujet

[thegreateski]

Viglin wrote...
Just a few points;
-We get involved in politics, even deciding who will be King of the Dwarves
-For a more powerful army, we can have the Dalish clan wiped out[when really only their Leader wasnt fit to live], have Dwarves sacrificed to become Golems
-We can sacrifce a childs soul for power or sex, or a power to save some time
-We bribe, cheat, steal, lie, murder, seduce to get what we need..even those were "suppossed" to be helping
-We gather armies to force a Decision in the Landsmeet...and if we dont like it, we start killing Nobles[if you dont get enough votes, Arl Emaon starts a riot...just like Loghain does, or Prince Bhelen]
-We take one anyone, even assassin, bloodmages,etc
The List goes on.

And none of it would be necessary had Loghain not been such a douche.

[Creature 1]

-We get involved in politics, even deciding who will be King of the Dwarves  Did this. 
-For a more powerful army, we can have the Dalish clan wiped out[when really only their Leader wasnt fit to live], have Dwarves sacrificed to become Golems  Didn't do this. 
-We can sacrifce a childs soul for power or sex, or a power to save some time  Didn't do this. 
-We bribe, cheat, steal, lie, murder, seduce to get what we need..even those were "suppossed" to be helping  Did some of this! 
-We gather armies to force a Decision in the Landsmeet...and if we dont like it, we start killing Nobles[if you dont get enough votes, Arl Emaon starts a riot...just like Loghain does, or Prince Bhelen]  They started it first! 
-We take one anyone, even assassin, bloodmages,etc  Did this. 

That is one reason l was not surprised your given the option to make him a Warden...hes a perfect choice[silly me in my first play through went along with Alistars need for revenge...and not the countries. I wont make that mistake next time].

I don't think he's a good choice.  He's not trustworthy--he sacrificed an entire army to the darkspawn to better his odds of keeping the Orlesians out of the country.  Not only was he treacherous, his paranoia led him to focus his attention on the wrong threat.  There's nothing about him becoming a gray warden that should make him suddenly more reliable. 

[Creature 1]

Viglin wrote...
But thats my point exactly.

No matter what we chose, were not seen as villans.
If we do the take the most terrible of choices, at the end...we are still seen as Heroes.

Maybe, if you consider Vlad Tepes was a local hero, but he was also remembered for his sadism.  Ferelden will remember your gray warden defeated the Archdemon, but they'll also remember the atrocities committed on the way. 

[Tirigon]

Viglin wrote...

Ive seen countless threads of why Loghain is terrible, and even a few that say he isnt...but l dont think lve seen a thread stating how bad we are[ie as the Grey Warden with all the choices].

Just a few points;
-We get involved in politics, even deciding who will be King of the Dwarves
-For a more powerful army, we can have the Dalish clan wiped out[when really only their Leader wasnt fit to live], have Dwarves sacrificed to become Golems
-We can sacrifce a childs soul for power or sex, or a power to save some time
-We bribe, cheat, steal, lie, murder, seduce to get what we need..even those were "suppossed" to be helping
-We gather armies to force a Decision in the Landsmeet...and if we dont like it, we start killing Nobles[if you dont get enough votes, Arl Emaon starts a riot...just like Loghain does, or Prince Bhelen]
-We take one anyone, even assassin, bloodmages,etc
The List goes on.

I actually called out to the wife in one play through;
"Im becomming Loghain!"

So what makes us any better?
Is it because we felt betrayed cause he pulled out......would we have done the same if roles were reversed?
Is it because he tries to stop us from getting to him[and who wouldnt try to stop an enemy?]

Im not saying he was right or wrong...lm just not seeing how were any better.
After all, were not Paladins, Grey Wardens do what needs to be done.
That is one reason l was not surprised your given the option to make him a Warden...hes a perfect choice[silly me in my first play through went along with Alistars need for revenge...and not the countries. I wont make that mistake next time].

Just my opinion.

Loghain is a traitor.
That´s why were better.
I might do some bad things (for example siding with a demon to get blood magic), bad I would never betray anyone. I dont play as the paladin-type, and I would be ready to kill every Fereldan noble to become King, as I stated in some other threads. But Loghain is a coward and a traitor.
Im a firm believer that the ends DO justify the means. Therefore I dont consider it as bad what the wardens do. But Loghain´s goal is to become tyrant, not to improve anything. Oh, and he sold elfs as slaves. Just for that he deserves to die as painful as possible.
(I´m aware that the player has the choice to sell those slaves himself. But if you do that, YOU are really not better than Loghain. I didnt, and I´ll never do, no matter how often I´ll play DAO before it becomes boring.)

[Rainen89]

Didn't you already betray Eamon by letting his son secretly remain possessed to learn blood magic?

[Whailor]

I simply am better because I say so, I need no other excuse or anything.

[ReubenLiew]

So we're as bad as Loghain on the hypothetical reason that we CAN choose to be as bad as Loghain?



I think I'm missing some sort of logic jump here.

[DariusKalera]

Creature 1 wrote...

Viglin wrote...
But thats my point exactly.

No matter what we chose, were not seen as villans.
If we do the take the most terrible of choices, at the end...we are still seen as Heroes.

Maybe, if you consider Vlad Tepes was a local hero, but he was also remembered for his sadism.  Ferelden will remember your gray warden defeated the Archdemon, but they'll also remember the atrocities committed on the way. 

No, they won't.

The disturbing aspects of Vlad Tepes/Vlad the Impaler/Dracula, are only known because some of his enemies survived and were able to put them in writing.

By the end of the game, all fo the PCs enemies are dead.  There is no one left to remind the populace that you commited atrocities and so they are forgotten and eventually, you are a hero with no black marks against himself/herself.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Rainen89 wrote...

Heartlocker wrote...

Loghain is only worried about a cottage that's burning around him, AKA the throne. Grey wardens dealt with the blight in their minds, not to seize the htrone.

Technically Loghain is just trying to "unite" Ferelden so they can destroy the Blight, pretty much exactly similar to how Bhelen is going about it. He believes that unless everyone is completely united for him and Anora that they'll fail, he simply doesn't acknowledge that Grey Wardens are actually needed, he thinks they're just warriors, nothing crucial about them. Through his mind he is doing just what we're doing, he's just being manipulated.

No, Loghain is not.  This cannot be stated enough: he does not believe it is a Blight.  He attempts to kill all of Ferelden's darkspawn fighters at a time when a horde is massing merely because he feels that Orlais is plotting something.

[Tirigon]

Rainen89 wrote...

Didn't you already betray Eamon by letting his son secretly remain possessed to learn blood magic?

No, because I never said to him I would save his stupid son. If I had had the choice, I would even have killed Connor AND Isolde. I hate this family so much, I´m actually quite annoyed that you are forced to help them.

[SarEnyaDor]

I don't know about you, but I didn't do any of that stuff - except getting involved in the dwarf politics because THEY MADE ME! If I could have skipped the dwarves I would have, but noooo, have to fulfill all the treaty quests before you can go to the Landsmeet.



Loghain WAS a hero, who became obsessed and paranoid and let his mental issues destroy the very country he was suppossedly trying to save. I was a victim of circumstance trying the best I could to save a country full of ingrates from death and damnation.



I am loads better than Loghain, not to mention saner and prettier and nicer smelling.

[thegreateski]

Only thing I like about Loghain is the fact that Anora has a statue of him erected outside the Orlesian Embassy in Denerim



If that isn't a big F U to the Orlesians then I don't know what is.

[skotie]

Considering it has always been Grey Wardens that stop and end blights, what's Loghain's real excuse for trying to destroy your entire order? Here the guy leaves his King to die because he thinks the blight is such a threat and thinks hes acting in the best interest of his country, while at the same time blaming his death on the Grey Wardens who, throughout history have been the only ones to EVER be able to stop a blight, and says they are in league with the darkspawn their ancient enemy, the damn reason Grey Wardens even exist. I understand Loghain doesn't know they are essential, but for the love of god you don't try to slay the only order that has ever been able to stop an apocalypse, that's just ignorant and stupid. He didn't even have a good cause for doing this against them, other then Loghains an arrogant idiot who should have listend to his king but thought the king was childish because of his great respect for the Grey Wardens.

As far as the PC being better than Loghain eh.... that's really up to your PCs decisions, I usually don't slay the elves, leave the anvil in operation, help the King who murders all his brother to take the thrown, let any of Eamon's family die because its easier, kill the mages, or destroy the ashes for some crazy dragon worshiping nutcases. The biggest crimes my PC commits are usually for quests, since to get any decent amount of gold you have to be ask for it and do shady tasks for people, but without it your hardly geared enough to take on the Arch Demon.

Modifié par skotie, 20 décembre 2009 - 12:40 .

[Spartansfan8888]

I wondered as well my first playthrough why we were fighting Loghain at the Landsmeet instead of all uniting against the Blight. But then it hit me... he tried to kill all the Grey Wardens! He is skilled in rhetoric but clearly cannot follow through on his promises. He thinks he can stop the Blight.. you KNOW he cannot and you are the only one who can. If he wants to help once I'm in charge, that's fine but until we have control there is no way Fereldan will beat the Blight.

[Laurelinde]

For starters, because not all of 'us' Grey Wardens are the same - if we were, there wouldn't be multiple dialogue options, party setups, classes, favour/alignments, etc.



And secondly, because it's human nature to judge people who harm us personally more harshly than those who don't affect us, or than we do ourselves. Nobody wants to believe they're the enemy. It's just not how we work.

[thegreateski]

Spartansfan8888 wrote...

I wondered as well my first playthrough why we were fighting Loghain at the Landsmeet instead of all uniting against the Blight. But then it hit me... he tried to kill all the Grey Wardens! He is skilled in rhetoric but clearly cannot follow through on his promises. He thinks he can stop the Blight.. you KNOW he cannot and you are the only one who can. If he wants to help once I'm in charge, that's fine but until we have control there is no way Fereldan will beat the Blight.

Correction.

He DID kill all the Grey Wardens.

Save you and Alistair. Lets be honest, Alistair isn't much of a Warden.

[JaegerBane]

skotie wrote...

Considering it has always been Grey Wardens that stop and end blights, what's Loghain's real excuse for trying to destroy your entire order? Here the guy leaves his King to die because he thinks the blight is such a threat and thinks hes acting in the best interest of his country, while at the same time blaming his death on the Grey Wardens who, throughout history have been the only ones to EVER be able to stop a blight, and says they are in league with the darkspawn their ancient enemy, the damn reason Grey Wardens even exist. I understand Loghain doesn't know they are essential, but for the love of god you don't try to slay the only order that has ever been able to stop an apocalypse, that's just ignorant and stupid. He didn't even have a good cause for doing this against them, other then Loghains an arrogant idiot who should have listend to his king but thought the king was childish because of his great respect for the Grey Wardens.

He doesn't have an excuse. I don't think Loghain actually believes that the Grey Wardens are unnecessary, it's just he needs *someone* to blame for Cailan's death in the public eye otherwise the blame falls to him.

He is arrogant and he is stupid, but to be fair, I agree with his assessments regarding Cailan - at least as far as believing the guy was a bit naive. I think killing him off was just absurd, however. 

At least Loghain has a good reason for being arrogant and stupid, though, all those mental scars. Ser Cauthrien has no excuse, the pathetic little whiner that she is. I love how she rationalises off some of the most depraved acts Loghain carries out as 'required' or whatever, but she has no problems with leaving Cailan to die just because the kid was a bit impetuous. Seriously, one of the most satisfying parts of the game for me was when Leliana decapitated her with extreme prejudice. See if the little cow can still whinge about he greater good without head.

As far as the PC being better than Loghain eh.... that's really up to your PCs decisions, I usually don't slay the elves, leave the anvil in operation, help the King who murders all his brother to take the thrown, let any of Eamon's family die because its easier, kill the mages, or destroy the ashes for some crazy dragon worshiping nutcases. The biggest crimes my PC commits are usually for quests, since to get any decent amount of gold you have to be ask for it and do shady tasks for people, but without it your hardly geared enough to take on the Arch Demon.

Same. My mage wasn't even willing to allow the Desire Demon holding Connor's soul to claim him despite the power of Blood Magic being offered (though he did change the terms of the deal by saying that he wouldn't butcher her if she told him about Blood Magic, renounced her claim and buggered off )

[JaegerBane]

Spartansfan8888 wrote...

I wondered as well my first playthrough why we were fighting Loghain at the Landsmeet instead of all uniting against the Blight. But then it hit me... he tried to kill all the Grey Wardens! He is skilled in rhetoric but clearly cannot follow through on his promises. He thinks he can stop the Blight.. you KNOW he cannot and you are the only one who can. If he wants to help once I'm in charge, that's fine but until we have control there is no way Fereldan will beat the Blight.

I don't know about being skilled in rhetoric. His justification for Slavery - particularly in a country that spent a long time in a vichy-france type occupation - was borderline nonsensical, let alone poorly worded for the target audience.

And let's not forget his whole diatribe when the Landsmeet votes against him. He pretty much kisses goodbye to any justification he could possibly have for doing what he's doing.

[Iozeph]

Problem is- Loghain didn't really create the civil war. It was a powder keg, where, in this case, the fuse had already been lit. Loghain simply had the good sense to get behind cover and then take advantage of the ensuing confusion.

It's not impossible that had Loghaine charged, and had not fled the field, that that all of the forces at Ostagar would have been overwhelmed and killed. You'd have Cailin and his cavalier attitude toward strategy to blame. With Loghain also out of the picture you'd have one less stabilising force in the realm.

Anora would be challenged for leadership almost immediately by the likes of Eamon and other nobles that share his opinion of her lowbourne nature. There's your civil war right there. With most of Ferelden's soldiery dead at Ostagar. Eamon would call for a Landsmeet and demand a new monarch be chosen from the assembled nobels. He would put his own name out there, and reluctantly accept, all for the good of the realm, of course.

It's one of the unappealing parts of Dragon Age. Nobody is innocent. Nobody is completely likable. And every character is bent just enough to be capable of doing just about anything if pressed.

When seen in such a light it's difficult to pin everything on a character like Loghain. What is he doing that any one of the others wouldn't have done in his position? Even the best and most beloved of Kings and Queens relied upon spies and assassins.

Modifié par Iozeph, 20 décembre 2009 - 01:33 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

To those saying that Loghain started the civil war. A civil war is never started by one side. When Loghain proclaimed himself regent (with the Queen's approval), the arls of the bannorns, including Teagan refused to submit, thus the civil war was started. If the arls and banns had rallied under Loghain, then no civil war would have started.



Of course this is to be expected. Ferelden was always mired by civil wars amongst its lords. And these tendencies are unleashed with the absence of a king.



Now where Loghain was at fault is thinking that he is capable of uniting the land under his rule. But the land cannot be united without a king, even if it is, de facto, a useless king. But as a firgurehead, that king can provide unity. So Loghain over-estimated his popularity amongst the arls and banns (and underestimated their greed and power mongering).



Loghain's actions are blameworthy because they didn't produce good results. Had he done all that he did and proved to be succesful (like so many actual real world leaders). Then his actions would have been fully justified.

[The Capital Gaultier]

Iozeph wrote...

It's not impossible that had Loghaine charged, and had not fled the field, that that all of the forces at Ostagar would have been overwhelmed and killed. You'd have Cailin and his cavalier attitude toward strategy to blame. With Loghain also out of the picture you'd have one less stabilising force in the realm.

That never happens in warfare, though.

[kevinwastaken]

So far the arguments I'm seeing in support of Loghain are flimsy, and in many cases completely excavated from anal cavities.



It is the kind of weak reasoning ability often employed by people who represent themselves in court proceedings. Huge payoff in the lulz department.

[JaegerBane]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Loghain's actions are blameworthy because they didn't produce good results. Had he done all that he did and proved to be succesful (like so many actual real world leaders). Then his actions would have been fully justified.

Sort of. I'm not sure he could have honestly ever justified Howe's behaviour and excesses, or the whole slave trade business, even if he's successfully united Ferelden. His defence in the landsmeet against both of his actions in that regard are really, really poor.

To be honest, I didn't even understand what he was trying to say about the Elves. At one point that stupid Cauthrien pleb seems to imply he needed the money, whereas later he tries to say something along the lines of 'it's really nasty in there so if they're enslaved it doesn't matter'.

In a country that was effectively enslaved a few decades ago, he choice of justifications left a lot to be desired.

[DariusKalera]

LostScout wrote...

Loghain started the civil war by betraying the rightful king, resulting in his death and the destruction of much of the army, then declaring himself regent for the adult queen, who needs no regent, then demanding the bannorn follow his command. He had no right or authority to do any of these things. His pathological fear and hatred of Orlesians and the possibility that they might re-occupy Ferelden results in the near destruction of the country he claims to love. He apparently believes he is the only one qualified to decide what is in Ferelden's best interest and poisons, murders, tortures and enslaves anyone who disagrees with him. That meets my definition of evil. Cailan was naive, but he died following Loghain's plan, and if Loghain had followed through instead of withdrawing at the crucial moment, it might have been successful. Of course, then it would have been a much shorter game, so Bravo Loghain!

To be honest, the civil war did not begin until Teagan and a few other of the Bannorn walked out of the meeting.  They left without any real proof of wrong doing on Loghain's part.  Yes, they had suspicions, but that was it.  At ths point, they are just as much to blame for the civil war as Loghain is.

Now, we do not know what exactly was all involved in Loghain declaring himself regent.  He might have asked for Anora's permission in doing so, or, and this is more likely since there is historical precedence, that a woman can not rule the country alone.  If the king dies then a regent is appointed until the queen remarries or until the heir, the child of the king and queen, or next in line, king's younger brother for example, are ready to assume the throne.