26 réponses à ce sujet

[bas273]

I'm not sure if a topic like this already exists, I couldn't find one.

Do you think stealth is over-powered?

My main character (Human Noble, Rogue, all Archery talents + Master Stealth) can easily take out enemies one-by-one:

#1 Order your party to wait
#2 Activate stealth and find a group of enemies with your Rogue
#3 Hit one of them with your bow
#4 Run back to your party
#5 Kill the enemy
#6 Rinse and repeat

At times, the A.I. is just really bad. Four Hurlocks are standing next to each other, I kill three of them and number four still doesn't attack me (as long as I'm not in range).

This method makes some battles extremely easy. For example: near the end of the game you've got to:
- Defend the Alienage
- Clear the Palace District of all enemies

The gate at the Alienage is attacked by over two dozen Darkspawn units, including Ogres and a General. I managed to take them out one-by-one by luring them away from the rest of the horde. After a while only the General was left and he proved no match.

The Palace District is full of enemies, probably more than 30 Darkspawn units. I ordered my team to wait at the entrance, climbed the stairs with my Rogue, used stealth and positioned her somewhere in a corner. I then killed all the 'normal' Darkspawn units (who die in one shot) and used stealth to escape. There were only three Ogres and a few Alphas left. I then lured them one-by-one to my party.

In my entire playthrough (Nightmare difficulty), there were only a few challenging battles. Even Flemeth the Shapeshifter, the Archdemon and the High Dragon were easy (use Alistair as your Main Tank and cast Force Field on him).

[JigPig]

No.

[humorguy]

It's a tactic. I wouldn't say overpowered. In some battles, because of circumstances, yes. But you could say the same for a Mage or Warrior in some battles.

[humorguy]

duplicate post

Modifié par humorguy, 19 décembre 2009 - 09:40 .

[Wardka]

There's a long thread about the phenomenon you're referring to already, but it's not really about stealth - it's about single-pulling with a bow, which can be done without stealth. It's obviously not intended behavior and a flaw in the AI, but since it's a single player game it's up to you if you want to take advantage of it or not. Me, I prefer to actually play the game.

[LaztRezort]

It's just one strategy, among many others. And, under some circumstances, it can fail you. For example, spiders, mages and archers can easily and quickly stun/disable your unstealthed rogue and clobber her to death before she gets back to the main party.

[Jo_]

There's plenty of overpowered/abusable things but that doesen't mean it needs a fix since it's a single player game. You set your own dificulty to a large extent.

[bas273]

Perhaps over-powered is not the right way to describe it.
But is it a tactic or an exploit? Normally enemies should be alerted when suddenly their General leaves with an arrow in his chest and never returns.

I don't see any talents that the Warrior can use to get such an advantage. The Mage can use Crushing Prison or Force Field (on your Main Tank) but this strategy allows you to take down almost every enemy in the game. Every boss can be seperated from his supporting army and taken down alone. Or you can first wipe out everyone around him.

I feel... regret that I've used this tactic so much. I think I'm going to create a Warrior and just play the game as you're supposed to: attack with your entire party and use talents and spells in a tactical way. Of course you choose your playing style but I think being a Warrior will be more fun .

Modifié par bas273, 19 décembre 2009 - 09:45 .

[Wardka]

It's an exploit in so far in that it's not how the developers intended the game to be played. But talking about exploiting in a single player game is not really useful, since the only one you have to answer to is yourself. You say you regret that you used it - and that's your answer right there.

[LaztRezort]

Have you tried this tactic on Hard or Nightmare?

[bas273]

@Wardka
Thanks I still enjoyed my playthrough but some battles could've been more challenging. That's why I'm starting a new game.

@LaztRezort

Nightmare difficulty

Modifié par bas273, 19 décembre 2009 - 09:51 .

[Jassper]

bas273 wrote...

I'm not sure if a topic like this already exists, I couldn't find one.

Do you think stealth is over-powered?

My main character (Human Noble, Rogue, all Archery talents + Master Stealth) can easily take out enemies one-by-one:

#1 Order your party to wait
#2 Activate stealth and find a group of enemies with your Rogue
#3 Hit one of them with your bow
#4 Run back to your party
#5 Kill the enemy
#6 Rinse and repeat

What does this have to do with stealth? You can do the same thing without it.

[T0paze]

Stealth is almost always overpowered in videogames, once you've mastered it.
That's because the AI in games is still too retarted to handle stealth properly. Maybe things will change for the better in the future.

That being said, you tactics has nothing to do with the real benefits of Stealth, just like the previous poster noted. It's called luring and is just another example of AI stupidity.

Modifié par T0paze, 19 décembre 2009 - 09:55 .

[Wardka]

I hope you'll enjoy your new playthrough then.



I personally really enjoy the feeling of having beaten a particularily difficult battle with decent tactics. The spell combinations are especially fun to use!

[LaztRezort]

bas273 wrote...

@LaztRezort

Nightmare difficulty

Touche.

[bas273]

@T0paze and Jassper

Many parts of the game are triggered. For example: in the Deep Roads, I tell my party to wait and proceed with my Rogue (stealth activated). Suddenly I'm ambushed and enemies come out from two rooms but they can't see me. I attack three of them with my bow and then rush back so the rest of my team can take them out.

What I'm trying to say: sometimes you need stealth and simply using your bow won't get you past a group of enemies. And by telling your team to wait (for example: in a small corridor or a location with tactical advantage) you can lure powerful enemies to your team.

Another example: in Denerim there's a quest where you need to take out three groups of Bandits. I always head up the stairs to the left and order my party to wait there. My rogue heads through the gate and triggers an ambush.

Without stealth, everyone would attack her. With stealth, the bandits just stand around looking dumb and she can lure one of them away from the others.

Modifié par bas273, 19 décembre 2009 - 10:06 .

[Jassper]

bas273 wrote...

@T0paze and Jassper

Many parts of the game are triggered. For example: in the Deep Roads, I tell my party to wait and proceed with my Rogue (stealth activated). Suddenly I'm ambushed and enemies come out from two rooms but they can't see me. I attack three of them with my bow and then rush back so the rest of my team can take them out.

What I'm trying to say: sometimes you need stealth and simply using your bow won't get you past a group of enemies. And by telling your team to wait (for example: in a small corridor or a location with tactical advantage) you can lure powerful enemies to your team.

Another example: in Denerim there's a quest where you need to take out three groups of Bandits. I always head up the stairs to the left and order my party to wait there. My rogue heads through the gate and triggers an ambush.

Without stealth, everyone would attack her. With stealth, the bandits just stand around looking dumb and she can lure one of them away from the others.

Right, as you stated these are triggered, so yes stealth helps in that encounter. When in Stealth, the PC should not trigger the ambush, this was probably over looked in the scripting. But the fact is you can "pull" individuals with or without stealth on "standard" encounters indicates that it is the AI that is lacking and not an issue of Stealth being over powered.

In either case, when you shoot a mob with an arrow the guy next to him should also come running - if not the entire room. So, stealth has nothing to do with it, but everything with the AI, and probably more of a "Perception Range" issue.

[Ambaryerno]

To specifically discuss Stealth itself, I think the fact that you--and enemies--can "stealth" in the middle of a fight successfully and vanish in of itself is an issue.



IMO, once an enemy is aggro'ed and has line of sight stealth should be disabled. This should work both ways. If you're staring RIGHT AT an enemy rogue, they shouldn't be able to stealth, either. However if you can move your rogue out of visual range, THEN you can use stealth again.



I think stealth worked this way in Baldur's Gate and the other Forgotten Realms games. I wonder why they changed it so stealth works in combat for DAO.

[Drunkencelt]

T0paze wrote...

Stealth is almost always overpowered in videogames, once you've mastered it.
That's because the AI in games is still too retarted to handle stealth properly. Maybe things will change for the better in the future.

That being said, you tactics has nothing to do with the real benefits of Stealth, just like the previous poster noted. It's called luring and is just another example of AI stupidity.

Stealth is pretty meh in DA:O , as it is in most games. Not one single game comes to mind where stealth is overpowered.

[Jassper]

Ambaryerno wrote...

To specifically discuss Stealth itself, I think the fact that you--and enemies--can "stealth" in the middle of a fight successfully and vanish in of itself is an issue.

IMO, once an enemy is aggro'ed and has line of sight stealth should be disabled. This should work both ways. If you're staring RIGHT AT an enemy rogue, they shouldn't be able to stealth, either. However if you can move your rogue out of visual range, THEN you can use stealth again.

I think stealth worked this way in Baldur's Gate and the other Forgotten Realms games. I wonder why they changed it so stealth works in combat for DAO.

I agree on this point, in combat the most you should hope to accoplish is loosing argo. However I have noticed when enemy mobs go stealth, my PC will continue to chase and attack them if that was my previous target.

[Lord Phoebus]

bas273 wrote...


This method makes some battles extremely easy. For example: near the end of the game you've got to:
- Defend the Alienage
- Clear the Palace District of all enemies

I dropped a Storm of Century on the group at the gates of the Alienage, I think I had to hex the general and drop a few more spells on him, but the battle was over in about 12 seconds, with not a single party member taking a point of damage.  I basically used glyphs and AOE to clear the palace, so as far as tactics goes its not really overpowered.

Combat stealth is a pretty strong ability, but with the long cooldown and high damage output of enemies it's not as strong as HiPS in NWN 1/2.  I think using grenades and setting traps while stealthed is more overpowered (since the engine doesn't use line of sight to calculate what should be stealthed and detection is rudimentary, if existant at all).    At the very least throwing a grenade should break stealth and you shouldn't be able to set a trap two inches away from the face of an enemy,

Pulling is what it is.  Technically it's exploiting the AI, but the AI doesn't play fair either.  It has significant advantages in numbers, hitpoints and stamina (I'm pretty sure some of the bosses either don't use stamina for their abilities or they have thousands of points).  It even gets some abilities earilier, like overwhelm for creatures vs. Dog.  This enemy inflation is how they balanced game to add a challenge while using a fairly slow AI.  If the AI coordinated attacks and  used spell combos on you, I could think of quite a few of random encounters and cutscene-that-leaves-you-in-an-open-position fights that would be complete party wipe before any characters got a chance to act.  They gave the game an aggro system and abilties like taunt, so Bioware is begging the player to exploit the AI.

[BroBear Berbil]

It's not really overpowered -- it's a pulling strat. You can even run your rogue out of stealth, draw enemies out, then stealth and pick them off ass they pat back. If it affects your fun then don't do it.



In the alienage you can just as easily lay down a Storm of the Century, Mana Clash/Crushing Prison the general and have everything dead by the time the ogre breaks down the gate. I wouldn't call picking off enemies with stealth overpowered when compared to that. lol

[tetracycloide]

Wardka wrote...

It's an exploit in so far in that it's not how the developers intended the game to be played.

Really?  Did a developer tell you this or are you a developer yourself?  As long as the AI allows it pulling will forever be a tactic just like casting AoE through a wall, setting traps under stealth, throwing bombs under stealth, tanking, positioning for a choke point, and retreating (I could go on).  Responding to how the AI behaves as appropriate is, by definition, a tactic.  The question of whether or not the AI was well programmed is an entirely separate issue.

Modifié par tetracycloide, 20 décembre 2009 - 01:04 .

[knownastherat]

Stealth ~ invisibility is always advantage by its nature as it was said. Overpowered? Define overpowered.



I think we can compare the advantages of invisibility in different games, but to proclaim something overpowered without comparison seems meaningless.



Dropping Bombs without being seen is very powerfull imo so is placing traps or disarming them, or disappearing when in LoS. I use it, it is fun, but if it is fair or not I would have to ask the Darkspawn

[bas273]

As I said before, perhaps over-powered is not the right way to describe it.

It just bothers me that I can walk past a group of Darkspawn, use Scattershot on them, kill as many Darkspawn as I can and then use stealth to disappear. Two Ogres and some Alphas are charging at me and suddenly they stop and stand there looking dumb.

Modifié par bas273, 20 décembre 2009 - 07:22 .