287 réponses à ce sujet

[dreman9999]

Fawx9 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...

He somehow turns off the crucible. How exactly is this a display of lack of power?

That doesn't mean has has control over it. IF he did he would of just forced Synthesis with it.
The only reason he could turn it off is because Shepard turned it down. He already stated he had no power over what the crucible does and is being forced.
http://www.youtube.c...yvUblf28#t=558s

So you're sayng that the crucible is driven by Shepard's feelings? There's nothing in game to even suggest that. The star kid is the one that turns it off, it has nothing to do with Shepard shooting him/the epic speech.

No. The catalyst is being driven by it's programing. It programing is the only reason why the crucible was parked and Shepard was let up the citadel to select a new salution. The catalyst knew it's current plan will fail with teh concept of the crucible fully ralised. This is the last cycle it could reaper and the next one, it not this one, will stop it. Because of it being forced to do it's programing, bring peace to organics and synthetic, it asked Shepard to choose a new salution.

You can ether see the crucible as device to destroy the reapers, a device to rewrite them, or an upgrade for the catalyst to beable to achieve it's programing in a new way.
If refuse, he goes back to his old programing, including stop what even can stop as based on his programing.
To understand it, you have to understand what it wants. It's not to reap. He wants synthesis because it fully allows him to achieve what it's made for. If it had any choice, it would of just take the crucible on it's own and forced that option.
That's why he has no control. He is just a machine doing what heis programed to do.

[dreman9999]

Tritium315 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Tritium315 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Rustedness wrote...

Haven't read all the pages in this thread yet, so this may already have been asked... but if he is so powerless, how exactly did he begin the cycle? Not meaning to troll.

Limits of his program forces hom to choose the reaper satlution.Added his creator were dumb enough to give him the  first full syntectic reapers.

This is exactly what I was talking about. You have no way of knowing that; you're pulling it directly out of your ass. 

No I did not....  http://www.youtube.c...yvUblf28#t=558s

He clearly says this him self

The fact that you can pull from that line the conclusion that he's powerless is only evidence of how ****ed in the head you are. As someone else said earlier; if anything this thread was entertaining as it gave us some insight into how ridiculous the thought process is of people who think the ending makes sense.

I expline agein. That line shows he is powerless in going ageinsthis programing. I already stated personaly, he has power over the reaper and can impose his will.  But he has no will other than to do it's programing. He's powerless because he can't stop himself. When new option come up , he is powerless because his programing restricks him from choosing them.
In short, he is a slave to his programing. Indoctrinated.

[Massa FX]

Friends. I pointed out in a similar thread what I believe is inferred in the game. The star child is UNshakled AI. It murdered it's creators. Not a reach to think it murdered them because they realized it was flawed and had gone insane. They probably tried to shut it down and it killed them.

As EDI implies... she wants to live. Without Shepards mentorship and Jokers adoratiom and the acceptance of Normandy crew EDI may well have gone rogue too.

As Shepard already shut down other rogue AI's that mean harm to others, my suggestion to destroy or shut down or hack the AI blue box is a logical conclusion.

Find the brain, save the galaxy.

Keep your honor. Be the Shepard you were born to be.

Modifié par Massa FX, 30 juillet 2012 - 02:27 .

[Tritium315]

dreman9999 wrote...

I expline agein. That line shows he is powerless in going ageinsthis programing. I already stated personaly, he has power over the reaper and can impose his will.  But he has no will other than to do it's programing. He's powerless because he can't stop himself. When new option come up , he is powerless because his programing restricks him from choosing them.
In short, he is a slave to his programing. Indoctrinated.

 

I will be watching this month to see if you get gold in the logic olympics.

[Fawx9]

dreman9999 wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...

He somehow turns off the crucible. How exactly is this a display of lack of power?

That doesn't mean has has control over it. IF he did he would of just forced Synthesis with it.
The only reason he could turn it off is because Shepard turned it down. He already stated he had no power over what the crucible does and is being forced.
http://www.youtube.c...yvUblf28#t=558s

So you're sayng that the crucible is driven by Shepard's feelings? There's nothing in game to even suggest that. The star kid is the one that turns it off, it has nothing to do with Shepard shooting him/the epic speech.

No. The catalyst is being driven by it's programing. It programing is the only reason why the crucible was parked and Shepard was let up the citadel to select a new salution. The catalyst knew it's current plan will fail with teh concept of the crucible fully ralised. This is the last cycle it could reaper and the next one, it not this one, will stop it. Because of it being forced to do it's programing, bring peace to organics and synthetic, it asked Shepard to choose a new salution.

You can ether see the crucible as device to destroy the reapers, a device to rewrite them, or an upgrade for the catalyst to beable to achieve it's programing in a new way.
If refuse, he goes back to his old programing, including stop what even can stop as based on his programing.
To understand it, you have to understand what it wants. It's not to reap. He wants synthesis because it fully allows him to achieve what it's made for. If it had any choice, it would of just take the crucible on it's own and forced that option.
That's why he has no control. He is just a machine doing what heis programed to do.

Then how did he start the cycle? He said he was designed to bring peace. Instead he concluded that he couldn't and started reaping and 'preservation of organics' instead.

He can't be shackled and unshackled at the same time.

He turns it off because he could, he was never forced to do anything.

[dreman9999]

Massa FX wrote...

Friends. I pointed out in a similar thread what I believe is inferred in the game. The star child is UNshakled AI. It murdered it's creators. Not a reach to think it murdered them because they realized it was flawed and had gone insane. They probably tried to shut it down and it killed them.

As EDI implies... she wants to live. Without Shepards mentorship and Jokers adoratiom and the acceptance of Normandy crew EDI may well have gone rogue too.

As Shepard already shut down other rogue AI's that mean harm to others, my suggestion to destroy or shut down or hack the AI blue box is a logical conclusion.

Find the brain, save the galaxy.

Keep your honor. Be the Shepard you were born to be.

1. The reaper perserve organics. Legion tells you this in ME2. 
 

2.The catalyst preserving organics. The is well with in it's programing.  ****** was given a salution to solve and how to solve it is open to it. It's creators did not agree but it's programing is not do what ever it's creators say.

3. Edi only came to that conculsion becauseshe was allowed to find a morality and wasnot force to be a tool.

Modifié par dreman9999, 30 juillet 2012 - 02:40 .

[dreman9999]

Fawx9 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Fawx9 wrote...

He somehow turns off the crucible. How exactly is this a display of lack of power?

That doesn't mean has has control over it. IF he did he would of just forced Synthesis with it.
The only reason he could turn it off is because Shepard turned it down. He already stated he had no power over what the crucible does and is being forced.
http://www.youtube.c...yvUblf28#t=558s

So you're sayng that the crucible is driven by Shepard's feelings? There's nothing in game to even suggest that. The star kid is the one that turns it off, it has nothing to do with Shepard shooting him/the epic speech.

No. The catalyst is being driven by it's programing. It programing is the only reason why the crucible was parked and Shepard was let up the citadel to select a new salution. The catalyst knew it's current plan will fail with teh concept of the crucible fully ralised. This is the last cycle it could reaper and the next one, it not this one, will stop it. Because of it being forced to do it's programing, bring peace to organics and synthetic, it asked Shepard to choose a new salution.

You can ether see the crucible as device to destroy the reapers, a device to rewrite them, or an upgrade for the catalyst to beable to achieve it's programing in a new way.
If refuse, he goes back to his old programing, including stop what even can stop as based on his programing.
To understand it, you have to understand what it wants. It's not to reap. He wants synthesis because it fully allows him to achieve what it's made for. If it had any choice, it would of just take the crucible on it's own and forced that option.
That's why he has no control. He is just a machine doing what heis programed to do.

Then how did he start the cycle? He said he was designed to bring peace. Instead he concluded that he couldn't and started reaping and 'preservation of organics' instead.

He can't be shackled and unshackled at the same time.

He turns it off because he could, he was never forced to do anything.

His creator were dumb enough to give him a peace keep force, the reapers in full synthetic form. He used thme to force organics in to being the first reaper madeout of organics to perseve them.
And the concultionis the only why to bring and keep peace is to turn advance organics to a new stage of life, a reaper.
He is shacked. But what you not getting that an AI chooses how it's programing is done just as long as he does his programing. If give an open end quetion, an AI is free to choose any salution as long asit's with in it's constrants. Their was no limit to perserving organics given tothe catalyst. That is why it choosed it. Also, as I said before, it turn off the crucible because the option to change the catalyst , aka, choose a new salution, was refuse. It when back to it's curretn salution.

[dreman9999]

Tritium315 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

I expline agein. That line shows he is powerless in going ageinsthis programing. I already stated personaly, he has power over the reaper and can impose his will.  But he has no will other than to do it's programing. He's powerless because he can't stop himself. When new option come up , he is powerless because his programing restricks him from choosing them.
In short, he is a slave to his programing. Indoctrinated.

 

I will be watching this month to see if you get gold in the logic olympics.

For the billionth time, even the catalyst states that he isunder his programs control. He makes it clear here.
 
This is not something had to understand.

[GreyLycanTrope]

dreman9999 wrote...
1. The reaper perserve organics. Legion tells you this in ME2. 
 

2.The catalyst preserving organics. The is well with in it's programing.  ****** was given a salution to solve and how to solve it is open to it. It's creators did not agree but it's programing is not do what ever it's creators say.

I find this idea of "preserving organics" to be a failure but I can see how a machine could reach that conclusion, AI's are software after all, they don't care much for physical form, to them preserving knowledge might be seen as an analogue to preserving a species. Though this is a very skewed view.

You're contradicting yourself in the second part though, the whole idea of a shackeld AI is one that has saftey features to ensure it  stays under the control of it's creators, a shackled AI can't go against the objections of it's creators.

[dreman9999]

Greylycantrope wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
1. The reaper perserve organics. Legion tells you this in ME2. 
 

2.The catalyst preserving organics. The is well with in it's programing.  ****** was given a salution to solve and how to solve it is open to it. It's creators did not agree but it's programing is not do what ever it's creators say.

I find this idea of "preserving organics" to be a failure but I can see how a machine could reach that conclusion, AI's are software after all, they don't care much for physical form, to them preserving knowledge might be seen as an analogue to preserving a species. Though this is a very skewed view.

You're contradicting yourself in the second part though, the whole idea of a shackeld AI is one that has saftey features to ensure it  stays under the control of it's creators, a shackled AI can't go against the objections of it's creators.

Yes, the idea is toprotect one self but you need to understand that the catalyst was made to serve organic and synthetic. TO bring it to peace. How it does is up to the AI. This is an exampe of the Zerth law of robotics.
http://en.wikipedia....eroth_Law_added 

The problem with shackling an AI to protect oneself is that the person has to concept every way an AI can go hay wire or do something you don't want it to do. We have a limit in think about everything that would happen. An AI does not. It's a thinking machine that has endless time to think of concepts. It will, if advance enough in intelligence, eventully find a loop hole in the programing it has. If the concept of shakling is to tell a machine not to do something, it's creators have to see that the Ai will do that action  they don't want them to do.

How can anyone imagine that the catalyst would think of perserving organic and shackle it from that choice?

Modifié par dreman9999, 30 juillet 2012 - 02:56 .

[Massa FX]

Ok! We get it Dreman9999. Thank you for your insight and persistence.

[3DandBeyond]

KevShep wrote...

it was not Drew K's idea to have a catalsyt.

Edit: Casy and Walters should have NEVER changed the story.

The truth is that it's very likely that all this was Walters' way of ending Shepard's story by destroying it all.  He wrote the Arrival and that shows what a relay does when it is destroyed.  He said after ME3 the galaxy is a wasteland.  The crucible was to create a galactic dark ages.  They wanted this all to be gone, blown up, destroyed.  And I think quite literally it is because they wanted this story or this ME type of game and universe to be destroyed-since there are indications they wanted to go with an MMO or just more of an action oriented game if they even used the ME name ever again.

What happened is people complained and couldn't agree that the galaxy was destroyed.  The whole ending made no sense-the torso, the normandy, the star gazer.  Well the star gazer and the blue screen were both directing the player to buy SP DLC that would be set before the total annihilation of the galaxy.  When people complained, they used twitter to retcon it all and then when the EC was released they acted all surprised that people ever thought the galaxy was destroyed.  But this was clearly Mac Walters' wish.

I think the catalyst is the worst thing that ever happened not only to this series, but to Bioware as a whole.  They did that to themselves  And they didn't have to.  The catalyst is extremely powerful.  He almost instantly alienated a rabid ME fanbase and his new and improved version can do nothing to fully bring that fanbase back.  His true power could only be seen if he went to Walters and Hudson and said, "I quit."  If he did that he might help redeem a great series.

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

KevShep wrote...

it was not Drew K's idea to have a catalsyt.

Edit: Casy and Walters should have NEVER changed the story.

The truth is that it's very likely that all this was Walters' way of ending Shepard's story by destroying it all.  He wrote the Arrival and that shows what a relay does when it is destroyed.  He said after ME3 the galaxy is a wasteland.  The crucible was to create a galactic dark ages.  They wanted this all to be gone, blown up, destroyed.  And I think quite literally it is because they wanted this story or this ME type of game and universe to be destroyed-since there are indications they wanted to go with an MMO or just more of an action oriented game if they even used the ME name ever again.

What happened is people complained and couldn't agree that the galaxy was destroyed.  The whole ending made no sense-the torso, the normandy, the star gazer.  Well the star gazer and the blue screen were both directing the player to buy SP DLC that would be set before the total annihilation of the galaxy.  When people complained, they used twitter to retcon it all and then when the EC was released they acted all surprised that people ever thought the galaxy was destroyed.  But this was clearly Mac Walters' wish.

I think the catalyst is the worst thing that ever happened not only to this series, but to Bioware as a whole.  They did that to themselves  And they didn't have to.  The catalyst is extremely powerful.  He almost instantly alienated a rabid ME fanbase and his new and improved version can do nothing to fully bring that fanbase back.  His true power could only be seen if he went to Walters and Hudson and said, "I quit."  If he did that he might help redeem a great series.

The catalyst is interchangable. It has no power over the conclution of the plot.
Ask yourself this. If EDI presented the 3 choices at the end of the game, with them do exactly what they did in EC, would you like the ending then?

[Massa FX]

Yes. Catalyst has near destroyed player confidence in the franchise. Oh. I've got to go. I'm bring over another ME2 character to start her ME3 hopeless adventure.

Yup. I still play. I'M a gamer chic to the bone.

[dreman9999]

Massa FX wrote...

Yes. Catalyst has near destroyed player confidence in the franchise. Oh. I've got to go. I'm bring over another ME2 character to start her ME3 hopeless adventure.

Yup. I still play. I'M a gamer chic to the bone.

If edi was the one to give the 3 choices, as they are in EC, Would it make a difference?

Modifié par dreman9999, 30 juillet 2012 - 03:33 .

[Mazebook]

Stornskar wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Rustedness wrote...

Haven't read all the pages in this thread yet, so this may already have been asked... but if he is so powerless, how exactly did he begin the cycle? Not meaning to troll.

Hi,
it is unknown how he created the first cycle, but it is obvious that he was more powerfull than, as he is now when we meet him.

It is shown that he has no control over the citadel.(Shaperd opening the arms) 
We know that the keepers are maintaining the Citadel.
We know that the citadel is used to build reapers.
So it can be assumed that he had at one point he had control over the keepers. 

in my other thread about his origin story...I describe a possible scenerio how this could have played out.

Rustedness picked up on something I mentioned a few pages back - if he is powerless and shackled, then how did he take control of the warships which turned his creators into the first "True Reaper." It is absolutely ludicrous to say he has no power when he outright says he controls the Reapers, and you have evidence that he controlled the warships against his creators' will, and created the cycles ... it is beyond disbelief

I seem to miss something...what warships are you talking about?

What I say is that he himself has no power...all is power comes by proxy...

The reapers ensure that he has power over the cycle...the keepers ensure that he has power over the citadel.

furthermore he has no power over himself...he can not evolve...he can´t make preferences...He does not seem able to do anything else instead of following his programming...he is bound to it.

I am admiting that calling him powerless is a little to much...he had more power in the past...but when we met him his power is  reduced to the reapers fighting outside and if they may attack the crucible or not now that it is docked.

Modifié par maaaze, 30 juillet 2012 - 03:57 .

[dreman9999]

maaaze wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Rustedness wrote...

Haven't read all the pages in this thread yet, so this may already have been asked... but if he is so powerless, how exactly did he begin the cycle? Not meaning to troll.

Hi,
it is unknown how he created the first cycle, but it is obvious that he was more powerfull than, as he is now when we meet him.

It is shown that he has no control over the citadel.(Shaperd opening the arms) 
We know that the keepers are maintaining the Citadel.
We know that the citadel is used to build reapers.
So it can be assumed that he had at one point he had control over the keepers. 

in my other thread about his origin story...I describe a possible scenerio how this could have played out.

Rustedness picked up on something I mentioned a few pages back - if he is powerless and shackled, then how did he take control of the warships which turned his creators into the first "True Reaper." It is absolutely ludicrous to say he has no power when he outright says he controls the Reapers, and you have evidence that he controlled the warships against his creators' will, and created the cycles ... it is beyond disbelief

I seem to miss something...what warships are you talking about?

What I say is that he himself has no power...all is power comes by proxy...

The reapers ensure that he has power over the cycle...the keepers ensure that he has power over the citadel.

furthermore he has no power over himself...he can not evolve...he can´t make preferences...He does not seem able to do anything else instead of following his programming...he is bound to it.

I am admiting that calling him powerless is a little to much...he had more power in the past...but when we met him his power is  reduced to the reapers fighting outside and if they may attack the crucible or not now that it is docked.

The catalyst says his creators made the first reapers. He then said he used them to make the first true reapers out of his creators.

[Mazebook]

dreman9999 wrote...
The catalyst says his creators made the first reapers. He then said he used them to make the first true reapers out of his creators.

hmm...do you conclude this out of this line : "
My creators gave them form. I gave them function. They, in turn, give me purpose. [My creators] became the first true Reaper.  " ?

I always thought that this was connected to the line before : "
The Reapers are a synthetic representation of my creators. "

meaning that their look determend the look of the reapers...

I don´t think "My creators gave them form" implies that they build them...only why they look the way they do.

or is there more evidence, that i am missing?

Modifié par maaaze, 30 juillet 2012 - 04:30 .

[dreman9999]

maaaze wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
The catalyst says his creators made the first reapers. He then said he used them to make the first true reapers out of his creators.

hmm...do you conclude this out of this line : "
My creators gave them form. I gave them function. They, in turn, give me purpose. [My creators] became the first true Reaper.  " ?

I always thought that this was connected to the line before : "
The Reapers are a synthetic representation of my creators. "

meaning that their look determend the look of the reapers...

I don´t think "My creators gave them form" implies that they build them...only why they look the way they do.

or is there more evidence, that i am missing?

I think it does. The question you have to ask is why would "creators gave them form"mean I based the design of them off how may creators look. Only organics make synthetics to look similer to them. Why would the catalyst make synthetics that look like it's creators?
It makes more sense that his creators gave him the power he has now.

Modifié par dreman9999, 30 juillet 2012 - 04:36 .

[Memnon]

maaaze wrote...
I seem to miss something...what warships are you talking about?

What I say is that he himself has no power...all is power comes by proxy...

The reapers ensure that he has power over the cycle...the keepers ensure that he has power over the citadel.

furthermore he has no power over himself...he can not evolve...he can´t make preferences...He does not seem able to do anything else instead of following his programming...he is bound to it.

I am admiting that calling him powerless is a little to much...he had more power in the past...but when we met him his power is  reduced to the reapers fighting outside and if they may attack the crucible or not now that it is docked.

Shepard: Where did the Reapers come from? Did you create them?
Catalyst: My creators gave them form; I gave them function; they, in turn give me purpose. The Reapers are a synthetic representation of my creators. 
Shepard: And what happened to your creators
Catalyst: They became the first TRUE Reaper. They did not approve, but it was the only solution

The implication here is that the creators made the first iteration of the Reapers and the Catalyst either was given them in order to enforce his peace, or he took them over from the creators. He harvested the creators against their will, so the Catalyst obviously had some firepower behind him. 

Modifié par Stornskar, 30 juillet 2012 - 04:40 .

[Thaa_solon]

Dear Dreman9999

Your logic is as flawed as the catalysts

This exchange is over

Enjoy your future endevors

[Lord Goose]

He harvested the creators against their will, so the Catalyst obviously had some firepower behind him.

It could be these "false" Reapers.

[dreman9999]

Thaa_solon wrote...

Dear Dreman9999

Your logic is as flawed as the catalysts

This exchange is over

Enjoy your future endevors

Youtoo ignorante to understand how wrong you are.

[Memnon]

Lord Goose wrote...

He harvested the creators against their will, so the Catalyst obviously had some firepower behind him.

It could be these "false" Reapers.

Right, that is exactly my point - the false Reapers are what I refer to as the warships that the Catalyst took over. The True Reapers are either a combination of the warships and gooified creators, plus future cycles, or they became obsolete and discarded/repurposed.

Modifié par Stornskar, 30 juillet 2012 - 05:05 .

[3DandBeyond]

dreman9999 wrote...

The catalyst is interchangable. It has no power over the conclution of the plot.
Ask yourself this. If EDI presented the 3 choices at the end of the game, with them do exactly what they did in EC, would you like the ending then?

EDI would never be able to offer those choices.  And one of the problems is that a lot of people don't see that the catalyst has manipulated them.  His presence has fooled them and they don't know it. 

He very much does matter-or who represents the catalyst matters.

If EDI were saying it, I think Shepard would be telling Joker to check her programming.
If Harbinger would be saying it there'd be a lot of people saying, "no way I'd make one of his choices".
If an unindoctrinated TIM were, people would be saying that Control is the canon choice or something.
If your LI was saying it, you'd ask if there were other options and wonder if s/he had been indoctrinated.

Since it's this kid there are several thoughts about him.  Some see him as lying but not about the choices.  Some see him as "crazy" for an AI but still think the choices make sense.  Or they see him as having nothing to do with the choices and even as UGH a tragic figure.

I do think that some people are at least minimally fooled by the catalyst showing up as a kid.  Even if they think they aren't.  We do this in real life all the time.  They do studies on this all the time.  If a pretty woman and an ugly one are fighting, most people will think the ugly woman is in the wrong.  If a parent is mad at their kid in the store (not yelling but disciplining), many of us are instantly concerned for the child.  I've seen this first hand.  Men are often ridiculed and not believed if they say their wife physically abuses them because it does not fit in with our stereotypes.

So, subconsciously a lot of us are predisposed to seeing innocence in what should be innocent.  It's why kids that have murdered at a very young age are not suspects right away even if things point to them.  This is the power the catalyst has.  We underestimate him.

And no, no matter who was the catalyst, I would never like the ending.  You are correct.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 30 juillet 2012 - 05:18 .