167 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

Stornskar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Thaa_solon wrote...

The catalyst is simply a stupid contrived DEM which really has no place in the ME universe.

The reaper motives never needed an eplanation told to us by some retarded spaceghost AI kid

As I said before, the reapers never ever needed leadership but somewhere as the story progressed(pulled out of arse) which lead to (my and alot of other people)the conclusion:

ME was not planned properly and therefore BW suffers the consequences.


The reaper story should have been shrouded in "It is beyond your comprehension" not in "It was my solution".

If one really analyze the catalysts problem with synthetics against organics, then the problem really never existed and thus is just plain stupid.




Enjoy

The catalyst is not a dem. He solves nothing. And trust me, ifthe reaper were not explined we would have a massive bored of people complining about it.

What are you talking about he solves nothing - pre EC he was almost a literal DEM (BW tweeted that he was believed to be a 'being of light') who gives us the three choices which stop the Reaper threat. Post EC he was just another AI that went HAL on us ...

So what.? That was pre-ec. Now it's post-ec. He is not a dem anymore post-ec.

[dreman9999]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
The beings (the geth) that comunicated with the reapers and understand the reasoning of the reapers would say other wise.

Are you really say Legion is Lieing?
He well comferms this.
 

Added in synthesis it's also comfermed as well.
The state of life the collonist had were changed.

No I am saying that whatever they were before they are no longer themselves, none with conscience would commit genocide upon the others despite how right they would.
Still Legion explanation of organic minds is irrelevant because Catalyst is controling the Reapers...

It´s either Catalyst never exist or Reapers are pretty messed up toys.

The catalyst is the reapers. He is what  the reapers are if they all join to one will.
He is the collective intelligent of the reapers .
AKA"One ship, one will, many minds."

[dreman9999]

Thaa_solon wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Thaa_solon wrote...



Enjoy

The catalyst is not a dem. He solves nothing. And trust me, ifthe reaper were not explined we would have a massive bored of people complining about it.

The catalyst is the second DEM to solve the first DEM, the crusible.

Now consider this:

A: A race of machines killing everyone every 50k years, stripping planets bare of technology and resorces for some reason, perhaps to counter the effects of darkmatter or for procreation or both(we don't know).



B: A fleet of programmed organosynths following the orders of a seemingly retarded AI which takes the form of a kid, who when all is coming to and end asks of shepard to kill him or take his place because the "solution" does not work, when shepard rejects the stupid choices then all of a sudden the "solution" works again?

so be it

Which one do you prefer?

The catalyst is not a dem because he solves nothing , addes more problems to the problem in hand and has no control over the crucible.
The crucible is not a dem because it has to be build, and it was hinted at in LOTSB.

[Applepie_Svk]

dreman9999 wrote...
The catalyst is not a dem because he solves nothing , addes more problems to the problem in hand and has no control over the crucible.
The crucible is not a dem because it has to be build, and it was hinted at in LOTSB.

You said it in different topic, and it wans´t hinted in LOTSB - it was just a speculation created by character - what might be... SB could found anything even planet filled with prothean toilet paper.

[Lord Goose]

Vendetta is not all-knowing either and the differences in the personality a dialogue indicates to me one of them has been tampered with.

Where is nothing implausible with Vendetta knowing more about the Reapers than Vigil. Vigil was on Ilos the whole time, and Ilos never suffered Reapers invasion, so it was passive observer at very best. Vendetta was built by Protheans who obtained Crucible schematics and were trying to build it. These Protheans were fighting against the Reapers for centuries, so they should have more information about them.

Uncle Jo wrote...

Not following there. It's still according to what Sovereign said and contradicting the "Is fire at war? theory".

"Reapers are not intrested in war" does not contradict "Reapers consider organic life to be inferior than them". It could be even argued that Reapers had to make harvest BECAUSE organic life is inferior, and will build synthetics to compensate their inferiority. Also, it could be aspect of psychological warfare, which would make harvest easier.

Uncle Jo wrote...

Who's good enough, who's not? I've never seen them making any difference. As they invaded Earth or any other world, they absolutely didn't discriminate and blasted everything or everyone that was in their way.

From Codex. Harvesting entry.

Even with all the Reapers' power, harvesting every sapient species in an entire galaxy can take decades or even centuries. The most time-consuming part of the process is gathering DNA from the population. To accelerate the effort, the Reapers follow a consistent procedure.
Victims who cooperate, surrender, or are captured by husks are sorted into camps. It is believed the husks possess receptors that allow them to analyze a victim's DNA through sight, smell, or touch. Victims that meet their standards are herded from the camps into processor ships. Those the husks deem insufficient are either turned into husks themselves or indoctrinated to serve as slave labor. The Reapers use this last option to give their victims false hope -- many captives who would otherwise fight back become docile when they see members of their own kind obey and survive.

Uncle Jo wrote...

I don't see how turning random people into a goo has anything to do with preserving a civilization. I've never seen such a retarded modus operandi.

Well, Reapers also constantly tell you that "puny human brain" is incapable of understanding their work. I think that their ideas of "preservation" is completely different from that normal person would think about.

The closest analogy I am capable of making is thinking about Reapers as twisted reservation areas.

On one hand people are killing animals and destroy their natural habitat, but on the other hand people made some areas where some members of species can survive, and that considered to be enough.

In case of Reapers, they believe that civilization is preserved, when its members were reduced to DNA and fused with their creations in a twisted immortal machine.

Uncle Jo wrote...

The cycle is about the Reapers reproduction, since they partly organics and just that. Organics are just "food". Nothing in-game shows the contrary.

The line about "salvation through destruction" is still uttered by Harbinger at the end of ME2. I admit, that your interpretation makes more sense in context of Sovereign speech, but this line is contradictory.

Unce Jo wrote...

I was pointing out the "agressive factor". What in the world does have this anything to do with preserving or ascending?

Reapers main goal is to prevent "chaos" (inevitable conflict between organics and synthetics). The only way to prevent they have found so far (in their opinion) is to harvest advanced civilizations. In order to harvest them Reapers must be stronger. So they turn only the "best" species into strongest Reapers, while others are made into Destroyes.

Probably it has something to do with resources. I'm pretty sure that building capital ships is much harder than destroyer, and it would require much more people.

Sending the Reapers to war, thus risking their destruction is also not a very good idea to preserve anything.

As far as we know, Reapers normally do not sustain losses. Their plan is efficient. First of all, they take Citadel and behead the chain of command. Secondly, they turn off Mass Relays and, thus, communication is broken. So normally they only have to face isolated pockets of resistance of much inferior beings.

In Shepard's cycle Relays remained intact, as did the Citadel. And, to boot, fleets were armed with Thanix cannons, reversed from Sovereign's main gun.

Also, you should remember, that Reapers are not trying to "save" everybody. They are only trying to "save" as much as possible. So they should be willing to accept casualities.

Uncle Jo wrote...

What of geth being annoyance?

That only means that they of all races have the least priority to be made into capital ship, probably. 

Modifié par Lord Goose, 29 juillet 2012 - 03:17 .

[dreman9999]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
The catalyst is not a dem because he solves nothing , addes more problems to the problem in hand and has no control over the crucible.
The crucible is not a dem because it has to be build, and it was hinted at in LOTSB.

You said it in different topic, and it wans´t hinted in LOTSB - it was just a speculation created by character - what might be... SB could found anything even planet filled with prothean toilet paper.

That is still a hint. The sb looked into it first. Liara after lotsb found that he was and finished his work. What the sb first started lead to the crucible. That still is a hint and foreshadowing. tHAT STILL MEANS IT WAS HINTED AT BEFORE me3.
As long as what every the sb first looked into lead to the crucible, the crucible will remain not a dem. It matters not if it could of lead to something different. It did not and lead to the crucible.

Modifié par dreman9999, 29 juillet 2012 - 03:16 .

[Jassu1979]

Dendio1 wrote...

They were less polite, but basically they were alluding to the same thing star kid was.

No. It is pretty clear that the Star Child and its rationale were made up on the fly, and not originally intended.

[tyrvas]

Lord Goose wrote...

Vendetta is not all-knowing either and the differences in the personality a dialogue indicates to me one of them has been tampered with.

Where is nothing implausible with Vendetta knowing more about the Reapers than Vigil. Vigil was on Ilos the whole time, and Ilos never suffered Reapers invasion, so it was passive observer at very best. Vendetta was built by Protheans who obtained Crucible schematics and were trying to build it. These Protheans were fighting against the Reapers for centuries, so they should have more information about them.

Uncle Jo wrote...

Not following there. It's still according to what Sovereign said and contradicting the "Is fire at war? theory".

"Reapers are not intrested in war" does not contradict "Reapers consider organic life to be inferior than them". It could be even argued that Reapers had to make harvest BECAUSE organic life is inferior, and will build synthetics to compensate their inferiority. Also, it could be aspect of psychological warfare, which would make harvest easier.

Uncle Jo wrote...

Who's good enough, who's not? I've never seen them making any difference. As they invaded Earth or any other world, they absolutely didn't discriminate and blasted everything or everyone that was in their way.

From Codex. Harvesting entry.

Even with all the Reapers' power, harvesting every sapient species in an entire galaxy can take decades or even centuries. The most time-consuming part of the process is gathering DNA from the population. To accelerate the effort, the Reapers follow a consistent procedure.
Victims who cooperate, surrender, or are captured by husks are sorted into camps. It is believed the husks possess receptors that allow them to analyze a victim's DNA through sight, smell, or touch. Victims that meet their standards are herded from the camps into processor ships. Those the husks deem insufficient are either turned into husks themselves or indoctrinated to serve as slave labor. The Reapers use this last option to give their victims false hope -- many captives who would otherwise fight back become docile when they see members of their own kind obey and survive.

Uncle Jo wrote...

I don't see how turning random people into a goo has anything to do with preserving a civilization. I've never seen such a retarded modus operandi.

Well, Reapers also constantly tell you that "puny human brain" is incapable of understanding their work. I think that their ideas of "preservation" is completely different from that normal person would think about.

The closest analogy I am capable of making is thinking about Reapers as twisted reservation areas.

On one hand people are killing animals and destroy their natural habitat, but on the other hand people made some areas where some members of species can survive, and that considered to be enough.

In case of Reapers, they believe that civilization is preserved, when its members were reduced to DNA and fused with their creations in a twisted immortal machine.

Uncle Jo wrote...

The cycle is about the Reapers reproduction, since they partly organics and just that. Organics are just "food". Nothing in-game shows the contrary.

The line about "salvation through destruction" is still uttered by Harbinger at the end of ME2. I admit, that your interpretation makes more sense in context of Sovereign speech, but this line is contradictory.

Unce Jo wrote...

I was pointing out the "agressive factor". What in the world does have this anything to do with preserving or ascending?

Reapers main goal is to prevent "chaos" (inevitable conflict between organics and synthetics). The only way to prevent they have found so far (in their opinion) is to harvest advanced civilizations. In order to harvest them Reapers must be stronger. So they turn only the "best" species into strongest Reapers, while others are made into Destroyes.

Probably it has something to do with resources. I'm pretty sure that building capital ships is much harder than destroyer, and it would require much more people.

Sending the Reapers to war, thus risking their destruction is also not a very good idea to preserve anything.

As far as we know, Reapers normally do not sustain losses. Their plan is efficient. First of all, they take Citadel and behead the chain of command. Secondly, they turn off Mass Relays and, thus, communication is broken. So normally they only have to face isolated pockets of resistance of much inferior beings.

In Shepard's cycle Relays remained intact, as did the Citadel. And, to boot, fleets were armed with Thanix cannons, reversed from Sovereign's main gun.

Also, you should remember, that Reapers are not trying to "save" everybody. They are only trying to "save" as much as possible.

Uncle Jo wrote...

What of geth being annoyance?

That only means that they of all races have the least priority to be made into capital ship, probably. 

I totally agree with what Lord Goose has said.  .

[dreman9999]

Jassu1979 wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

They were less polite, but basically they were alluding to the same thing star kid was.

No. It is pretty clear that the Star Child and its rationale were made up on the fly, and not originally intended.

The starchild makes it clear that it idealiolgy came form his creators . It did not just make it up.

[Applepie_Svk]

dreman9999 wrote...
The starchild makes it clear that it idealiolgy came form his creators . It did not just make it up.

His creators want from him to find a peace solution and not resseting civilizations each 50k years, it´s not solving anything
it´s avoiding to core of problem.

[Thaa_solon]

I don't agree with Lord Goose on the matter of sending reapers to war.

If a civilisation needs to get advenced to a point deemed by reapers to be okay, then that civilisation always have the adequat firepower to kill/destroy/cripple reaper capitol ships.
And as above stated only a few species can be acended each cycle.

At some point the reapers have lost all of their capitol ships and are easily destroyed, this is stupid.

Reapers will allways suffer losses in each cycle

What happens if there are no species worthy of acendence in a cycle, and yet they have sufferd losses.

Great masterplan by the catalyst or simply retarded

You decide

[tyrvas]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
The starchild makes it clear that it idealiolgy came form his creators . It did not just make it up.

His creators want from him to find a peace solution and not resseting civilizations each 50k years, it´s not solving anything
it´s avoiding to core of problem.

We already know that, even the Catalyst knows that, it's solution ends up being flawed. It says so.

Modifié par tyrvas, 29 juillet 2012 - 04:03 .

[Clayless]

RavenEyry wrote...

It's the primary reason I think the catalyst is trying to mislead you, his speech is basically the complete opposite of Sovereigns. One of them must be lying and I think the catalyst has more reason too.

Oh my god.

I just don't understand people.

[Taboo]

Here's an idea. The Reapers aren't aware of his presence because Harbinger was programmed with a singular purpose. He truly believes he is infinite and has purpose.

And the Catalyst merely watches them.

[dreman9999]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
The starchild makes it clear that it idealiolgy came form his creators . It did not just make it up.

His creators want from him to find a peace solution and not resseting civilizations each 50k years, it´s not solving anything
it´s avoiding to core of problem.

Let me expline how a machine thinks..
Let's say you build a robot. And you tell it to get to the other side of  really highwall, not giving how to do it or what limitation it has.. 'The robot will get to the other side of said wall but will employ differnt ways to do it. To the robot how it gets to the other side of the wall is unimportant. Just as long as it gets to the other side of the wall that is important. Finding a salution to the problem given  is more important what salution its using. A machine has no moral bases out side doing it's programing.

When the catalyst creators gave the catalyst the problem of organic/synthetic relations to solve. They make had had limits in the system to stop the catalyst from killing off all organics but they didn't have anything stopping the catalyst from think perserving organic is a solution.

Let's go back to the robot ordered to get to the other side of a wall example. Let's say I told the robo to get to the other side of the wall but expected it to climb over. Now, I never stated that it had to but I assumed that it would. Instead, it digs a  tuunel under the wall. It a salution to the problem I gave it but it's not one I imagined it doing or many even wanted. I gave it no limit to not dig under the wall so nothing is stopping it from doing so.

That's the same concept as the catalyst. It's creator never suspected that it would think to perseve orgaincs as reapers as a salution given.
The catalyst does not care what the moral implination are to it's salutions, it has no morals. All it thinks to do is to solve the problem given to it. That's how machines that can't change it's programing think.

Modifié par dreman9999, 29 juillet 2012 - 04:16 .

[tyrvas]

Thaa_solon wrote...

I don't agree with Lord Goose on the matter of sending reapers to war.

If a civilisation needs to get advenced to a point deemed by reapers to be okay, then that civilisation always have the adequat firepower to kill/destroy/cripple reaper capitol ships.
And as above stated only a few species can be acended each cycle.

At some point the reapers have lost all of their capitol ships and are easily destroyed, this is stupid.

Reapers will allways suffer losses in each cycle

What happens if there are no species worthy of acendence in a cycle, and yet they have sufferd losses.

Great masterplan by the catalyst or simply retarded

You decide

Reapers may suffer losses in every cycle, but i doubt as many as in Shep's cycle.
Again remember the original plan of how the reaper cycle would start.
The cycle had never been broken before in this way.

Also the Prothean cycle did not get a Reaper, what remained of their species ended up as Collectors.
Who knows what the Keepers had been before.

Modifié par tyrvas, 29 juillet 2012 - 04:11 .

[The Twilight God]

dreman9999 wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

iamweaver wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

So how can Catalyst explain words of his minions ?

He can't.

/thread

Of courseit can't.  there aren't dialogue options for it.

But we can.  It's not hard to match up most of the quotes with actual ME3 events.  Just look through this thread.

However cruddy the ending might be, the devs did a reasonable job of matching up ME3 dialogue with ME2 dialogue, and not a terrible job of matching up with Sovereign's dialogues as well.  When I replayed ME2, it was quite easy for me to hear Harbinger talking and match it up with what I knew was to come.

You can handwave, but not reconcile Soveriegn's comments.

"There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you can't even imagine it"

"Life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident"

"Your extinction is inevitable"

"My kind transcends your very understanding"

"You cannot even grasp the nature of out existence"

"We have no beginning. We have no end. We are infinite"

"Millions of years after your civilization has been eradicated and forgotten we will endure"

This implies Reapers are "non-corpeal higher beings" and the dreadnaughts are just their "bodies", their link to physical reality. It also implies that they are not "preserving" us, but outright wiping us out entirely. The nature of indoctrination: people sharing memories, the way it affects rachni mind songs; all point to something supernatural in nature. Something not entirely physical.

The converstion with  Legion in ME2 about the reapers counter that. Legion describes them as:
"One ship, one will , many minds. Like the geth."

He later states that the reapers are a collective of organic uploaded minds...
 

The reaper work via concensus like the geth. That's why sovergin is a nation.

No, Legion CONTRADICTS soveriegn. He does not counter him.

That is the problem. There is a contradiction; a lack of consistency.

You really think Kelly, Ken, Gabby, Dr. Chakwas etc.minds would go about killing everyone like the reapers do? Clearly the reapers cannot contain the minds of organics as there would be chaos within each dreadnaught as everyone would be bickering abut what to do. The idea that goo is anything more than goo is absurd. Reapers may have similes of a organic minds, but they are inorganic by virtue of it being a machine.  

The whole plot unravels at the end, When soverign was destroyed or any reaper during the war... how was that preserving their species? It would make more since to "preserve" them pre-spaceflight so that no reapers are ever lost. Every dead reaper is a failure.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 29 juillet 2012 - 04:14 .

[dreman9999]

Thaa_solon wrote...

I don't agree with Lord Goose on the matter of sending reapers to war.

If a civilisation needs to get advenced to a point deemed by reapers to be okay, then that civilisation always have the adequat firepower to kill/destroy/cripple reaper capitol ships.
And as above stated only a few species can be acended each cycle.

At some point the reapers have lost all of their capitol ships and are easily destroyed, this is stupid.

Reapers will allways suffer losses in each cycle

What happens if there are no species worthy of acendence in a cycle, and yet they have sufferd losses.

Great masterplan by the catalyst or simply retarded

You decide

The reapers never use direct attacks as a first attempt. They use husk forces, indoctination , and traps. They debilitate the civilisation they are going afterfirst before attacking. They remove the teeth first before attacking normally.

[dreman9999]

The Twilight God wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

iamweaver wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

So how can Catalyst explain words of his minions ?

He can't.

/thread

Of courseit can't.  there aren't dialogue options for it.

But we can.  It's not hard to match up most of the quotes with actual ME3 events.  Just look through this thread.

However cruddy the ending might be, the devs did a reasonable job of matching up ME3 dialogue with ME2 dialogue, and not a terrible job of matching up with Sovereign's dialogues as well.  When I replayed ME2, it was quite easy for me to hear Harbinger talking and match it up with what I knew was to come.

You can handwave, but not reconcile Soveriegn's comments.

"There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you can't even imagine it"

"Life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident"

"Your extinction is inevitable"

"My kind transcends your very understanding"

"You cannot even grasp the nature of out existence"

"We have no beginning. We have no end. We are infinite"

"Millions of years after your civilization has been eradicated and forgotten we will endure"

This implies Reapers are "non-corpeal higher beings" and the dreadnaughts are just their "bodies", their link to physical reality. It also implies that they are not "preserving" us, but outright wiping us out entirely. The nature of indoctrination: people sharing memories, the way it affects rachni mind songs; all point to something supernatural in nature. Something not entirely physical.

The converstion with  Legion in ME2 about the reapers counter that. Legion describes them as:
"One ship, one will , many minds. Like the geth."

He later states that the reapers are a collective of organic uploaded minds...
 

The reaper work via concensus like the geth. That's why sovergin is a nation.

No, Legion CONTRADICTS soveriegn. He does not counter him.

That is the problem. There is a contradiction; a lack of consistency.

You really think Kelly, Ken, Gabby, Dr. Chakwas etc.minds would go about killing everyone like the reapers do? Clearly the reapers cannot contain the minds of organics as there would be chaos within each dreadnaught as everyone would be bickering abut what to do. The idea that goo is anything more than goo is absurd. Reapers may have similes of a organic minds, but they are inorganic by virtue of it being a machine.  

That's not a contaradiction. That an exapliation to what sovergin ment. Remeber, the sovergin states that the reapers are each a nation. Being a collective of mind working as one will would be that.

[tyrvas]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Here's an idea. The Reapers aren't aware of his presence because Harbinger was programmed with a singular purpose. He truly believes he is infinite and has purpose.

And the Catalyst merely watches them.

Yes. The Catalyst oversees his solution.
He has been doing so for ???????????? years.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Harbinger:

“You do not yet comprehend your place in things.”

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don´t see how it can fit into Catalyst´s words: Ya dawg I created synthetics to kill organics to prevent create own synthetics which would killed all organic life...

Harbinger was right. People simply don't get it, even after it being told to them.

[Clayless]

Just to mention, all species can make Destoyers.

[Thaa_solon]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Here's an idea. The Reapers aren't aware of his presence because Harbinger was programmed with a singular purpose. He truly believes he is infinite and has purpose.

And the Catalyst merely watches them.

Good idea

However.....the catalyst is the collective mind of the reapers thus they are aware of it's existence, you know when they all need to put their minds together.

I still think the catalyst is stupid and whoever came up with the concept should be thrown in a river, not to die but to get wet and understand where he/she did wrong.

[The Twilight God]

dreman9999 wrote...

Thaa_solon wrote...

I don't agree with Lord Goose on the matter of sending reapers to war.

If a civilisation needs to get advenced to a point deemed by reapers to be okay, then that civilisation always have the adequat firepower to kill/destroy/cripple reaper capitol ships.
And as above stated only a few species can be acended each cycle.

At some point the reapers have lost all of their capitol ships and are easily destroyed, this is stupid.

Reapers will allways suffer losses in each cycle

What happens if there are no species worthy of acendence in a cycle, and yet they have sufferd losses.

Great masterplan by the catalyst or simply retarded

You decide

The reapers never use direct attacks as a first attempt. They use husk forces, indoctination , and traps. They debilitate the civilisation they are going afterfirst before attacking. They remove the teeth first before attacking normally.

Yeah, they do. They normally pour out of the Citadel Relay, take control of the relay network and attack directly.

Soveriegn's tactics were a special case because he couldn't activate the relay.

[Clayless]

Thaa_solon wrote...

Good idea

However.....the catalyst is the collective mind of the reapers thus they are aware of it's existence, you know when they all need to put their minds together.

I still think the catalyst is stupid and whoever came up with the concept should be thrown in a river, not to die but to get wet and understand where he/she did wrong.

That or they don't because he acts like a subconcious, to give an organic analogy.