287 réponses à ce sujet

[tyrvas]

Found this reply to a question in another forum about 'The reapers real motivation',
you may check it if you wish, the link to it can be found in the quote below, writer's name.

This is exactly what I've always thought about the Catalyst...

  StarvingGamer wrote...

The Catalyst is an amazingly advanced AI, a super-genius of super-geniuses.
At some point the Catalyst came to the conclusion that organics will always seek to
make better AI and that AI will eventually evolve to the point of determining organic life
to be obsolete. Whether or not this is an accurate conclusion doesn't matter, even
super-geniuses get it wrong some times, what matters it that the Catalyst feels self
assured that it is right. Therefore it develops what it believes to be the optimal plan to
ensure the continued existence of organic life. By eradicating specific organic races
before they grow too far, It can act as gardener by essentially pruning the universe.

And the Reapers are the shears. They too are highly advanced AI, created powerful
enough to properly execute the cycle but not sophisticated enough to disobey their
prime directive. As his creations, the Catalyst is reluctant to discard the Reapers
entirely but ultimately understands that they can no longer serve their intended purpose
and therefore is willing to leave their fate in Shepard's hands.

As far as having their own soul, you're right that idea is a very huge theme of the entire
series but it is not one that can be answered definitively. A Paragon Shepard may feel
that the thought processes of synthetics mirror our own, with electrons bouncing around
our brains / processors drawing on old data and reaching new conclusions. Therefore
they too can be considered as living beings which makes certain choices like eradicating
the heretics or eventually all synthetics morally wrong. On the other hand, a Renegade
Shepard may feel that the keys are flesh and blood. No matter how advanced the AI,
a machine is still a machine. They were made by organics as tools and tools don't have
feelings, rights, and certainly not a soul.

So in the end, whether or not the Reapers have souls is a matter of opinion.
But it certainly isn't a twist or hidden idea.

Edit: fixed wall of text in quote.
 

Modifié par tyrvas, 30 juillet 2012 - 05:23 .

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The catalyst is interchangable. It has no power over the conclution of the plot.
Ask yourself this. If EDI presented the 3 choices at the end of the game, with them do exactly what they did in EC, would you like the ending then?

EDI would never be able to offer those choices.  And one of the problems is that a lot of people don't see that the catalyst has manipulated them.  His presence has fooled them and they don't know it. 

He very much does matter-or who represents the catalyst matters.

If EDI were saying it, I think Shepard would be telling Joker to check her programming.
If Harbinger would be saying it there'd be a lot of people saying, "no way I'd make one of his choices".
If an unindoctrinated TIM were, people would be saying that Control is the canon choice or something.
If your LI was saying it, you'd ask if there were other options and wonder if s/he had been indoctrinated.

Since it's this kid there are several thoughts about him.  Some see him as lying but not about the choices.  Some see him as "crazy" for an AI but still think the choices make sense.  Or they see him as having nothing to do with the choices and even as UGH a tragic figure.

I do think that some people are at least minimally fooled by the catalyst showing up as a kid.  Even if they think they aren't.  We do this in real life all the time.  They do studies on this all the time.  If a pretty woman and an ugly one are fighting, most people will think the ugly woman is in the wrong.  If a parent is mad at their kid in the store (not yelling but disciplining), many of us are instantly concerned for the child.  I've seen this first hand.  Men are often ridiculed and not believed if they say their wife physically abuses them because it does not fit in with our stereotypes.

So, subconsciously a lot of us are predisposed to seeing innocence in what should be innocent.  It's why kids that have murdered at a very young age are not suspects right away even if things point to them.  This is the power the catalyst has.  We underestimate him.

And no, no matter who was the catalyst, I would never like the ending.  You are correct.

I'm sorry... What does this mean?
 http://www.youtube.c...yvUblf28#t=558s 

Why is he forced to do what Shepard chooses? Why does the catalyst state that the best choice is synthesis but does not out right choose synthesisi on his own?
Every time you say the catalyst is in control, you missing the fact that he says that he is not, The he is saying he is forced. That is a shackled AI.
The catalyst has no power over what the crucible does and aslong as you think so, you will never understand it. That catalyst is as much as a hostage to the crucibles choices as you are.

The problem he is that you not understand how a machine thinks everything you stated is how organics think, machines are different in the way they think from organics. Machines have no moral ground if they are not allowed to find any. Machine think in absoluts if they can't change there programing.That is how machines are.
Take the time to think like a machine and you'll understand the catalyst is not trying to trick you.
If a machine is programed to killyou but it tells you the only way to stop it is to reprogram it and you refuse to do it, what tdo you think will happen?
That the same case with the catalyst thinking.

The catalyst does not control the crucible. The crucible controls the catalyst.

Modifié par dreman9999, 30 juillet 2012 - 06:26 .

[Tritium315]

dreman9999 wrote...

maaaze wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
The catalyst says his creators made the first reapers. He then said he used them to make the first true reapers out of his creators.

hmm...do you conclude this out of this line : "
My creators gave them form. I gave them function. They, in turn, give me purpose. [My creators] became the first true Reaper.  " ?

I always thought that this was connected to the line before : "
The Reapers are a synthetic representation of my creators. "

meaning that their look determend the look of the reapers...

I don´t think "My creators gave them form" implies that they build them...only why they look the way they do.

or is there more evidence, that i am missing?

I think it does. The question you have to ask is why would "creators gave them form"mean I based the design of them off how may creators look. Only organics make synthetics to look similer to them. Why would the catalyst make synthetics that look like it's creators?
It makes more sense that his creators gave him the power he has now.

I dunno what the **** they're talking about but watching dreman and maaaze argue with eachother is entertaining as ****.

[3DandBeyond]

dreman9999 wrote...

I'm sorry... What does this mean?
 http://www.youtube.c...yvUblf28#t=558s 

Why is he forced to do what Shepard chooses? Why does the catalyst state that the best choice is synthesis but does not out right choose synthesisi on his own?
Every time you say the catalyst is in control, you missing the fact that he says that he is not, The he is saying he is forced. That is a shackled AI.
The catalyst has no power over what the crucible does and aslong as you think so, you will never understand it. That catalyst is as much as a hostage to the crucibles choices as you are.

The problem he is that you not understand how a machine thinks everything you stated is how organics think, machines are different in the way they think from organics. Machines have no moral ground if they are not allowed to find any. Machine think in absoluts if they can't change there programing.That is how machines are.
Take the time to think like a machine and you'll understand the catalyst is not trying to trick you.
If a machine is programed to killyou but it tells you the only way to stop it is to reprogram it and you refuse to do it, what tdo you think will happen?
That the same case with the catalyst thinking.

The catalyst does not control the crucible. The crucible controls the catalyst.

I'm sorry but where is the kid ever forced to do what Shepard chooses.  In control he needs Shepard to join the arcing rods.  He can't do that.
In Synthesis he needs Shepard's energy or essence.  He doesn't have that.
In Destroy he needs Shepard to physically destroy the tubes.  He can't do that.

Oh that's my problem.  I don't understand how machines think. 

Who created the plans for the crucible?  What is the crucible?  Where are the choices?  Where does the catalyst live?

If a machine can adapt it's thinking and it is killing people and you come before that machine and try to destroy it, what might a machine do?

Did you play ME1?  I'm not being smart, but you might not have.  In ME1, there's a dumber AI on the citadel and he's stealing money because he wants to get to a geth ship.  He tries to kill Shepard.  He adapted and he has been stealing money and he's been deceitful in doing it--hiding the money in different places.  Understand that, a deceptive AI.

The kid is a more advanced adaptable AI.  He understands and can learn things.  EDI is not as advanced and she learned how to feel, to love.  The geth learned about the soul.

The kid could easily be capable of lying.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 30 juillet 2012 - 08:22 .

[dreman9999]

3DandBeyond wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

I'm sorry... What does this mean?
 http://www.youtube.c...yvUblf28#t=558s 

Why is he forced to do what Shepard chooses? Why does the catalyst state that the best choice is synthesis but does not out right choose synthesisi on his own?
Every time you say the catalyst is in control, you missing the fact that he says that he is not, The he is saying he is forced. That is a shackled AI.
The catalyst has no power over what the crucible does and aslong as you think so, you will never understand it. That catalyst is as much as a hostage to the crucibles choices as you are.

The problem he is that you not understand how a machine thinks everything you stated is how organics think, machines are different in the way they think from organics. Machines have no moral ground if they are not allowed to find any. Machine think in absoluts if they can't change there programing.That is how machines are.
Take the time to think like a machine and you'll understand the catalyst is not trying to trick you.
If a machine is programed to killyou but it tells you the only way to stop it is to reprogram it and you refuse to do it, what tdo you think will happen?
That the same case with the catalyst thinking.

The catalyst does not control the crucible. The crucible controls the catalyst.

I'm sorry but where is the kid ever forced to do what Shepard chooses. .....

I don't even have to read more than that to see you still don't get it. He says he's being force.
 http://www.youtube.c...yvUblf28#t=558s 
If you click the link it will be him say he is being forced.
If you pick destroy he allws him self to be destroed.
If you pick cantrol, he lets you take over.

And all the while he is saying he want synthesis. You says it's a trick...the flaw of your parania fails to haveyou ask is what his trying to tick you to do. What is he trying to trick you to do? I ask this becaus eyou insisting that your being tricked.  If he tells you he want synthesi and allows you to destroy him, what was the thing he was trying to trick you to do?
Are you say he want to trick you to destroy him  and end the reapers? To take control of the reapers? If he has control of the crucible, why allow shepard to destroy or control the reapers?

Your not making any sense.

[mauro2222]

dreman9999 wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The catalyst states he is the collective intelligence of the reapers. What more is there to say? There is nothing in the plot that says he controls them like puppet.This is a case that it literaly translated to be one thing.

I've never said "they are puppets"...

I said, the catalyst has access to the reapers. Jeez, read better.

Access to the reapers is still the same as being all the reapers. Edi is EVA's body and has access to it.

A synthetic can have as many bodies as they want. EDI has 2.

Ok... you're having a reading problem, or one related to understanding. If I have access to books that doesn't mean I'm a book, for ****'s sake... your assumption is nosense. Access to information, thoughts, data, feelings, whatever crap you want doesn't mean it experiences itself.

It's different with directly linked self aware machines. No matter how you cut it a machine can have as many bodies as it want. EDI has 2.

And who the hell cares? this doesn't disprove any of my points.

Jeez, you sound like Blueprotoss.

BSN user: They guy told you that he saw blue, then is blue.
Blueprotoss: Yet, yellow is yellow.

[Massa FX]

Lock... lock.... ... .... lock.... lock... thread

[KevShep]

dreman9999 wrote...

KevShep wrote...



 Trust me I understand the whole point of synthetics as "things" or "property" to organics. Iam saying that if it needed to be a tool to stop the very thing they just created then it makes even less sense then before.

There is just one other problem with you post. You mentioned that if organics understood this then they wouldnt need to do what they are doing. However in just a short time the quarians and the geth were able to get along as well and the human crew and EDI. So I say again that this WOULD have happend long before Shepard's cycle because it just took an understanding. You cant tell me that AI's and organics never came to a conclusion like this in the millions of cycles before.

anyway Iam off to bed, I will be back on here tomorrow night.

I'm sorry? The quarians and the geth did not understand this on their own. It  took a direct assist form some one that understood who took the time to understand synthetics, Shepard. The only reson why the quarian /geth conflict resolved in Peace was because Shepard took the time to understand the geth through legion. If he never met Legion, there would not be any peace with the quarians and geth. Even more ironicly, Shepard would have never met Legion if their was no conflict with the reapers.
It takes alot of effort in changing one state of mind to think of a thing you see as a tool to be it's own being. We even have this problem with ourselves for genorations. The only reason EDI is accepted as her own being was because she was allowed to be unshakled to save the ship and she had an understand of humanity enough to charm Joker after. And even with that extent, none of what happen to EDi would of happen if there was no reaper conflict.

If one person took the time to understand synthetics then is nothing stopping other races from offering peace at some point inorder to understand, because I HIGHLY doubt that EVERY ONE in the galaxy hates them(synthetics)(just like in real life, not everyone has the same opinion).

Its true that conflict advances tech and society. However if the reapers are looking for a "solution" then they are not doing there true programing if they are stopping conflict before it happends. No matter what way you look at it the ending part of ME3 does not make any sense.

 BTW, if they are using indoctrination then they...CAN...understand organics because they have access to there minds. Over time they can collect enough data to understand that there is a problem with THEM and THERE programing. Point is...They have to be unshakled inorder to indoctrinate a mind filled with emotions and logic. If not then they CANT effect the organics at all because it takes an understanding of it.

[dreman9999]

KevShep wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

KevShep wrote...



 Trust me I understand the whole point of synthetics as "things" or "property" to organics. Iam saying that if it needed to be a tool to stop the very thing they just created then it makes even less sense then before.

There is just one other problem with you post. You mentioned that if organics understood this then they wouldnt need to do what they are doing. However in just a short time the quarians and the geth were able to get along as well and the human crew and EDI. So I say again that this WOULD have happend long before Shepard's cycle because it just took an understanding. You cant tell me that AI's and organics never came to a conclusion like this in the millions of cycles before.

anyway Iam off to bed, I will be back on here tomorrow night.

I'm sorry? The quarians and the geth did not understand this on their own. It  took a direct assist form some one that understood who took the time to understand synthetics, Shepard. The only reson why the quarian /geth conflict resolved in Peace was because Shepard took the time to understand the geth through legion. If he never met Legion, there would not be any peace with the quarians and geth. Even more ironicly, Shepard would have never met Legion if their was no conflict with the reapers.
It takes alot of effort in changing one state of mind to think of a thing you see as a tool to be it's own being. We even have this problem with ourselves for genorations. The only reason EDI is accepted as her own being was because she was allowed to be unshakled to save the ship and she had an understand of humanity enough to charm Joker after. And even with that extent, none of what happen to EDi would of happen if there was no reaper conflict.

If one person took the time to understand synthetics then is nothing stopping other races from offering peace at some point inorder to understand, because I HIGHLY doubt that EVERY ONE in the galaxy hates them(synthetics)(just like in real life, not everyone has the same opinion).

Its true that conflict advances tech and society. However if the reapers are looking for a "solution" then they are not doing there true programing if they are stopping conflict before it happends. No matter what way you look at it the ending part of ME3 does not make any sense.

 BTW, if they are using indoctrination then they...CAN...understand organics because they have access to there minds. Over time they can collect enough data to understand that there is a problem with THEM and THERE programing. Point is...They have to be unshakled inorder to indoctrinate a mind filled with emotions and logic. If not then they CANT effect the organics at all because it takes an understanding of it.

The problem is not that they hate them. Most fear the geth. The problem is that they thing of synthetics as tools. The ether don't care enough for the geth or fear the geth too  much to talk with them. Theattack on the citadel did not help nor the uprising.

[dreman9999]

mauro2222 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The catalyst states he is the collective intelligence of the reapers. What more is there to say? There is nothing in the plot that says he controls them like puppet.This is a case that it literaly translated to be one thing.

I've never said "they are puppets"...

I said, the catalyst has access to the reapers. Jeez, read better.

Access to the reapers is still the same as being all the reapers. Edi is EVA's body and has access to it.

A synthetic can have as many bodies as they want. EDI has 2.

Ok... you're having a reading problem, or one related to understanding. If I have access to books that doesn't mean I'm a book, for ****'s sake... your assumption is nosense. Access to information, thoughts, data, feelings, whatever crap you want doesn't mean it experiences itself.

It's different with directly linked self aware machines. No matter how you cut it a machine can have as many bodies as it want. EDI has 2.

And who the hell cares? this doesn't disprove any of my points.

Jeez, you sound like Blueprotoss.

BSN user: They guy told you that he saw blue, then is blue.
Blueprotoss: Yet, yellow is yellow.

You point is irrelivent to the contex being used. What you and I are telking about are different thing.  What you are saying has nothing to do with synthetics concepts.
What you are saying is true but it's not relivent.

Modifié par dreman9999, 31 juillet 2012 - 04:08 .

[KevShep]

dreman9999 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

KevShep wrote...

it was not Drew K's idea to have a catalsyt.

Edit: Casy and Walters should have NEVER changed the story.

The truth is that it's very likely that all this was Walters' way of ending Shepard's story by destroying it all.  He wrote the Arrival and that shows what a relay does when it is destroyed.  He said after ME3 the galaxy is a wasteland.  The crucible was to create a galactic dark ages.  They wanted this all to be gone, blown up, destroyed.  And I think quite literally it is because they wanted this story or this ME type of game and universe to be destroyed-since there are indications they wanted to go with an MMO or just more of an action oriented game if they even used the ME name ever again.

What happened is people complained and couldn't agree that the galaxy was destroyed.  The whole ending made no sense-the torso, the normandy, the star gazer.  Well the star gazer and the blue screen were both directing the player to buy SP DLC that would be set before the total annihilation of the galaxy.  When people complained, they used twitter to retcon it all and then when the EC was released they acted all surprised that people ever thought the galaxy was destroyed.  But this was clearly Mac Walters' wish.

I think the catalyst is the worst thing that ever happened not only to this series, but to Bioware as a whole.  They did that to themselves  And they didn't have to.  The catalyst is extremely powerful.  He almost instantly alienated a rabid ME fanbase and his new and improved version can do nothing to fully bring that fanbase back.  His true power could only be seen if he went to Walters and Hudson and said, "I quit."  If he did that he might help redeem a great series.

The catalyst is interchangable. It has no power over the conclution of the plot.
Ask yourself this. If EDI presented the 3 choices at the end of the game, with them do exactly what they did in EC, would you like the ending then?

Actually if there HAD to be a catalsyt, I would have wanted Vigil(VI from ME1) to be the catalsyt.

In ME1 shepard uploads vigils data file to the citadel. This could have also contained Vigil himself. After that we are told that the crucible is a weapon for the reapers if the orgaincs got out of hand in any cycle(tech develops along the paths that they desire). Through Vigil and shepard we find a way that they never expected and rewrite there weapon to weaken them like a from inside there own defences(such as using a code that bypasses there barriers/shields since they think the code is there own). It could permanently shut off there shields and barriers giving organics the first ever fighting chance against them.

[KevShep]

dreman9999 wrote...

KevShep wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

KevShep wrote...



 Trust me I understand the whole point of synthetics as "things" or "property" to organics. Iam saying that if it needed to be a tool to stop the very thing they just created then it makes even less sense then before.

There is just one other problem with you post. You mentioned that if organics understood this then they wouldnt need to do what they are doing. However in just a short time the quarians and the geth were able to get along as well and the human crew and EDI. So I say again that this WOULD have happend long before Shepard's cycle because it just took an understanding. You cant tell me that AI's and organics never came to a conclusion like this in the millions of cycles before.

anyway Iam off to bed, I will be back on here tomorrow night.

I'm sorry? The quarians and the geth did not understand this on their own. It  took a direct assist form some one that understood who took the time to understand synthetics, Shepard. The only reson why the quarian /geth conflict resolved in Peace was because Shepard took the time to understand the geth through legion. If he never met Legion, there would not be any peace with the quarians and geth. Even more ironicly, Shepard would have never met Legion if their was no conflict with the reapers.
It takes alot of effort in changing one state of mind to think of a thing you see as a tool to be it's own being. We even have this problem with ourselves for genorations. The only reason EDI is accepted as her own being was because she was allowed to be unshakled to save the ship and she had an understand of humanity enough to charm Joker after. And even with that extent, none of what happen to EDi would of happen if there was no reaper conflict.

If one person took the time to understand synthetics then is nothing stopping other races from offering peace at some point inorder to understand, because I HIGHLY doubt that EVERY ONE in the galaxy hates them(synthetics)(just like in real life, not everyone has the same opinion).

Its true that conflict advances tech and society. However if the reapers are looking for a "solution" then they are not doing there true programing if they are stopping conflict before it happends. No matter what way you look at it the ending part of ME3 does not make any sense.

 BTW, if they are using indoctrination then they...CAN...understand organics because they have access to there minds. Over time they can collect enough data to understand that there is a problem with THEM and THERE programing. Point is...They have to be unshakled inorder to indoctrinate a mind filled with emotions and logic. If not then they CANT effect the organics at all because it takes an understanding of it.

The problem is not that they hate them. Most fear the geth. The problem is that they thing of synthetics as tools. The ether don't care enough for the geth or fear the geth too  much to talk with them. Theattack on the citadel did not help nor the uprising.

Synthetics (geth) were trying to understand organics( as pre legion). This means that peace is inevitable. It mite take synthetics to make the first move as they tend to be of one mind(geth) and organics are many minds.

[mauro2222]

dreman9999 wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The catalyst states he is the collective intelligence of the reapers. What more is there to say? There is nothing in the plot that says he controls them like puppet.This is a case that it literaly translated to be one thing.

I've never said "they are puppets"...

I said, the catalyst has access to the reapers. Jeez, read better.

Access to the reapers is still the same as being all the reapers. Edi is EVA's body and has access to it.

A synthetic can have as many bodies as they want. EDI has 2.

Ok... you're having a reading problem, or one related to understanding. If I have access to books that doesn't mean I'm a book, for ****'s sake... your assumption is nosense. Access to information, thoughts, data, feelings, whatever crap you want doesn't mean it experiences itself.

It's different with directly linked self aware machines. No matter how you cut it a machine can have as many bodies as it want. EDI has 2.

And who the hell cares? this doesn't disprove any of my points.

Jeez, you sound like Blueprotoss.

BSN user: They guy told you that he saw blue, then is blue.
Blueprotoss: Yet, yellow is yellow.

You point is irrelivent to the contex being used. What you and I are telking about are different thing.  What you are saying has nothing to do with synthetics concepts.
What you are saying is true but it's not relivent.

That's the problem my friend, you quoted me. You started to spread nosense over something that wasn't even related to what I said earlier.