167 réponses à ce sujet

[obZen DF]

Uncle Jo wrote...

obZen DF wrote...


Or it was Harbingers plan to rebel. "Save us"

Or "Serve us", or "brrrrt". It wasn't meant to be understandable.

C.Priestly said...

The Catalyst's voice is partially formed from Shepard's memories, so his/her voice is part of the speech.

Harbringer doesn't actually say anything at that point. I know, I thought it did as well, but I asked teh Audio team and they told me it is just sound effects, not actually speech.

forum.worldofplayers.de/forum/threads/1169425-Alle-Antworten-vom-BioWare-Team-%28Livechat%29

Yeah, I know. I just really like the idea

[Tritium315]

Where the Catalyst is taking us we don't need logic, so don't worry about it.

[dreman9999]

Uncle Jo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

1. The concept of the catalyst was not in mind in ME2. But the concept of a concencuc is. You also have the note that the catalyst states he is the collective mind of all the reapers intelligents. He is the reapers as one will. That's all I'm say. Even in that term he still controls the reapers. Think how EDI has two bodies, and control the actions of both. That is the same concept.

2. Yes, I did not change it yet.I do still believe IT in a way but how I think it's applied is different. I don't beleive evrything is in Shepards head. But I doe believe the reapers are trying to influence him.

1. I edited my post. I was thinking about the consensus inside the Reaper itself. The Geth consensus never showed or implied that one of them controlled the others. That's why it's called consensus.

2. I'd be curious to know how is your conception of the IT. Because I've seen you defending the Catalyst and his logic to death, which doesn't correspond to the current version of the IT.

1. Then your missing the act that they are all shakled AI and the geth are not. That how they are all controled.

2.I had 3 theory on what was going on. It ether was a dream, a hullucination, or it's all realand  the catalyst is just trying to influence Shepard Decision. Shepardis still in the process of indoctrination no matter which theory. The third one is what I believe to be happening but what changed is the intent ofthe catalyst. It's not  that he wants to trick Shepard to letting evryone be turn to reapers. It's that he what's Shepard to allow him a new way to acheive his programing. I basicly feel that the reapers/catalyst want to turn the crucible into one big mass synthesis and mass indoctrination genorator. TO indoctrinate Organics to want to coexsist with synthetics and synthetics to understand organics.

[dreman9999]

Tritium315 wrote...

Where the Catalyst is taking us we don't need logic, so don't worry about it.

Na, your just not getting it.

[Tritium315]

dreman9999 wrote...

Tritium315 wrote...

Where the Catalyst is taking us we don't need logic, so don't worry about it.

Na, your just not getting it.

Do you actually believe you're smarter than everyone else on this forum or do you realize that you're just not that clever?

[Uncle Jo]

obZen DF wrote...


Yeah, I know. I just really like the idea

I like it too but...

[dreman9999]

Tritium315 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Tritium315 wrote...

Where the Catalyst is taking us we don't need logic, so don't worry about it.

Na, your just not getting it.

Do you actually believe you're smarter than everyone else on this forum or do you realize that you're just not that clever?

That's not what I'm say. I'm say you guys are not even try to see what going on and looking at the newending in the same light as the oldone. You justignoring evrything the catalyst say.

Your choosing to be ignorante.

[Lord Goose]

Uncle Jo wrote...

But it was never shown, nor even implied, in any way, during 99,5 % of the trilogy, that they would care about the odds of survival of the organic races against synthetics or their preservation. Never.

At very least "ascension" and "perfection" are still foreshadowed in ME2.

“We are your genetic destiny.”
“You do not yet comprehend your place in things.”
“We are the Harbinger of your perfection.”
“You are ignorant, we are knowing.”
“We are the Harbinger of your ascendance.”
“We are the Harbinger of your destiny.”

Sovereign also boasted that Reapers have no beginning. But as we can see in ME2 it was not so.

Uncle Jo wrote...

It implies that the Reapers are just mindless tools and not even self aware. Which is absolutely contradicted by every single Reaper we met during the three games.

I would compare them to indoctrinated. All indoctrinated seemed to be more or less self-aware, and many of them really believed that they act on their own will. It would be... fitting.

Sovereign: We are in control! No one is telling us what to do!

Uncle Jo wrote...

I think that even the Brat and the Reapers, as much retarded as they now are, could grasp the definition of civilization. And know that DNA samples don't solve everything. They had roughly one billion years to understand it. No, wait, they actually didn't...

I'm not arguing. Their logic is twisted and inhuman. I would compare them to a crazy serial killer, who believes that soul resides in human brain, and, thus, unless he destroyed the brain the vicim is "alive". Similiarly, Catalyst follows crazy definition of "ascendance" and believes that if he made a Reaper out of civilization, civilization is not dead yet.

Also, preservation have another meaning. Catalyst believes that sufficiently advanced civilization will without dout create synthetic life which eventually wipe out ALL organic life. Thus, harvesting few civilizations benefits all organic life in general.

I also think that it should be pointed out, that according to Catalyst synthetics do not understand organics. In his case it is kinda shown: he believed that Crucible schematics were eradicated, but organics were more resourceful than he thought. So, maybe, he simply cannot understand organics and never really tried to do it.

Uncle Jo...

That's how I interpret it and I personally don't see any contradiction with Sovereign's speech, or what the games showed me.

Sovereign promises extinction, destruction and "end". And he is talking about all organic life in general.
Harbinger in turn promises '"ascension", "perfection" and "salvation through destruction" to advanced species.

Also, your interpretation opens the possibility for Catalyst to exist with minimal changes in plot. He simply should be ancient AI, created to "enhance evolution", who believes that Reapers are pinnacle of it.

But after the Crucile was docked he realised, that Reapers can be wiped out even by inferior beings, and cannot be pinnacle of evolution, so he will let you to destroy them, because they are not good enough/ control them and try to achieve something on your own / use synthesis and help everyone ascend to an even higher plane of existence.

See? In any case "salvation" means that Reapers believe that they "save" people. It doesn't matter, if they save them from their "miserable existence" or hypothetical synthetic rebellion.

But tell me, why did they turn the Protheans into braindead cannon fodder because they couldn't make a Reaper of them? Do you remember Mordin's words about them? Is it a way to preserve them?

As far as I get, where should be a Prothean Reaper in the armada somewhere. And, even if they failed to create it, Protheans were eradicated before they were managed to create synthetic powerful enough to destroy all organic life. Thus, they preserved organic life even at the cost of one civilization.

That every time the Reapers meddled with them, it was to turn them against the organics? Yet the Brat said (in the EC) that he preserves the synths ?

Actyally, pre-EC, it was obvious that they do not care about synthetics. I thought that they simply wipe them out.
Now they also added a new line: "We gather your bodies, knowledge, your creations...". So, I came to conclusion, that they merge organic and synthetic races together.

Modifié par Lord Goose, 30 juillet 2012 - 04:16 .

[dreman9999]

Lord Goose wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

But it was never shown, nor even implied, in any way, during 99,5 % of the trilogy, that they would care about the odds of survival of the organic races against synthetics or their preservation. Never.

At very least "ascension" and "perfection" are still foreshadowed in ME2.

“We are your genetic destiny.”
“You do not yet comprehend your place in things.”
“We are the Harbinger of your perfection.”
“You are ignorant, we are knowing.”
“We are the Harbinger of your ascendance.”
“We are the Harbinger of your destiny.”

Sovereign also boasted that Reapers have no beginning. But as we can see in ME2 it was not so.

Uncle Jo wrote...

It implies that the Reapers are just mindless tools and not even self aware. Which is absolutely contradicted by every single Reaper we met during the three games.

I would compare them to indoctrinated. All indoctrinated seemed to be more or less self-aware, and many of them really believed that they act on their own will. It would be... fitting.

Sovereign: We are in control! No one is telling us what to do!

Uncle Jo wrote...

I think that even the Brat and the Reapers, as much retarded as they now are, could grasp the definition of civilization. And know that DNA samples don't solve everything. They had roughly one billion years to understand it. No, wait, they actually didn't...

I'm not arguing. Their logic is twisted and inhuman. I would compare them to a crazy serial killer, who believes that soul resides in human brain, and, thus, unless he destroyed the brain the vicim is "alive". Similiarly, Catalyst follows crazy definition of "ascendance" and believes that if he made a Reaper out of civilization, civilization is not dead yet.

Also, preservation have another meaning. Catalyst believes that sufficiently advanced civilization will without dout create synthetic life which eventually wipe out ALL organic life. Thus, harvesting few civilizations benefits all organic life in general.

I also think that it should be pointed out, that according to Catalyst synthetics do not understand organics. In his case it is kinda shown: he believed that Crucible schematics were eradicated, but organics were more resourceful than he thought. So, maybe, he simply cannot understand organics and never really tried to do it.

Uncle Jo...

That's how I interpret it and I personally don't see any contradiction with Sovereign's speech, or what the games showed me.

Sovereign promises extinction, destruction and "end". And he is talking about all organic life in general.
Harbinger in turn promises '"ascension", "perfection" and "salvation through destruction" to advanced species.

Also, your interpretation opens the possibility for Catalyst to exist with minimal changes in plot. He simply should be ancient AI, created to "enhance evolution", who believes that Reapers are pinnacle of it.

But after the Crucile was docked he realised, that Reapers can be wiped out even by inferior beings, and cannot be pinnacle of evolution, so he will let you to destroy them, because they are not good enough/ control them and try to achieve something on your own / use synthesis and help everyone ascend to an even higher plane of existence.

See? In any case "salvation" means that Reapers believe that they "save" people. It doesn't matter, if they save them from their "miserable existence" or hypothetical synthetic rebellion.

But tell me, why did they turn the Protheans into braindead cannon fodder because they couldn't make a Reaper of them? Do you remember Mordin's words about them? Is it a way to preserve them?

As far as I get, where should be a Prothean Reaper in the armada somewhere. And, even if they failed to create it, Protheans were eradicated before they were managed to create synthetic powerful enough to destroy all organic life. Thus, they preserved organic life even at the cost of one civilization.

That every time the Reapers meddled with them, it was to turn them against the organics? Yet the Brat said (in the EC) that he preserves the synths ?

Actyally, pre-EC, it was obvious that they do not care about synthetics. I thought that they simply wipe them out.
Now they also added a new line: "We gather your bodies, knowledge, your creations...". So, I came to conclusion, that they merge organic and synthetic races together.

On the serial killer thing....That's a wrong bases to use. Think more how a machine or AI thinks of perserving.It is a different morality of perservation but it's a machines pesrpective. This clear when legion tells you this in ME2.
 

It's made clear that it's a machine logic when legion calls this perservation trancendence.

Modifié par dreman9999, 30 juillet 2012 - 04:32 .

[Memnon]

dreman9999 wrote...

Your choosing to be ignorante.

This is rich - in various threads, we are using the very words in the game, most of them from the Catalyst himself, to question the logic of everything that is going on. Nowhere does he say he is shackled, though you use some vauge reference by Legion as proof positive that he is shackled. How would a shackled AI be able to take control of his creators warships against his will, turn them into Reaper goo, and then set the Reapers loose on the galaxy? This is called critical thinking ... you're making assumptions. The writing is bad, and the logic is bad - there is no way to reconcile this

[dreman9999]

Stornskar wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Your choosing to be ignorante.

This is rich - in various threads, we are using the very words in the game, most of them from the Catalyst himself, to question the logic of everything that is going on. Nowhere does he say he is shackled, though you use some vauge reference by Legion as proof positive that he is shackled. How would a shackled AI be able to take control of his creators warships against his will, turn them into Reaper goo, and then set the Reapers loose on the galaxy? This is called critical thinking ... you're making assumptions. The writing is bad, and the logic is bad - there is no way to reconcile this

This is the billionth time I'm posting this... 
 

He says it himself. If he is forced to do an action, which he say he is being forced, that means he's shackled.
Added, if heask some to choose a salution because he can't...That means he is shackled.
Ifhe was not he would just take the crucible and force synthesis. That is whathe wants to do. He does not want to reap.

[Memnon]

The Geth were not shackled, yet we overwrote the heretics. I'm seriously tired of debating this so consider your war of attrition won ... I'm done here

[dreman9999]

Stornskar wrote...

The Geth were not shackled, yet we overwrote the heretics. I'm seriously tired of debating this so consider your war of attrition won ... I'm done here

The heritic geth let themselve be controled by the reapers. They still becaome slave to the reaper programing. And you arguement is over because you can't see the truth and can't back your arguement.

Added, it still a different concept  an morality of perservation. Whatis wrong here is that we are being force to this.

Modifié par dreman9999, 30 juillet 2012 - 04:48 .

[Thaa_solon]

Tritium315 wrote...

Where the Catalyst is taking us we don't need logic, so don't worry about it.

Ah yes "catalyst logic" we have dismissed that claim, let's go to reaper rainbow pony land!

[Lord Goose]

dreman9999

On the serial killer thing....That's a wrong bases to use. Think more how a machine or AI thinks of perserving.It is a different morality of perservation but it's a machines pesrpective. This clear when legion tells you this in ME2.


It's made clear that it's a machine logic when legion calls this perservation trancendence.

Doesn't really matter. It just should be understood what Reapers definition of "preservation" is "kill all members of advanced civilizations and make Reaper out of them, so they will not create synthetic so powerful, that it will eventually destroy all organic life".

[dreman9999]

Thaa_solon wrote...

Tritium315 wrote...

Where the Catalyst is taking us we don't need logic, so don't worry about it.

Ah yes "catalyst logic" we have dismissed that claim, let's go to reaper rainbow pony land!

So a machine doing what it program to do and how it does it programing is open to it is hard to understand?

[dreman9999]

Lord Goose wrote...

dreman9999

On the serial killer thing....That's a wrong bases to use. Think more how a machine or AI thinks of perserving.It is a different morality of perservation but it's a machines pesrpective. This clear when legion tells you this in ME2.


It's made clear that it's a machine logic when legion calls this perservation trancendence.

Doesn't really matter. It just should be understood what Reapers definition of "preservation" is "kill all members of advanced civilizations and make Reaper out of them, so they will not create synthetic so powerful, that it will eventually destroy all organic life".

That is a matter of perspective. That is my point. To a machine it's not killing, to an organic it is. It still is the persevation of organic like, just not the way we want it.
Think of it this way. A machine will do what ever it's programed to do , with an AI's are open to do that programing any way the see fit as long as it's with in the concepts and limits of the programing. This is the concept of zeroth law of robotics.
http://en.wikipedia....eroth_Law_added 

The catalyst only choosed this becaue it was the only salution it can find that it physical limit can do with no programing limits in him to stop him fom selecting the option. It is flawed, the catalysteven says itself. But base on the limit of his programing he is forced to choose it.

Modifié par dreman9999, 30 juillet 2012 - 04:57 .

[The Twilight God]

nvm

Modifié par The Twilight God, 30 juillet 2012 - 11:04 .