22 réponses à ce sujet

[zyntifox]

Ever since back in the day of BG1 Bioware have constantly surpised me in the implentation of new features in their RP  games that enhances the RP experience. That is why the indroduction of paraphrasing in RP games is baffling to me. Don't get me wrong i think the paraphrase system can be a good thing such as in the Mass effect series, but that is because i do not consider or play it as a RPG but rather an action/adventure game.

So i wonder whether you consider a paraphrase system to improve the RP experience in a game or not? I do realize that this is a very general question im asking so if there are situations where they can improve and not improve the RP experience it would be nice if you could give examples of those cases. I was going to make a poll about it but i have no clue how one would go about doing that on BSN.

Edit: I have now created a poll (thank you for the help whykikyouwhy!). I've tried to make the answers mutually exclusive and hopefully i have not failed horribly at it.

Poll: http://social.biowar...91/polls/37606/

Modifié par Cstaf, 31 juillet 2012 - 10:07 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Cstaf wrote...
I was going to make a poll about it but i have no clue how one would go about doing that on BSN.

Just click the "Polls" tab/button on your top menu (where "Home," "Projects," etc are), and then click the "Create New Poll" button. You'll be given the option to create a title, description and add answer options. Then you can go into your Account Settings and set up if you want to be notified when people take the poll.

[bleetman]

Modifié par bleetman, 29 juillet 2012 - 08:39 .

[wsandista]

It doesn't improve role-playing, it improves the conversation flow in cinematic games. Role-playing is sacrificed for cinematics.

[Chiramu]

There's nothing wrong with cinematics. They are a tool to be used in story-telling much like anything else. The problem with them is that they have to work with the situation, and they can't dictate too much of the player's personal story.
I think the problem the cinematics face in Dragon Age is that they steam roll us into a situation we never wanted to be in.
I think the game engine that they use for Dragon Age doesn't give much freedom for creating cinematics, there needs to be a seamlessness between the cinematic and the gameplay.

[wsandista]

When cinematics take away role-playing ability, then there is something incredibly wrong with them in a role-playing game.

[brushyourteeth]

wsandista wrote...

When cinematics take away role-playing ability, then there is something incredibly wrong with them in a role-playing game.

This! Cinematics aren't in and of themselves a bad idea, but there's already a medium that prioritizes them over user control - it's called cinema. 


Give me clear foreknowledge of precisely what comes out of my character's mouth or give me death!

[devSin]

Paraphrasing doesn't bother me unless it leads to something stupid and unforeseen.

I don't remember having a problem with it at all in DA2. Other people have lower tolerances, of course.

I don't think it improves role-playing, but it can improve presentation, and done correctly, I don't think it's something that should hinder role-playing. It's just trying to find the right way to phrase something at this point (I do worry, though, that they'll just put in a toggle to show the full reply rather than focusing on how to improve the delivery for everybody).

I'm a fan of the wheel. I never thought I would be, but I think they got it right (or were at least headed in that direction) in DA2, and it doesn't bother me that they're set to continue using it in the future. There are trade-offs, of course, but I'm surprisingly untroubled by them.

Modifié par devSin, 30 juillet 2012 - 03:01 .

[Cultist]

Paraphrasing is flashy and simplified, very fitting for cinematic game. Dialogue and conversation system has to be dumbed down to "appeal to wider audiences". That failed miserably, of course, but nevertheless that's the direction DA3 is heading.

Modifié par Cultist, 30 juillet 2012 - 08:17 .

[SeanBahamut]

I feel paraphrasing works better in a game where your main character is voiced, and full-sentences works in games where you have a silent protagonist.

I like paraphrasing in ME, but not really in DA2. The full sentences worked well in KOTOR, but I cant quite remember what Jade Empire was like (need to give that a re-play soon!)

Modifié par SeanBahamut, 30 juillet 2012 - 09:27 .

[Fallstar]

Yeah, paraphrasing doesn't work in rpgs. (At least the type of rpgs that involve role playing, not the ones that are like "omg it has magic so it's an rpg")

But we're saddled with it in DA3, as the devs like auto dialogue, and think people don't like reading their dialogue then listening to that dialogue.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Control and Clarity of dialogue options is paramount here.

Whether that can be done using paraphrases is something we find out on a case by case basis. There's no inherent contradiction between paraphrasing and roleplaying of the cRPG kind. Nor is there necessarily a need for full text options for it to be "cRPGish".

One of my favourite cRPGs of all time, Darklands, uses a CYOA system for interactions and it works out just fine. Many cRPGs (including one of my favourites in Morrowind) use a keyword system for it's dialogue interactions.

You don't always need to know the specifics of what your character says. In fact, this gives the writers license to inject a bit of character in the responses/have conversations flow better.

(Unless you're Brian Mitsoda or Chris Avellone and you don't need the extra wiggle room because you're that damn good at writing dialogue with character and conversational flow.)

BUT, you need to have control and clarity over a conversation option. I feel that Dragon Age 2's system sometimes went out of it's way to deny that to the player so that the options could "surprise" players. While that has value from a presentation and cinematic perspective, it has no place in a roleplaying game.

As previously stated by others, the paraphrase system doesn't add anything to the "roleplaying" of the game, because it wasn't designed to. It was implemented purely to aid the aesthetics and presentation of the cinematic dialog sequences.

Modifié par CrustyBot, 30 juillet 2012 - 10:23 .

[Kidd]

CrustyBot wrote...

Whether that can be done using paraphrases is something we find out on a case by case basis. There's no inherent contradiction between paraphrasing and roleplaying of the cRPG kind. Nor is there necessarily a need for full text options for it to be "cRPGish".

Might be the first time I agree with you on something . But yes, I agree =)

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

So my mind control device is finally working?

[Arthur Cousland]

With para-phrasing, I just want to know what my character will say. Many times in DA2, Hawke would say something completely different that what I had imagined, and it would make me wish that I picked a different dialogue option. It shouldn't take multiple playthroughs, and a good memory, to know in advance what my character will say.

In general, I don't mind cinematics. I just want to feel like I'm playing the game and not watching it. I want to feel like I'm the hero of the story, and not a spectator.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Cstaf wrote...

So i wonder whether you consider a paraphrase system to improve the RP experience in a game or not? I do realize that this is a very general question im asking so if there are situations where they can improve and not improve the RP experience it would be nice if you could give examples of those cases. I was going to make a poll about it but i have no clue how one would go about doing that on BSN.

I don't consider paraphrases to be an improvement for roleplaying, more an obstruction really. I find it incredibly jarring to hear my character say things I didn't intend or expect, like the role is more being imposed than chosen. While there is a certain level of restriction even with full sentences, at least you get to make your selection with more awareness.

Paraphrases are more suited to games where the character is set, IMO.

[LobselVith8]

The paraphrasing in Dragon Age II could be really bad. Hawke having the dialogue option to say "You're useless!" but screaming "Get out of my way!" is an example of how ridiculous the terrible paraphrasing could be. Despite the criticism made against the dialogue wheel, the paraphrasing, and the auto-lines, the developers don't seem to be doing anything to rectify this, and admitted it prohibits the player from knowing what will explicitly be said by the protagonist.

[zyntifox]

Arthur Cousland wrote...

With para-phrasing, I just want to know what my character will say. Many times in DA2, Hawke would say something completely different that what I had imagined, and it would make me wish that I picked a different dialogue option. It shouldn't take multiple playthroughs, and a good memory, to know in advance what my character will say.

In general, I don't mind cinematics. I just want to feel like I'm playing the game and not watching it. I want to feel like I'm the hero of the story, and not a spectator.

There were many occasions i yelled out " NO! I didn't want to say that!" when i played DA2. I had to constantly reload and do the conversation over again, sometimes even fight the same fight twice due to unfortunate saving spots.

[Maria Caliban]

There's no 'other' button.

Paraphrasing may improve or worsen the game, it doesn't impact the 'role-play experience.'

[Sanunes]

I don't think paraphrasing is going to impact my role-playing experience. I just don't want bad paraphrasing or get a headache from reading multiple lines of extremely small text.

[wsandista]

Filament wrote...

I only really had one instance that I can recall of the paraphrase really throwing me off compared to what was actually said. But I have a high tolerance because I don't necessarily expect a faithful "in other words" of the paraphrase, I just expect the intent to match. Sort of like Crustybot's "dialog compass" suggestion of having dialog options more along the lines of, "Attempt to bribe the guard" or "Bluff that you were just passing by" or such.

I think that the "dialogue compass" would work much better for me than the current dialogue wheel. There were several times where I selected an option based on the tone indicator and paraphrase and was pretty damn suprised at what was said.

[Lord Gremlin]

Cstaf wrote...

Arthur Cousland wrote...

With para-phrasing, I just want to know what my character will say. Many times in DA2, Hawke would say something completely different that what I had imagined, and it would make me wish that I picked a different dialogue option. It shouldn't take multiple playthroughs, and a good memory, to know in advance what my character will say.

In general, I don't mind cinematics. I just want to feel like I'm playing the game and not watching it. I want to feel like I'm the hero of the story, and not a spectator.

There were many occasions i yelled out " NO! I didn't want to say that!" when i played DA2. I had to constantly reload and do the conversation over again, sometimes even fight the same fight twice due to unfortunate saving spots.

Exactly. Paraphrasing was terribad in DA2. I mean, it can be ok - paraphrase just must represent the main, central idea of response. I've used this example a lot - there's a paraphrase "Shut up" but Hawke says "I'm in charge, you do as I say". Sorry, but who wrote this? This is ultra stupid. I'd accepted paraphrase like "I'm in charge here" or even "You obey me" because it's the same main idea.  When I see "Shut up" I expect a violent response telling character to shut their mouth with no other implications. Like "Shut up already, windbag". Or "Just shut your trap, will ya?".
Writers, come on. Read paraphrase and dialogue and bloody check that they imply same basic thing. As was mentioned above, "You're useless" for example should translate into something that has same basic meaning. Like "You're a waste of space, I've no use for you." Or something along the lines. And small phrases don't need to be paraphrased. If character says "Get out of my way" just display the whole phrase.