81 réponses à ce sujet

[fantasypisces]

Viglin wrote...

Ive seen countless threads of why Loghain is terrible, and even a few that say he isnt...but l dont think lve seen a thread stating how bad we are[ie as the Grey Warden with all the choices].

Just a few points;
-We get involved in politics, even deciding who will be King of the Dwarves
-For a more powerful army, we can have the Dalish clan wiped out[when really only their Leader wasnt fit to live], have Dwarves sacrificed to become Golems
-We can sacrifce a childs soul for power or sex, or a power to save some time
-We bribe, cheat, steal, lie, murder, seduce to get what we need..even those were "suppossed" to be helping
-We gather armies to force a Decision in the Landsmeet...and if we dont like it, we start killing Nobles[if you dont get enough votes, Arl Emaon starts a riot...just like Loghain does, or Prince Bhelen]
-We take one anyone, even assassin, bloodmages,etc
The List goes on.

I actually called out to the wife in one play through;
"Im becomming Loghain!"

So what makes us any better?
Is it because we felt betrayed cause he pulled out......would we have done the same if roles were reversed?
Is it because he tries to stop us from getting to him[and who wouldnt try to stop an enemy?]

Im not saying he was right or wrong...lm just not seeing how were any better.
After all, were not Paladins, Grey Wardens do what needs to be done.
That is one reason l was not surprised your given the option to make him a Warden...hes a perfect choice[silly me in my first play through went along with Alistars need for revenge...and not the countries. I wont make that mistake next time].

Just my opinion.

Well , umm, yeah, if you play the so called 'evil' path you are no better than Loghain. Hence why most consider it the 'evil' path. I don't get what we are discussing?

My character sided with the Elves and Cured the werewolves, I did get involved in dwarven politics and destroyed the anvil. But there was no dwarven king, only candidates, I didn't betray a King like Loghain did (essentially meaning he betrayed his country). I did not wipe out a whole group of people like Loghain did. So yes, I am better than him, and I did cut off his head and smile when his blood splattered his daughter (who still considers him a hero, that hag).

Now if I played the 'evil' path then I wouldn't be any better than Loghain, but doesn't that just make him 'evil'? And if you are still evil, you wouldn't really care. If you liked alistar as a friend you would kill loghain. If you wanted to be king (rule with Anora) you would kill Loghain so she isn't influenced. If you had interest in neither you woudl spare Loghain. This is a non issue.

I see no issue, move along everyone, move along.

[Thor Rand Al]

I don't understand how Anora could defend and stand by her father after everything he has done... The way she talks about him, how she defends him makes me sick... He's murdered the King by pulling out his troops, he's put Ferelden in civil war because he's so obsessed with the Orleasians. He allows for slavery in the Alienage. He lets Howl do his atrocities with prisoners, poisons Arl Eamon. He's basically destroying Fereldan with his fear of the Orleasians coming bk that he can't even see that what he was trying to protect he's tearing apart by his onesitedness. Despite all of this is how Anora seems so devoted to her father n so willing to forgive him when he killed her husband. I know blood is thicker than water but damn Loghain killed her husband, he may not of put the blade literally to Cailan but by leaving the King the way he did he might as well have. N Anora can forgive this. That is just beyond me. She says she cared deeply for Cailan, they were a good match, obviously she didn't love him that much... I noticed that at the end how she had a monument built for Loghain but not her own husband n this is who we have to choose from to sit on the throne besides Alistair... It doesn't seem like she even cares that much about Fereldan as she says she does by excusing everything that Loghain did. This I don't understand


Edit:  Oh ya n can't forget about the Cicle of Magi either, If I remember correctly his name is mentioned somewhere in of the Magi quest.

Modifié par Thor Rand Al, 20 décembre 2009 - 07:01 .

[Maria Caliban]

Taleroth wrote...

None of my characters have done half the crap you cite as evidence.

Seriously.

"You could kill a puppy dog, so how are you better than someone who drowns an entire litter?!"

Because I *didn't* do that crap and I *stopped* the man who was doing it.

[AntiChri5]

DariusKalera wrote...

LostScout wrote...

Loghain started the civil war by betraying the rightful king, resulting in his death and the destruction of much of the army, then declaring himself regent for the adult queen, who needs no regent, then demanding the bannorn follow his command. He had no right or authority to do any of these things. His pathological fear and hatred of Orlesians and the possibility that they might re-occupy Ferelden results in the near destruction of the country he claims to love. He apparently believes he is the only one qualified to decide what is in Ferelden's best interest and poisons, murders, tortures and enslaves anyone who disagrees with him. That meets my definition of evil. Cailan was naive, but he died following Loghain's plan, and if Loghain had followed through instead of withdrawing at the crucial moment, it might have been successful. Of course, then it would have been a much shorter game, so Bravo Loghain!

To be honest, the civil war did not begin until Teagan and a few other of the Bannorn walked out of the meeting.  They left without any real proof of wrong doing on Loghain's part.  Yes, they had suspicions, but that was it.  At ths point, they are just as much to blame for the civil war as Loghain is.

Now, we do not know what exactly was all involved in Loghain declaring himself regent.  He might have asked for Anora's permission in doing so, or, and this is more likely since there is historical precedence, that a woman can not rule the country alone.  If the king dies then a regent is appointed until the queen remarries or until the heir, the child of the king and queen, or next in line, king's younger brother for example, are ready to assume the throne.

Loghain did start the Civil War. If the ruling body of your country dissapeared and the head general strode in and put himself in charge (whether or not he was connected to the dissapearence) in open defiance of  long established laws and procedures those who defied him would not be responsible for the conflict.

In Ferelden female rulers are accepted. If you are a human noble you can have a conversation with someone about whether you or you older brother will inherit the title. Doesnt change if your female. It is openly accepted that during Cailins reign Anora was the true power.

[druidofwarp]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

None of my characters have done half the crap you cite as evidence.

Seriously.

"You could kill a puppy dog, so how are you better than someone who drowns an entire litter?!"

Because I *didn't* do that crap and I *stopped* the man who was doing it.

hahaha I had a good laugh from that one, I agree theoretically having the potential to do evil doesn't mean you are evil

[skotie]

AntiChri5 wrote...

DariusKalera wrote...

LostScout wrote...

Loghain started the civil war by betraying the rightful king, resulting in his death and the destruction of much of the army, then declaring himself regent for the adult queen, who needs no regent, then demanding the bannorn follow his command. He had no right or authority to do any of these things. His pathological fear and hatred of Orlesians and the possibility that they might re-occupy Ferelden results in the near destruction of the country he claims to love. He apparently believes he is the only one qualified to decide what is in Ferelden's best interest and poisons, murders, tortures and enslaves anyone who disagrees with him. That meets my definition of evil. Cailan was naive, but he died following Loghain's plan, and if Loghain had followed through instead of withdrawing at the crucial moment, it might have been successful. Of course, then it would have been a much shorter game, so Bravo Loghain!

To be honest, the civil war did not begin until Teagan and a few other of the Bannorn walked out of the meeting.  They left without any real proof of wrong doing on Loghain's part.  Yes, they had suspicions, but that was it.  At ths point, they are just as much to blame for the civil war as Loghain is.

Now, we do not know what exactly was all involved in Loghain declaring himself regent.  He might have asked for Anora's permission in doing so, or, and this is more likely since there is historical precedence, that a woman can not rule the country alone.  If the king dies then a regent is appointed until the queen remarries or until the heir, the child of the king and queen, or next in line, king's younger brother for example, are ready to assume the throne.

Loghain did start the Civil War. If the ruling body of your country dissapeared and the head general strode in and put himself in charge (whether or not he was connected to the dissapearence) in open defiance of  long established laws and procedures those who defied him would not be responsible for the conflict.

In Ferelden female rulers are accepted. If you are a human noble you can have a conversation with someone about whether you or you older brother will inherit the title. Doesnt change if your female. It is openly accepted that during Cailins reign Anora was the true power.

This right here, the funny thing is what's Loghain's excuse for not dieing at the King's side? He just so happens to be the general of the King's army then everyones shocked a civil war starts when the general shows up without a scratch on him and says.

Loghain: "Good People of Fereldan! I bring you tragic news, it is with a heavy heart that I must say our King has fallen in battle."

Noble 1: "This is indeed tragic news, can you tell us of our Kings last moments? Surely as his general you were at his side in the battle. Did he die a heroic death?"

Loghain: "I was not at his side I'm afraid, I cannot tell you."

Noble 2: "But surely you we're in the battle, close enough to find him shortly after, did our army take heavy losses?"

Loghain "Actually they did not, I led them off the field to follow behind me, I could not allow our soilders to be sacrificed."

Noble 2: "Your not the king! Your his general, the one who leads the kings men in battle, how are you helping your country by leaving your king and countrymen to die!"

Loghain: "Well.... it seemed like a good plan at the time, the king did want to wait for the Orselians to help us in the battle, I thought they might try to turn against us and re-ensalve us midbattle. It could happen."

Noble 1: "......What!?!"

Loghain: "I suppose I made a mistake, my bad.... What's important now however is uniting Fereldan against the blight! Anora should be ruling but since I'm her father and I know best I will be taking over as regeant, I'm also a great general. We must also hunt down the traitors, the Grey Wardens, whom killed the king and have sided with the darkspawn."

Noble 1: "The Grey Wardens are only concerned with fighting darkspawn, no one besides them has ever killed an Arch Demon and as far as we know that is the only way to end a blight, centuries of history has proved this. Furthermore, darkspawn are all but mindless beasts, how could the Grey Wardens possibly be in league with the darkspawn even if they wanted to be?! Also didn't you just say you didn't know how the king died? If you seen him die you were there, so why didn't you help him!?"

Loghain: "Hmm, that's a good question, I wondered that myself. I suppose I'll have to get back to you on that..... Anyways we shouldn't be fighting amongst each other. A blight comes we must unite together against this darkness!"

Modifié par skotie, 20 décembre 2009 - 01:10 .

[Tirigon]

skotie wrote...
Loghain: "Good People of Fereldan! I bring you tragic news, it is with a heavy heart that I must say our King has fallen in battle."

Noble 1: "This is indeed tragic news, can you tell us of our Kings last moments? Surely as his general you were at his side in the battle. Did he die a heroic death?"

Loghain: "I was not at his side I'm afraid, I cannot tell you."

Noble 2: "But surely you we're in the battle, close enough to find him shortly after, did our army take heavy losses?"

Loghain "Actually they did not, I led them off the field to follow behind me, I could not allow our soilders to be sacrificed."

Noble 2: "Your not the king! Your his general, the one who leads the kings men in battle, how are you helping your country by leaving your king and countrymen to die!"

Loghain: "Well.... it seemed like a good plan at the time, the king did want to wait for the Orselians to help us in the battle, I thought they might try to turn against us and re-ensalve us midbattle. It could happen."

Noble 1: "......What!?!"

Loghain: "I suppose I made a mistake, my bad.... What's important now however is uniting Fereldan against the blight! Anora should be ruling but since I'm her father and I know best I will be taking over as regeant, I'm also a great general. We must also hunt down the traitors, the Grey Wardens, whom killed the king and have sided with the darkspawn."

Noble 1: "The Grey Wardens are only concerned with fighting darkspawn, no one besides them has ever killed an Arch Demon and as far as we know that is the only way to end a blight, centuries of history has proved this. Furthermore, darkspawn are all but mindless beasts, how could the Grey Wardens possibly be in league with the darkspawn even if they wanted to be?! Also didn't you just say you didn't know how the king died? If you seen him die you were there, so why didn't you help him!?"

Loghain: "Hmm, that's a good question, I wondered that myself. I suppose I'll have to get back to you on that..... Anyways we shouldn't be fighting amongst each other. A blight comes we must unite together against this darkness!"

Great! I really love this dialogue you just made up, shows what a great speaker Loghain is!