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[Those Protheans]

Lord Goose wrote...

Actually, nothing what Harbinger said contradicts Catalyst. As far as I remember, he even uttered the same: "We are your salvation through your destruction" in the finale of ME2.

“Your worlds will become our laboratories.”
Well, they turned worlds into freak concentration camps, where performed experiments on subjects to find out most suitable to turn into Reaper.

“We are your genetic destiny.”
The harvest is inevitable, all races would be gathered.

“You do not yet comprehend your place in things.”
Shepard has no idea about concept of "chaos" (i.e. conflict between organics and synthetics, nor he knows that Reapers are solution").


“We are the Harbinger of your perfection.”
Perfection - being turned into Reaper.

“We are the Harbinger of your ascendance.”
"We helped them ascend so they can make a place..."

“The experiments will continue, Shepard.”
They still need a human Reaper.

Actually, as you can see Sovereign contradicts Harbinger. Sovereign says that Reapers will extinguish everything, while Harbinger says that everything would ascend.

I don't think that implies what Sovereign meant at all.
If you look at the first quote you used it pointed a some kind of ascending if you view it the right way.

[Lord Goose]

Talk to Vigil. He'll tell you a whole different story. Anyways it's simply a retcon, since they needed somehow to hint to the brat's existence.

Vigil is not some kind of all-knowing infallible machine, as well. For example, he said that all indoctrinated Protheans were abandoned and died off. But as we know, their fate was different. Also, he has no real understanding why Reapers repeat the same pattern.

"The Reapers are alien, unknowable".

[Uncle Jo]

Lord Goose wrote...
*snip*
Actually, as you can see Sovereign contradicts Harbinger. Sovereign says that Reapers will extinguish everything, while Harbinger says that everything would ascend.

Try again with these ones.

“I am limitless. You are bacteria.”


“Take what is useful, destroy the rest.”


“Human; viable possibility, aggression factor useful if controlled.”


“Human; viable possibility, if emotional drives are subjugated.”


"Turian, you are considered too... primitive"


“Drells, useless, insufficient numbers.”


“Quarians: considered due to cybernetic augmentation, weakened immune system too debilitating.”


“Krogan: sterilised race, potential wasted.”


“Geth; an annoyance, limited utility.”
 
and so on...

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 29 juillet 2012 - 12:19 .

[Lord Goose]

“I am limitless. You are bacteria.”

Said by billion old-year living starship, made out of millions of living beings fused together to a single human being. It's not even insult. Rather it is probably mean of psychological warfare. 

“Take what is useful, destroy the rest.”

As we know Reapers are doing the same thing with people in their death camps. They find those who are ''good enough" to be raw materials for new Reapers and help them ''ascend", while the rest is simply killed/turned into husks.

“Human; viable possibility, aggression factor useful if controlled.”

As we know, Reapers usually make only 1 capital ship per cycle. If humanity is, indeed, best of species in this cycle, it would make sense why the most powerful Reaper of this harvest should be made out of them. Other races would probably made into Destroyers.

Modifié par Lord Goose, 29 juillet 2012 - 12:29 .

[tyrvas]

Uncle Jo wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...
*snip*
Actually, as you can see Sovereign contradicts Harbinger. Sovereign says that Reapers will extinguish everything, while Harbinger says that everything would ascend.

Try again with these ones.

“I am limitless. You are bacteria.”


“Take what is useful, destroy the rest.”


“Human; viable possibility, aggression factor useful if controlled.”


“Human; viable possibility, if emotional drives are subjugated.”


"Turian, you are considered too... primitive"


“Drells, useless, insufficient numbers.”


“Quarians: considered due to cybernetic augmentation, weakened immune system too debilitating.”


“Krogan: sterilised race, potential wasted.”


“Geth; an annoyance, limited utility.”
 
and so on...

Sounds to me that all he wants is a Human Reaper.
Rest of species are not good enough.

Modifié par tyrvas, 29 juillet 2012 - 12:27 .

[Lord Goose]

Talk to Vigil. He'll tell you a whole different story. Anyways it's simply a retcon, since they needed somehow to hint to the brat's existence.

Forgot to add. Facility on Ilos wend dark short after Reaper invaded. They probably didn't came into contact with those group of Protheans who tried to built the Crucible (and who created Vendetta), nor with those group who tried to hide on Eden Prime (Javik group). As far as we know, Protheans kept fighting for centuries even after loss of the Citadel, and what they tried experiments far worse than those which happened on the Sanctuary. So it would make sense for some of them developing different theories about Reapers and their existence.

[The Twilight God]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

So how can Catalyst explain words of his minions ?

He can't.

/thread

[iamweaver]

The Twilight God wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

So how can Catalyst explain words of his minions ?

He can't.

/thread

Of courseit can't.  there aren't dialogue options for it.

But we can.  It's not hard to match up most of the quotes with actual ME3 events.  Just look through this thread.

However cruddy the ending might be, the devs did a reasonable job of matching up ME3 dialogue with ME2 dialogue, and not a terrible job of matching up with Sovereign's dialogues as well.  When I replayed ME2, it was quite easy for me to hear Harbinger talking and match it up with what I knew was to come.

[Applepie_Svk]

maaaze wrote...

It all fits quite nicely.

The reapers them selfs are indoctrinated. They developed their own reasons for doing what they do.

They experiment to achieve synthesis.

The catalyst is only the man behind the curtain.

Soverign speaks of organics because he speaks with an organic.

and the whole yo dawg argument is repeatedly being defused. just accept that it is not representing what the catalyst said.

You already said that most of us are primitives which cannot comprehend the art, so again we primitives simply cannot see how can it fit into ME-series. Otherwise if you are speaking about experiments as indoctrination, turning people into husks than they always wanted to achieve mindwashing to their own image - wo ha ha synthesis ?!?!

And they are still failing after billion years that the outcomes are:
- they never want to achieve peace in some conflict synthetics vs organics, they simply never care
- they would never achieved their goals, because they always used same experiments on different species - etc. they had to always start again

Sovereign speak about organics only same as Harbinger, they have no place for synthetics - only mockery for their weakness.

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 29 juillet 2012 - 01:26 .

[RavenEyry]

Lord Goose wrote...

Talk to Vigil. He'll tell you a whole different story. Anyways it's simply a retcon, since they needed somehow to hint to the brat's existence.

Vigil is not some kind of all-knowing infallible machine, as well. For example, he said that all indoctrinated Protheans were abandoned and died off. But as we know, their fate was different. Also, he has no real understanding why Reapers repeat the same pattern.

"The Reapers are alien, unknowable".

Vendetta is not all-knowing either and the differences in the personality a dialogue indicates to me one of them has been tampered with. My money's on the one Kai Leng visited before you.

[XqctaX]

SVX wrote...

Drew Karpyshyn >>>>> Mac Walters and the rest of the current ME3 writing team.

That's why.

QFT

if they had any frikkin clue as to what they were doing they would have plugged the plotholes
but they didnt know what they were doing lol

[Uncle Jo]

Mind quoting the person you're addressing to? It would be nice. Thanks

Lord Goose wrote...

Said by billion old-year living starship, made out of millions of living beings fused together to a single human being. It's not even insult. Rather it is probably mean of psychological warfare. 

Not following there. It's still according to what Sovereign said and contradicting the "Is fire at war? theory".

As we know Reapers are doing the same thing with people in their death camps. They find those who are ''good enough" to be raw materials for new Reapers and help them ''ascend", while the rest is simply killed/turned into husks.

Who's good enough, who's not? I've never seen them making any difference. As they invaded Earth or any other world, they absolutely didn't discriminate and blasted everything or everyone that was in their way. 

Husks were made when cannon fodder was needed. No matter who they were.

"We help them ascend and preserve them" BS doesn't hold any water.

I don't see how turning random people into a goo has anything to do with preserving a civilization. I've never seen such a retarded modus operandi.

The cycle is about the Reapers reproduction, since they partly organics and just that. Organics are just "food". Nothing in-game shows the contrary.

As we know, Reapers usually make only 1 capital ship per cycle. If humanity is, indeed, best of species in this cycle, it would make sense why the most powerful Reaper of this harvest should be made out of them. Other races would probably made into Destroyers.

I was pointing out the "agressive factor". What in the world does have this anything to do with preserving or ascending?

Destroyers are relatively easy to blast and constantly on the first line. So if you're too primitive, sterilised, or somehow inadequate, you're bound to be killed first? If you're even worth to be made into a Destroyer? Wonderful.

Sending the Reapers to war, thus risking their destruction is also not a very good idea to preserve anything.

What of the Geth being an annoyance? The brat said that he wanted to preserve the synthetics too. It doesn't really match with Harbinger's statement. BTW have you ever heard of any synthetic race being "ascended"?

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 29 juillet 2012 - 01:45 .

[XqctaX]

Those Protheans wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

Actually, nothing what Harbinger said contradicts Catalyst. As far as I remember, he even uttered the same: "We are your salvation through your destruction" in the finale of ME2.

“Your worlds will become our laboratories.”
Well, they turned worlds into freak concentration camps, where performed experiments on subjects to find out most suitable to turn into Reaper.

“We are your genetic destiny.”
The harvest is inevitable, all races would be gathered.

“You do not yet comprehend your place in things.”
Shepard has no idea about concept of "chaos" (i.e. conflict between organics and synthetics, nor he knows that Reapers are solution").


“We are the Harbinger of your perfection.”
Perfection - being turned into Reaper.

“We are the Harbinger of your ascendance.”
"We helped them ascend so they can make a place..."

“The experiments will continue, Shepard.”
They still need a human Reaper.

Actually, as you can see Sovereign contradicts Harbinger. Sovereign says that Reapers will extinguish everything, while Harbinger says that everything would ascend.

I don't think that implies what Sovereign meant at all.
If you look at the first quote you used it pointed a some kind of ascending if you view it the right way.

during me2 the dark matter ending was on the table and thats why the things said by harbinger will fit with that. 

the mac thought he make his own ending when drew left :sick:

[Memnon]

Sovereign: We have no beginning; we have no end; we ... are infinite
Catalyst: My creators made these guys and I control them now
Sovereign: I hate that jerk ...

Modifié par Stornskar, 29 juillet 2012 - 02:11 .

[The Twilight God]

iamweaver wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

So how can Catalyst explain words of his minions ?

He can't.

/thread

Of courseit can't.  there aren't dialogue options for it.

But we can.  It's not hard to match up most of the quotes with actual ME3 events.  Just look through this thread.

However cruddy the ending might be, the devs did a reasonable job of matching up ME3 dialogue with ME2 dialogue, and not a terrible job of matching up with Sovereign's dialogues as well.  When I replayed ME2, it was quite easy for me to hear Harbinger talking and match it up with what I knew was to come.

You can handwave, but not reconcile Soveriegn's comments.

"There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you can't even imagine it"

"Life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident"

"Your extinction is inevitable"

"My kind transcends your very understanding"

"You cannot even grasp the nature of out existence"

"We have no beginning. We have no end. We are infinite"

"Millions of years after your civilization has been eradicated and forgotten we will endure"

This implies Reapers are "non-corpeal higher beings" and the dreadnaughts are just their "bodies", their link to physical reality. It also implies that they are not "preserving" us, but outright wiping us out entirely. The nature of indoctrination: people sharing memories, the way it affects rachni mind songs; all point to something supernatural in nature. Something not entirely physical.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 29 juillet 2012 - 02:28 .

[dreman9999]

Heres your problem.....The reaper don't kill of organics ...They preserve them.

Modifié par dreman9999, 29 juillet 2012 - 02:30 .

[Applepie_Svk]

dreman9999 wrote...

Heres your problem.....The reaper don't kill of organics ...They preserve them.

All colonists on Collector base would disagree, and highly doubt that organic mind would commit genocide upon the others with such a joy ...

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 29 juillet 2012 - 02:35 .

[dreman9999]

The Twilight God wrote...

iamweaver wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

So how can Catalyst explain words of his minions ?

He can't.

/thread

Of courseit can't.  there aren't dialogue options for it.

But we can.  It's not hard to match up most of the quotes with actual ME3 events.  Just look through this thread.

However cruddy the ending might be, the devs did a reasonable job of matching up ME3 dialogue with ME2 dialogue, and not a terrible job of matching up with Sovereign's dialogues as well.  When I replayed ME2, it was quite easy for me to hear Harbinger talking and match it up with what I knew was to come.

You can handwave, but not reconcile Soveriegn's comments.

"There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you can't even imagine it"

"Life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident"

"Your extinction is inevitable"

"My kind transcends your very understanding"

"You cannot even grasp the nature of out existence"

"We have no beginning. We have no end. We are infinite"

"Millions of years after your civilization has been eradicated and forgotten we will endure"

This implies Reapers are "non-corpeal higher beings" and the dreadnaughts are just their "bodies", their link to physical reality. It also implies that they are not "preserving" us, but outright wiping us out entirely. The nature of indoctrination: people sharing memories, the way it affects rachni mind songs; all point to something supernatural in nature. Something not entirely physical.

The converstion with  Legion in ME2 about the reapers counter that. Legion describes them as:
"One ship, one will , many minds. Like the geth."

He later states that the reapers are a collective of organic uploaded minds...
 

The reaper work via concensus like the geth. That's why sovergin is a nation.

[Thaa_solon]

The catalyst is simply a stupid contrived DEM which really has no place in the ME universe.

The reaper motives never needed an eplanation told to us by some retarded spaceghost AI kid

As I said before, the reapers never ever needed leadership but somewhere as the story progressed(pulled out of arse) which lead to (my and alot of other people)the conclusion:

ME was not planned properly and therefore BW suffers the consequences.


The reaper story should have been shrouded in "It is beyond your comprehension" not in "It was my solution".

If one really analyze the catalysts problem with synthetics against organics, then the problem really never existed and thus is just plain stupid.




Enjoy

[dreman9999]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Heres your problem.....The reaper don't kill of organics ...They preserve them.

All colonists on Collector base would disagree...

The beings (the geth) that comunicated with the reapers and understand the reasoning of the reapers would say other wise.

Are you really say Legion is Lieing?
He well comferms this.
 

Added in synthesis it's also comfermed as well.
The state of life the collonist had were changed.

[dreman9999]

Thaa_solon wrote...

The catalyst is simply a stupid contrived DEM which really has no place in the ME universe.

The reaper motives never needed an eplanation told to us by some retarded spaceghost AI kid

As I said before, the reapers never ever needed leadership but somewhere as the story progressed(pulled out of arse) which lead to (my and alot of other people)the conclusion:

ME was not planned properly and therefore BW suffers the consequences.


The reaper story should have been shrouded in "It is beyond your comprehension" not in "It was my solution".

If one really analyze the catalysts problem with synthetics against organics, then the problem really never existed and thus is just plain stupid.




Enjoy

The catalyst is not a dem. He solves nothing. And trust me, ifthe reaper were not explined we would have a massive bored of people complining about it.

[Applepie_Svk]

dreman9999 wrote...
The beings (the geth) that comunicated with the reapers and understand the reasoning of the reapers would say other wise.

Are you really say Legion is Lieing?
He well comferms this.
 

Added in synthesis it's also comfermed as well.
The state of life the collonist had were changed.

No I am saying that whatever they were before they are no longer themselves, none with conscience would commit genocide upon the others despite how right they would.
Still Legion explanation of organic minds is irrelevant because Catalyst is controling the Reapers...

It´s either Catalyst never exist or Reapers are pretty messed up toys.

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 29 juillet 2012 - 02:45 .

[Thaa_solon]

dreman9999 wrote...

Thaa_solon wrote...



Enjoy

The catalyst is not a dem. He solves nothing. And trust me, ifthe reaper were not explined we would have a massive bored of people complining about it.

The catalyst is the second DEM to solve the first DEM, the crusible.

Now consider this:

A: A race of machines killing everyone every 50k years, stripping planets bare of technology and resorces for some reason, perhaps to counter the effects of darkmatter or for procreation or both(we don't know).



B: A fleet of programmed organosynths following the orders of a seemingly retarded AI which takes the form of a kid, who when all is coming to and end asks of shepard to kill him or take his place because the "solution" does not work, when shepard rejects the stupid choices then all of a sudden the "solution" works again?

so be it

Which one do you prefer?

[Memnon]

dreman9999 wrote...

Thaa_solon wrote...

The catalyst is simply a stupid contrived DEM which really has no place in the ME universe.

The reaper motives never needed an eplanation told to us by some retarded spaceghost AI kid

As I said before, the reapers never ever needed leadership but somewhere as the story progressed(pulled out of arse) which lead to (my and alot of other people)the conclusion:

ME was not planned properly and therefore BW suffers the consequences.


The reaper story should have been shrouded in "It is beyond your comprehension" not in "It was my solution".

If one really analyze the catalysts problem with synthetics against organics, then the problem really never existed and thus is just plain stupid.




Enjoy

The catalyst is not a dem. He solves nothing. And trust me, ifthe reaper were not explined we would have a massive bored of people complining about it.

What are you talking about he solves nothing - pre EC he was almost a literal DEM (BW tweeted that he was believed to be a 'being of light') who gives us the three choices which stop the Reaper threat. Post EC he was just another AI that went HAL on us ...

[dreman9999]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

maaaze wrote...

It all fits quite nicely.

The reapers them selfs are indoctrinated. They developed their own reasons for doing what they do.

They experiment to achieve synthesis.

The catalyst is only the man behind the curtain.

Soverign speaks of organics because he speaks with an organic.

and the whole yo dawg argument is repeatedly being defused. just accept that it is not representing what the catalyst said.

You already said that most of us are primitives which cannot comprehend the art, so again we primitives simply cannot see how can it fit into ME-series. Otherwise if you are speaking about experiments as indoctrination, turning people into husks than they always wanted to achieve mindwashing to their own image - wo ha ha synthesis ?!?!

And they are still failing after billion years that the outcomes are:
- they never want to achieve peace in some conflict synthetics vs organics, they simply never care
- they would never achieved their goals, because they always used same experiments on different species - etc. they had to always start again

Sovereign speak about organics only same as Harbinger, they have no place for synthetics - only mockery for their weakness.

1. You clearly don't understand...So he was right.
2.And this state make it clear you don't understand. The only reason why they are doing this is because their programing are forcing them to. The catalyst himself calls himself and the reapers tools.
Machines think in absoults if they can't change their programing. Understand this. If you make a robot but tell it to get to the other side of a wall, how it does it is based on the level of logic it has. The command to get to the other side of the wall does not limit what the robot does to get to the other side. All that maters to it is that it gets to the other side, it has no moral basis to how it solves the problem give to it.
Thats the same concept as the catalyst. He has no moral to limit him, he only thing of solving the problem given to him.
3.Harbinger states that the reaper want to up lift orgnics. They see organics as flawed and want to imporove them. Which is what the salution the catalyst is doing.