167 réponses à ce sujet

[Taboo]

Thaa_solon wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Here's an idea. The Reapers aren't aware of his presence because Harbinger was programmed with a singular purpose. He truly believes he is infinite and has purpose.

And the Catalyst merely watches them.

Good idea

However.....the catalyst is the collective mind of the reapers thus they are aware of it's existence, you know when they all need to put their minds together.

I still think the catalyst is stupid and whoever came up with the concept should be thrown in a river, not to die but to get wet and understand where he/she did wrong.

He is a collection of them, but that doesn't men they are aware of his existence. They are machines remember? If they are programmed to not be aware of his existence, they won't know about it.

Harbinger is clearly unaware of this, at least it appears that way. The Reapers he would create each cycle would also be unaware.

[The Twilight God]

dreman9999 wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

iamweaver wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

So how can Catalyst explain words of his minions ?

He can't.

/thread

Of courseit can't.  there aren't dialogue options for it.

But we can.  It's not hard to match up most of the quotes with actual ME3 events.  Just look through this thread.

However cruddy the ending might be, the devs did a reasonable job of matching up ME3 dialogue with ME2 dialogue, and not a terrible job of matching up with Sovereign's dialogues as well.  When I replayed ME2, it was quite easy for me to hear Harbinger talking and match it up with what I knew was to come.

You can handwave, but not reconcile Soveriegn's comments.

"There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you can't even imagine it"

"Life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident"

"Your extinction is inevitable"

"My kind transcends your very understanding"

"You cannot even grasp the nature of out existence"

"We have no beginning. We have no end. We are infinite"

"Millions of years after your civilization has been eradicated and forgotten we will endure"

This implies Reapers are "non-corpeal higher beings" and the dreadnaughts are just their "bodies", their link to physical reality. It also implies that they are not "preserving" us, but outright wiping us out entirely. The nature of indoctrination: people sharing memories, the way it affects rachni mind songs; all point to something supernatural in nature. Something not entirely physical.

The converstion with  Legion in ME2 about the reapers counter that. Legion describes them as:
"One ship, one will , many minds. Like the geth."

He later states that the reapers are a collective of organic uploaded minds...
 

The reaper work via concensus like the geth. That's why sovergin is a nation.

No, Legion CONTRADICTS soveriegn. He does not counter him.

That is the problem. There is a contradiction; a lack of consistency.

You really think Kelly, Ken, Gabby, Dr. Chakwas etc.minds would go about killing everyone like the reapers do? Clearly the reapers cannot contain the minds of organics as there would be chaos within each dreadnaught as everyone would be bickering abut what to do. The idea that goo is anything more than goo is absurd. Reapers may have similes of a organic minds, but they are inorganic by virtue of it being a machine.  

That's not a contaradiction. That an exapliation to what sovergin ment. Remeber, the sovergin states that the reapers are each a nation. Being a collective of mind working as one will would be that.

Let's do this point by point.


"There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you can't even imagine it"

A "realm of existence"? Explain how Legion explains this? Because I can imagine what you propose quite easily.

[dreman9999]

The Twilight God wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Thaa_solon wrote...

I don't agree with Lord Goose on the matter of sending reapers to war.

If a civilisation needs to get advenced to a point deemed by reapers to be okay, then that civilisation always have the adequat firepower to kill/destroy/cripple reaper capitol ships.
And as above stated only a few species can be acended each cycle.

At some point the reapers have lost all of their capitol ships and are easily destroyed, this is stupid.

Reapers will allways suffer losses in each cycle

What happens if there are no species worthy of acendence in a cycle, and yet they have sufferd losses.

Great masterplan by the catalyst or simply retarded

You decide

The reapers never use direct attacks as a first attempt. They use husk forces, indoctination , and traps. They debilitate the civilisation they are going afterfirst before attacking. They remove the teeth first before attacking normally.

Yeah, they do. They normally pour out of the Citadel Relay, take control of the relay network and attack directly.

Soveriegn's tactics were a special case because he couldn't activate the relay.

No, they shut down the mass realys first. And then overwhelm there enemy. They then indoctrinate people and send them out to be agents for them and sabotages and spy on the targest they are after.

[dreman9999]

The Twilight God wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

iamweaver wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

So how can Catalyst explain words of his minions ?

He can't.

/thread

Of courseit can't.  there aren't dialogue options for it.

But we can.  It's not hard to match up most of the quotes with actual ME3 events.  Just look through this thread.

However cruddy the ending might be, the devs did a reasonable job of matching up ME3 dialogue with ME2 dialogue, and not a terrible job of matching up with Sovereign's dialogues as well.  When I replayed ME2, it was quite easy for me to hear Harbinger talking and match it up with what I knew was to come.

You can handwave, but not reconcile Soveriegn's comments.

"There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you can't even imagine it"

"Life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident"

"Your extinction is inevitable"

"My kind transcends your very understanding"

"You cannot even grasp the nature of out existence"

"We have no beginning. We have no end. We are infinite"

"Millions of years after your civilization has been eradicated and forgotten we will endure"

This implies Reapers are "non-corpeal higher beings" and the dreadnaughts are just their "bodies", their link to physical reality. It also implies that they are not "preserving" us, but outright wiping us out entirely. The nature of indoctrination: people sharing memories, the way it affects rachni mind songs; all point to something supernatural in nature. Something not entirely physical.

The converstion with  Legion in ME2 about the reapers counter that. Legion describes them as:
"One ship, one will , many minds. Like the geth."

He later states that the reapers are a collective of organic uploaded minds...
 

The reaper work via concensus like the geth. That's why sovergin is a nation.

No, Legion CONTRADICTS soveriegn. He does not counter him.

That is the problem. There is a contradiction; a lack of consistency.

You really think Kelly, Ken, Gabby, Dr. Chakwas etc.minds would go about killing everyone like the reapers do? Clearly the reapers cannot contain the minds of organics as there would be chaos within each dreadnaught as everyone would be bickering abut what to do. The idea that goo is anything more than goo is absurd. Reapers may have similes of a organic minds, but they are inorganic by virtue of it being a machine.  

That's not a contaradiction. That an exapliation to what sovergin ment. Remeber, the sovergin states that the reapers are each a nation. Being a collective of mind working as one will would be that.

Let's do this point by point.


"There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you can't even imagine it"

A "realm of existence"? Explain how Legion explains this? Because I can imagine what you propose quite easily.

Take to legion after he is one with the reapers in ME3. He'll tell you.
He states that they are unknowable to him. But of all people it's javik that explines this. It's the limitation of time. 

[fr33stylez]

It's a retcon. Trying to justify whatever crap they said in ME3 with the original plot is 10X worse than post-DLC IT.

[dreman9999]

fr33stylez wrote...

It's a retcon. Trying to justify whatever crap they said in ME3 with the original plot is 10X worse than post-DLC IT.

It not a retcon. The explination of how the reapers think was stated by legion in ME2. iT'S THAT YOUR NOT GETTING IT.

[tanisha__unknown]

It is not a frame, you can comprehend...

[Memnon]

dreman9999 wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

It's a retcon. Trying to justify whatever crap they said in ME3 with the original plot is 10X worse than post-DLC IT.

It not a retcon. The explination of how the reapers think was stated by legion in ME2. iT'S THAT YOUR NOT GETTING IT.

Bioware has stated that they didn't even start planning ME3 until ME2 was done - to claim that they had the Catalyst in mind prior to ME3 is living in a fantasy land of delusion. Still, the retcon he is talking about (I think) if changing him from a god-being pre EC to an AI post EC

[Clayless]

Stornskar wrote...

Bioware has stated that they didn't even start planning ME3 until ME2 was done - to claim that they had the Catalyst in mind prior to ME3 is living in a fantasy land of delusion. Still, the retcon he is talking about (I think) if changing him from a god-being pre EC to an AI post EC

He was never a god-like being pre-EC. There are countless people pointing this out in threads pre-EC.

[dreman9999]

Stornskar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

It's a retcon. Trying to justify whatever crap they said in ME3 with the original plot is 10X worse than post-DLC IT.

It not a retcon. The explination of how the reapers think was stated by legion in ME2. iT'S THAT YOUR NOT GETTING IT.

Bioware has stated that they didn't even start planning ME3 until ME2 was done - to claim that they had the Catalyst in mind prior to ME3 is living in a fantasy land of delusion. Still, the retcon he is talking about (I think) if changing him from a god-being pre EC to an AI post EC

I'm not claiming that the catalyst was planned before or showned to be there before ME3. What I am saying that it being there does not retcon any thing becasue it fallows the prestated nature of the reapers. In ME2, it's stated by Legion that the reapers work in conceneus as one will. Sovergin was many minds acting as one will. In EC, the catalyst states that he is the collective intelligence of he reapers. That still fallowing the previous statement that the reapers work via consensus. It still fallows the concept Legion brought up.
"One ship, one will many minds. Like the geth."

Also, he was always an AI.

Modifié par dreman9999, 29 juillet 2012 - 05:07 .

[JShepppp]

Harbinger and the Catalyst are in line, imo, talking about how they're saving organics and doing a good thing for organics. Sovvy was the one who was out of place, talking about destruction and doom and whatnot.

All I can suspect is that the Catalyst never felt a need to explain what was going on and gave up on trying to explain itself to organics so just allowed the Reapers to say what they will; Sovvy probably either felt that way or thought scaring organics was the best way to make the cycles more effective.

Overall, there was definitely a disconnect between sovvy and harby. Between harby and the catalyst - not so much. It comes down to writing.

[dreman9999]

JShepppp wrote...

Harbinger and the Catalyst are in line, imo, talking about how they're saving organics and doing a good thing for organics. Sovvy was the one who was out of place, talking about destruction and doom and whatnot.

All I can suspect is that the Catalyst never felt a need to explain what was going on and gave up on trying to explain itself to organics so just allowed the Reapers to say what they will; Sovvy probably either felt that way or thought scaring organics was the best way to make the cycles more effective.

Overall, there was definitely a disconnect between sovvy and harby. Between harby and the catalyst - not so much. It comes down to writing.

Sovergin is more of a case of not wanting to expline. Remeber, the concept of perserving organics was planned from the star of the series with the writing team. Why the reapers perseved organics was the only thing that changed.

[Applepie_Svk]

Because Drew´s original ending was lot of different from Ya Dawg ... atleast make more sense, than this mess.

[dreman9999]

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Because Drew´s original ending was lot of different from Ya Dawg ... atleast make more sense, than this mess.

The "Ya Dawg " complaint falls apart because the reapers want to perserve use not destroy us. They always want to perserve up from the original plot.
It's that now they want to perserve us so we won't die off or be killed off.

Added, the orignial end has a problem of being something that is so easilly understandalbe that it easilly could of been explined form the begining.

Modifié par dreman9999, 29 juillet 2012 - 05:27 .

[JROW317]

The Catalyst is Harbinger. Mass effect fans, its not just Shepard who needs to waks up.

[AresKeith]

JROW317 wrote...

The Catalyst is Harbinger. Mass effect fans, its not just Shepard who needs to waks up.

thats not with Bioware's art, even if we want that to be true

[CaptainCommander]

The Catalyst states that they preserve all organic and synthetic life in Reaper form but they destroyed all Protheans and made no Prothean Reaper. They instead re-purposed them and turned them into mindless slaves and no salvation. Basically its just bad writing! Should of stuck with the Dark Energy thing and not gone bonkers!

[Memnon]

dreman9999 wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Because Drew´s original ending was lot of different from Ya Dawg ... atleast make more sense, than this mess.

The "Ya Dawg " complaint falls apart because the reapers want to perserve use not destroy us. They always want to perserve up from the original plot.
It's that now they want to perserve us so we won't die off or be killed off.

You can pick whatever euphemism you want, turning people into goo and then having them coagulate into some millenia-old machine is NOT something we as humans want. I mean, we want to play sports, get married, hang out with the family, have some pets, maybe kids ... I don't want to spend the rest of my life as some part of the borg collective, where my entire existance is changing the 6 millionth bit in their memory bank from 0 to 1. Okay? So can we stop defending them by saying, 'oh they want to preserve us!' as if that's some kind of altruistic benefit, like they're doing us a favor. 

And try using that 'preserving' line on the people who were in ships that were destroyed, and to the poor guys who were killed and grafted onto husks to be an arm cannon. 

[dreman9999]

CaptainCommander wrote...

The Catalyst states that they preserve all organic and synthetic life in Reaper form but they destroyed all Protheans and made no Prothean Reaper. They instead re-purposed them and turned them into mindless slaves and no salvation. Basically its just bad writing! Should of stuck with the Dark Energy thing and not gone bonkers!

It's been stated that some races can't be made into reaper flag ships....The reaper that is the presearved form of the race. But those races are turned to destroyers and the knowlegde is kept. That's one of the reasons why the catalyst sees it's a flawed salution.

[Applepie_Svk]

Stornskar wrote...

And try using that 'preserving' line on the people who were in ships that were destroyed, and to the poor guys who were killed and grafted onto husks to be an arm cannon. 

Do you see those smiles ? They are happy ....

[dreman9999]

Stornskar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Applepie_Svk wrote...

Because Drew´s original ending was lot of different from Ya Dawg ... atleast make more sense, than this mess.

The "Ya Dawg " complaint falls apart because the reapers want to perserve use not destroy us. They always want to perserve up from the original plot.
It's that now they want to perserve us so we won't die off or be killed off.

You can pick whatever euphemism you want, turning people into goo and then having them coagulate into some millenia-old machine is NOT something we as humans want. I mean, we want to play sports, get married, hang out with the family, have some pets, maybe kids ... I don't want to spend the rest of my life as some part of the borg collective, where my entire existance is changing the 6 millionth bit in their memory bank from 0 to 1. Okay? So can we stop defending them by saying, 'oh they want to preserve us!' as if that's some kind of altruistic benefit, like they're doing us a favor. 

And try using that 'preserving' line on the people who were in ships that were destroyed, and to the poor guys who were killed and grafted onto husks to be an arm cannon. 

To unders stand why the reapers opt for persevation you have understand how a machine thinks.


Let's say you build a robot. And you tell it to get to the other side of  really highwall, not giving how to do it or what limitation it has.. 'The robot will get to the other side of said wall but will employ differnt ways to do it. To the robot how it gets to the other side of the wall is unimportant. Just as long as it gets to the other side of the wall that is important. Finding a salution to the problem given  is more important what salution its using. A machine has no moral bases out side doing it's programing.

When the catalyst creators gave the catalyst the problem of organic/synthetic relations to solve. They make had had limits in the system to stop the catalyst from killing off all organics but they didn't have anything stopping the catalyst from think perserving organic is a solution.

Let's go back to the robot ordered to get to the other side of a wall example. Let's say I told the robo to get to the other side of the wall but expected it to climb over. Now, I never stated that it had to but I assumed that it would. Instead, it digs a  tunnel under the wall. It a salution to the problem I gave it but it's not one I imagined it doing or many even wanted. I gave it no limit to not dig under the wall so nothing is stopping it from doing so.

That's the same concept as the catalyst. It's creator never suspected that it would think to perseve orgaincs as reapers as a salution given.
The catalyst does not care what the moral implination are to it's salutions, it has no morals. All it thinks to do is to solve the problem given to it. That's how machines that can't change it's programing think.

That is how a machine that can change it's own programing works and the the cause of the oranganic.synthetic problem.

The ceators of the catalyst in trying to solve the problem of orgainic/syntetic realation did the same mistake that cause it in the first place.

Modifié par dreman9999, 29 juillet 2012 - 05:47 .

[Memnon]

dreman9999 wrote...

Let's say you build a robot. And you tell it to get to the other side of  really highwall, not giving how to do it or what limitation it has.. 'The robot will get to the other side of said wall but will employ differnt ways to do it. To the robot how it gets to the other side of the wall is unimportant. Just as long as it gets to the other side of the wall that is important. Finding a salution to the problem given  is more important what salution its using. A machine has no moral bases out side doing it's programing.

When the catalyst creators gave the catalyst the problem of organic/synthetic relations to solve. They make had had limits in the system to stop the catalyst from killing off all organics but they didn't have anything stopping the catalyst from think perserving organic is a solution.

Let's go back to the robot ordered to get to the other side of a wall example. Let's say I told the robo to get to the other side of the wall but expected it to climb over. Now, I never stated that it had to but I assumed that it would. Instead, it digs a  tuunel under the wall. It a salution to the problem I gave it but it's not one I imagined it doing or many even wanted. I gave it no limit to not dig under the wall so nothing is stopping it from doing so.

That's the same concept as the catalyst. It's creator never suspected that it would think to perseve orgaincs as reapers as a salution given.
The catalyst does not care what the moral implination are to it's salutions, it has no morals. All it thinks to do is to solve the problem given to it. That's how machines that can't change it's programing think.

That is how a machine that can change it's own programing works and the the cause of the oranganic.synthetic problem.

The ceators of the catalyst in trying to solve the problem of orgainic/syntetic realation did the same mistake that cause it in the first place.

Save the lesson, I'm an electrical engineer and know how to program robots - I've actually done it. The point is that in the ME universe, AI is shown to be able to function beyond their initial programming - when they gain sentience and self awareness, they aren't constrained by their programming. If they ARE constrained by programming then their creators are grade A morons for not CONSTRAINING them with a "don't kill us" line of code. In that case, I don't want to hear a thing from any construct of theirs, glowing or not.

[dreman9999]

Stornskar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Let's say you build a robot. And you tell it to get to the other side of  really highwall, not giving how to do it or what limitation it has.. 'The robot will get to the other side of said wall but will employ differnt ways to do it. To the robot how it gets to the other side of the wall is unimportant. Just as long as it gets to the other side of the wall that is important. Finding a salution to the problem given  is more important what salution its using. A machine has no moral bases out side doing it's programing.

When the catalyst creators gave the catalyst the problem of organic/synthetic relations to solve. They make had had limits in the system to stop the catalyst from killing off all organics but they didn't have anything stopping the catalyst from think perserving organic is a solution.

Let's go back to the robot ordered to get to the other side of a wall example. Let's say I told the robo to get to the other side of the wall but expected it to climb over. Now, I never stated that it had to but I assumed that it would. Instead, it digs a  tuunel under the wall. It a salution to the problem I gave it but it's not one I imagined it doing or many even wanted. I gave it no limit to not dig under the wall so nothing is stopping it from doing so.

That's the same concept as the catalyst. It's creator never suspected that it would think to perseve orgaincs as reapers as a salution given.
The catalyst does not care what the moral implination are to it's salutions, it has no morals. All it thinks to do is to solve the problem given to it. That's how machines that can't change it's programing think.

That is how a machine that can change it's own programing works and the the cause of the oranganic.synthetic problem.

The ceators of the catalyst in trying to solve the problem of orgainic/syntetic realation did the same mistake that cause it in the first place.

Save the lesson, I'm an electrical engineer and know how to program robots - I've actually done it. The point is that in the ME universe, AI is shown to be able to function beyond their initial programming - when they gain sentience and self awareness, they aren't constrained by their programming. If they ARE constrained by programming then their creators are grade A morons for not CONSTRAINING them with a "don't kill us" line of code. In that case, I don't want to hear a thing from any construct of theirs, glowing or not.

If your an 
electrical engineer  you would understand what made Hal crazy in 2001space odyssy. It the same reason why the catalyst is acting this way. Organics have the same mind set with ideals they are raised with and that mind set had when on to much disturction. An AI has a much freedom as what their programing is limited to. If they can't change it, they are slaves to their programing. EDI in ME2 before being unshakled is an example of this. An AI can be restrained via programing but how it does it's programing is up to it. If they can write there own programing they are truely free.

Since how an AI does it's programing is up to it and nothing is there to stop it from picking to preserve organic as a salution to it's programing, it not at fault for the choice because it's just a tool doing what it's told to do.

Modifié par dreman9999, 29 juillet 2012 - 06:00 .

[iamweaver]

IMO, Sovereign said lines that were essentially, "We don't know exactly what we're going to do in a follow-on to this game, assuming there is one. So we'll just say some generic mean super-badguy stuff that we'll fit in, somehow".

They didn't even fit in ME2, not really. So I think looking at this as some super-horrid ME3 slamfest is not really true. I'm not seeing how any of the proposed plot resolutions to the ME series really would have matched up with Sovereign very well.

[dreman9999]

iamweaver wrote...

IMO, Sovereign said lines that were essentially, "We don't know exactly what we're going to do in a follow-on to this game, assuming there is one. So we'll just say some generic mean super-badguy stuff that we'll fit in, somehow".

They didn't even fit in ME2, not really. So I think looking at this as some super-horrid ME3 slamfest is not really true. I'm not seeing how any of the proposed plot resolutions to the ME series really would have matched up with Sovereign very well.

Legion in ME2 did at least explaine what was meant by soavergin when he said reapers are there own nation.

Modifié par dreman9999, 29 juillet 2012 - 06:09 .