287 réponses à ce sujet

[Tritium315]

Choice 1) Massive amount of mental gymnastics and convoluted assumptions.

Choice 2) Acceptance of the writing as ****ty.

Either will allow for the endings to make sense, but I'm gonna go with 2.

[elitehunter34]

I really don't see the point of this thread. It's obvious that the Catalyst has no power....and the writers just didn't realize how strange it is that the creator of the Reapers and "is" the Citadel has no meaningful control over it. It also doesn't make sense why the Catalyst presents Destroy and Control in the first place. Yes, you can say that the Crucible "changed it" but that explanation is just incredibly weak. If the writers actually intended that that means that the Crucible is altering an ancient and super-powerful AI that presumably no one in the galaxy ever knew existed since it was created. The Catalyst was only hinted at as the Citadel itself, not as an AI housed on the Citadel. There's no evidence to suggest that anyone knew of its existence.

[Thaa_solon]

Nuff said

The catalyst is the embodiment of ultimate power gone wrong in a stupid way

Goodnight everyone

[mongoosephantom]

If he cant control the Crucible then how come it shuts down if you choose refusal?

Modifié par mongoosephantom, 29 juillet 2012 - 10:43 .

[tyrvas]

maaaze wrote...

The Catalyst has no control over the citadel. (shaperd opening the arms shows this)
He can´t activate the crucible. (he says it himself)

He can´t go against Shaperds decision (I would be forced to be replaced by you... see video)

He has no imidiate direct control over the reapers. (their goals are programmed /indoctrinated and thats it)
Besides this the only thing he maybe capable of is to program the keepers. 

that is all...he is no god...he is just a limted A.I.
think of him as Steven Hawking who does a lot of thinking to solve his problems but requires help from outside to execute them.

In the final moments he has no power. Shaperd has all the power, if he is willing to use it.

thank you for reading.

maaaze

........but.......... I always thought HE-MAN had the power.  

[Ticonderoga117]

maaaze wrote...
This is not the case...first Shaperd opens the arms...then the crucible docks...than shaperds falls onto the elevator.

what makes you think the catalyst controls the elevator?

wouldn´t it makes more sense that the crucible was the reason the elevator took of.

It brought him right in front of the crucible.

Shepard doesn't "fall into" anything. He collapses on the ground, and suddenly an elevator takes him up.

The Catalyst controls the arms and elevator because it cerainly wasn't Shepard doing it, and the Crucible would've done it earlier if that was the case.

The elevator also takes him right into the lap of the Catalyst, who was already walking towards it.

It makes sense (in this context only) because the Catalyst says the Citadel is a part of him. He can control it.

[Mazebook]

Tritium315 wrote...

Choice 1) Massive amount of mental gymnastics and convoluted assumptions.

Choice 2) Acceptance of the writing as ****ty.

Either will allow for the endings to make sense, but I'm gonna go with 2.

Well...I argue that there is a valid interpretation that does make sense...that other interpretations are assuming facts that are contradicting...most of my arguments ether rely on facts or on assumptions that are related to other aspects of the story.

elitehunter34 wrote...

I really don't see the point of this thread. It's obvious that the Catalyst has no power....and the writers just didn't realize how strange it is that the creator of the Reapers and "is" the Citadel has no meaningful control over it. It also doesn't make sense why the Catalyst presents Destroy and Control in the first place. Yes, you can say that the Crucible "changed it" but that explanation is just incredibly weak. If the writers actually intended that that means that the Crucible is altering an ancient and super-powerful AI that presumably no one in the galaxy ever knew existed since it was created. The Catalyst was only hinted at as the Citadel itself, not as an AI housed on the Citadel. There's no evidence to suggest that anyone knew of its existence.

 

I really don't see the point of this thread. It's obvious that the Catalyst has no power....and the writers just didn't realize how strange it is that the creator of the Reapers and "is" the Citadel has no meaningful control over it. 

Yes I agree...sadly they did not hitting you over the head with it...and they incorparted a few causalitys that suggested otherwise...

It also doesn't make sense why the Catalyst presents Destroy and Control in the first place. Yes, you can say that the Crucible "changed it" but that explanation is just incredibly weak 
 If the writers actually intended that that means that the Crucible is altering an ancient and super-powerful AI that presumably no one in the galaxy ever knew existed since it was created. The Catalyst was only hinted at as the Citadel itself, not as an AI housed on the Citadel. There's no evidence to suggest that anyone knew of its existence. 

Well you know why i think this is not the case. he is not superpowerful and these are not his choices. 

Modifié par maaaze, 29 juillet 2012 - 10:39 .

[jstme]

Here are few phrases by our beloved reaper king:
"Citadel is part of me"
"I control the reapers,they are my solution"
"we harvest advanced civilisation..."
"...because we allready contorled him (on TIM)"
"i embody the collective intelligence of all reapers"
"they became the first true reaper. They did not approve but it was the only solution"
"we harvest your bodies, your knowledge....."
Here are few actions clearly done by reaper king:
Elevator to heaven
Crucible turning off in "so be it" ending.
Powerless. Yes, indeed.

[mongoosephantom]

jstme wrote...

Here are few phrases by our beloved reaper king:
"Citadel is part of me"
"I control the reapers,they are my solution"
"we harvest advanced civilisation..."
"...because we allready contorled him (on TIM)"
"i embody the collective intelligence of all reapers"
"they became the first true reaper. They did not approve but it was the only solution"
"we harvest your bodies, your knowledge....."
Here are few actions clearly done by reaper king:
Elevator to heaven
Crucible turning off in "so be it" ending.
Powerless. Yes, indeed.

My point exactly. If he couldnt make the new "possibilities" happen then how come he turned off the Crucible in refusal?

[Mazebook]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

maaaze wrote...
This is not the case...first Shaperd opens the arms...then the crucible docks...than shaperds falls onto the elevator.

what makes you think the catalyst controls the elevator?

wouldn´t it makes more sense that the crucible was the reason the elevator took of.

It brought him right in front of the crucible.

Shepard doesn't "fall into" anything. He collapses on the ground, and suddenly an elevator takes him up.

The Catalyst controls the arms and elevator because it cerainly wasn't Shepard doing it, and the Crucible would've done it earlier if that was the case.

The elevator also takes him right into the lap of the Catalyst, who was already walking towards it.

It makes sense (in this context only) because the Catalyst says the Citadel is a part of him. He can control it.

Yes and the ground turned out to be an elevator.

Elevators activating through weight are quite common and there was a time delay for dramatic effect.

It makes sense (in this context only) because the Catalyst says the Citadel is a part of him. He can control it.

but why bring him up? If him standing here proves that his solution won´t work anymore.

The Catalyst walking up to him shows that he is aware of what is happening on the citadel. but it does not show us that he has control over it. Shaperd being able to open the arms even shows us that he has no control over it.

Modifié par maaaze, 29 juillet 2012 - 10:52 .

[Mazebook]

mongoosephantom wrote...

jstme wrote...

Here are few phrases by our beloved reaper king:
"Citadel is part of me"
"I control the reapers,they are my solution"
"we harvest advanced civilisation..."
"...because we allready contorled him (on TIM)"
"i embody the collective intelligence of all reapers"
"they became the first true reaper. They did not approve but it was the only solution"
"we harvest your bodies, your knowledge....."
Here are few actions clearly done by reaper king:
Elevator to heaven
Crucible turning off in "so be it" ending.
Powerless. Yes, indeed.

My point exactly. If he couldnt make the new "possibilities" happen then how come he turned off the Crucible in refusal?

I think he did not...it was most likly being damaged by shaperd not taking action.
The reapers caused it to not function anymore.
Shooting the Catalyst is interpreted by the game that he will not take action.

Modifié par maaaze, 29 juillet 2012 - 10:51 .

[tyrvas]

mongoosephantom wrote...

If he cant control the Crucible then how come it shuts down if you choose refusal?

None of the options the Crucible offers have been used.
Refusal = flawed solution continues as it always has.

edit, in other words, a catalyst triggers change. the catalyst was not used.

Modifié par tyrvas, 29 juillet 2012 - 10:56 .

[Omega2079]

maaaze wrote...

Omega2079 wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Omega2079 wrote...

If the Catalyst has no power (a direct or even indirect way to force physical action), how was the first Reaper created?

It states that they (beings turn into the Reaper) didn't approve. If you don't approve, you don't accept. If you don't accept, it means you're forced.

I think he had control over the keepers. and the keepers had control over the citadel.

But the Protheans changed the signal. so now he has no control.

They keepers wiped out an entire race? A race capable of the resource managment needed to build the first reaper?

The keepers always had control over the citadel...they maintained it...so they had control.

So how could the singnal be changed?

And this is a whole race they wiped out too.

[Tritium315]

maaaze wrote...

Tritium315 wrote...

Choice 1) Massive amount of mental gymnastics and convoluted assumptions.

Choice 2) Acceptance of the writing as ****ty.

Either will allow for the endings to make sense, but I'm gonna go with 2.

Well...I argue that there is a valid interpretation that does make sense...that other interpretations are assuming facts that are contradicting...most of my arguments ether rely on facts or on assumptions that are related to other aspects of the story.

All of your arguments rely on convoluted assumptions to allow for the square peg of ME3's plot to fit into the round hole of the ME universe's lore. Do your assumptions allow for the endings to be logically sound? Yes, but then the problem arrises that the plot makes zero ****ing sense if you accept those assumptions. Pretty much every thread/post you've ever written has been you spouting your bull**** as if it was fact and claiming anyone who disagrees is not as intellectually gifted as you are. Sorry to break it to you, but you're not smarter than everyone. Your problem is you think that for once in your life you're being clever and "getting" something that apparently has gone over everyone else's heads, but it's really just the opposite.

Or you're just trolling; I'm still undecided about that in regards to you.

[mongoosephantom]

maaaze wrote...

mongoosephantom wrote...

jstme wrote...

Here are few phrases by our beloved reaper king:
"Citadel is part of me"
"I control the reapers,they are my solution"
"we harvest advanced civilisation..."
"...because we allready contorled him (on TIM)"
"i embody the collective intelligence of all reapers"
"they became the first true reaper. They did not approve but it was the only solution"
"we harvest your bodies, your knowledge....."
Here are few actions clearly done by reaper king:
Elevator to heaven
Crucible turning off in "so be it" ending.
Powerless. Yes, indeed.

My point exactly. If he couldnt make the new "possibilities" happen then how come he turned off the Crucible in refusal?

I think he did not...it was most likly being damaged by shaperd not taking action.
The reapers caused it to not function anymore.
Shooting the Catalyst is interpreted by the game that he will not take action.

The Catalyst controls the Reapers how would they damage the Crucible without him commanding them?

Modifié par mongoosephantom, 29 juillet 2012 - 11:01 .

[Mazebook]

Tritium315 wrote...

maaaze wrote...

Tritium315 wrote...

Choice 1) Massive amount of mental gymnastics and convoluted assumptions.

Choice 2) Acceptance of the writing as ****ty.

Either will allow for the endings to make sense, but I'm gonna go with 2.

Well...I argue that there is a valid interpretation that does make sense...that other interpretations are assuming facts that are contradicting...most of my arguments ether rely on facts or on assumptions that are related to other aspects of the story.

All of your arguments rely on convoluted assumptions to allow for the square peg of ME3's plot to fit into the round hole of the ME universe's lore. Do your assumptions allow for the endings to be logically sound? Yes, but then the problem arrises that the plot makes zero ****ing sense if you accept those assumptions. Pretty much every thread/post you've ever written has been you spouting your bull**** as if it was fact and claiming anyone who disagrees is not as intellectually gifted as you are. Sorry to break it to you, but you're not smarter than everyone. Your problem is you think that for once in your life you're being clever and "getting" something that apparently has gone over everyone else's heads, but it's really just the opposite.

Or you're just trolling; I'm still undecided about that in regards to you.

Okay.
If you have nothing to say related to the thread. please do not post in it.
or bring up arguements that go against this interpretation.

[Mazebook]

mongoosephantom wrote...

maaaze wrote...

mongoosephantom wrote...

jstme wrote...

Here are few phrases by our beloved reaper king:
"Citadel is part of me"
"I control the reapers,they are my solution"
"we harvest advanced civilisation..."
"...because we allready contorled him (on TIM)"
"i embody the collective intelligence of all reapers"
"they became the first true reaper. They did not approve but it was the only solution"
"we harvest your bodies, your knowledge....."
Here are few actions clearly done by reaper king:
Elevator to heaven
Crucible turning off in "so be it" ending.
Powerless. Yes, indeed.

My point exactly. If he couldnt make the new "possibilities" happen then how come he turned off the Crucible in refusal?

I think he did not...it was most likly being damaged by shaperd not taking action.
The reapers caused it to not function anymore.
Shooting the Catalyst is interpreted by the game that he will not take action.

The Catalyst controls the Reapers how would they damage the Crucible without him commanding them?

well there was a fleet fighting to prevent them...but they could only hold them back for a certain time.

I personally think that time was compressed in this scene to make up for a more dramatic affect.

Or the Catalyst ordered the Reapers not to attack the crucible directly at first as long he is talking to shaperd.

both things are possible.

[mongoosephantom]

maaaze wrote...

mongoosephantom wrote...

maaaze wrote...

mongoosephantom wrote...

jstme wrote...

Here are few phrases by our beloved reaper king:
"Citadel is part of me"
"I control the reapers,they are my solution"
"we harvest advanced civilisation..."
"...because we allready contorled him (on TIM)"
"i embody the collective intelligence of all reapers"
"they became the first true reaper. They did not approve but it was the only solution"
"we harvest your bodies, your knowledge....."
Here are few actions clearly done by reaper king:
Elevator to heaven
Crucible turning off in "so be it" ending.
Powerless. Yes, indeed.

My point exactly. If he couldnt make the new "possibilities" happen then how come he turned off the Crucible in refusal?

I think he did not...it was most likly being damaged by shaperd not taking action.
The reapers caused it to not function anymore.
Shooting the Catalyst is interpreted by the game that he will not take action.

The Catalyst controls the Reapers how would they damage the Crucible without him commanding them?

well there was a fleet fighting to prevent them...but they could only hold them back for a certain time.

I personally think that time was compressed in this scene to make up for a more dramatic affect.

Or the Catalyst ordered the Reapers not to attack the crucible directly at first as long he is talking to shaperd.

both things are possible.

However you want to put it we are just speculating here. An answer to a question creates more questions. That's why the Catalyst's logic makes no sense.

[Ticonderoga117]

maaaze wrote...
Yes and the ground turned out to be an elevator.

Elevators activating through weight are quite common and there was a time delay for dramatic effect.

It makes sense (in this context only) because the Catalyst says the Citadel is a part of him. He can control it.

but why bring him up? If him standing here proves that his solution won´t work anymore.

The Catalyst walking up to him shows that he is aware of what is happening on the citadel. but it does not show us that he has control over it. Shaperd being able to open the arms even shows us that he has no control over it.

Elevators that activate through a pressure switch... whut?
I've been on elevators that you activate yourself, or that you operate manually through a lever. Never, ever, a pressure switch.

Super weapon designs have no use from "dramatic effect" so you can't use that.

The Catalyst controls the Citadel, you can't dance around this.

[Mazebook]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

maaaze wrote...
Yes and the ground turned out to be an elevator.

Elevators activating through weight are quite common and there was a time delay for dramatic effect.

It makes sense (in this context only) because the Catalyst says the Citadel is a part of him. He can control it.

but why bring him up? If him standing here proves that his solution won´t work anymore.

The Catalyst walking up to him shows that he is aware of what is happening on the citadel. but it does not show us that he has control over it. Shaperd being able to open the arms even shows us that he has no control over it.

Elevators that activate through a pressure switch... whut?
I've been on elevators that you activate yourself, or that you operate manually through a lever. Never, ever, a pressure switch.

Super weapon designs have no use from "dramatic effect" so you can't use that.

The Catalyst controls the Citadel, you can't dance around this.

Yes, there are elevators that are activated via pressure or other means...like stairways.

Or Elevators that only move when somebody is in them.(for exemple to prevent holding on each floor)

It makes sense that the elevator only goes up if some is standing on it. 

The Game has a use for dramatic effect...there are many things in ME that are only there for dramatic effect.
You have to take that into consideration if you talk about what is shown in the Game.

In movies a car crash is often shown happening multiple times. that does not mean the cars crashed multiple time into each other. It is used that way to heightend the dramatic effect of the car crash.

I think Shaperd collapsing and the lift taking off shortly after that is in the same line as that.

Modifié par maaaze, 30 juillet 2012 - 12:04 .

[AresKeith]

maaaze wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

maaaze wrote...
Yes and the ground turned out to be an elevator.

Elevators activating through weight are quite common and there was a time delay for dramatic effect.

It makes sense (in this context only) because the Catalyst says the Citadel is a part of him. He can control it.

but why bring him up? If him standing here proves that his solution won´t work anymore.

The Catalyst walking up to him shows that he is aware of what is happening on the citadel. but it does not show us that he has control over it. Shaperd being able to open the arms even shows us that he has no control over it.

Elevators that activate through a pressure switch... whut?
I've been on elevators that you activate yourself, or that you operate manually through a lever. Never, ever, a pressure switch.

Super weapon designs have no use from "dramatic effect" so you can't use that.

The Catalyst controls the Citadel, you can't dance around this.

Yes, there are elevators that are activated via pressure or other means...like stairways.

Or Elevators that only move when somebody is in them.(for exemple to prevent holding on each floor)

It makes sense that the elevator only goes up if some is standing on it. 

The Game has a use for dramatic effect...there are many things in ME that are only there for dramatic effect.
You have to take that into consideration if you talk about what is shown in the Game.

In movies a car crash is often shown happening multiple times. that does not mean the cars crashed multiple time into each other. It is used that way to heightend the dramatic effect of the car crash.

I think Shaperd collapsing and the lift taking off shortly after that is in the same line as that.

I'm pretty sure I saw Anderson standing in that same spot

[Ticonderoga117]

maaaze wrote...
Yes, there are elevators that are activated via pressure or other means...like stairways.

Or Elevators that only move when somebody is in them.(for exemple to prevent holding on each floor)

It makes sense that the elevator only goes up if some is standing on it. 

The Game has a use for dramatic effect...there are many things in ME that are only there for dramatic effect.
You have to take that into consideration if you talk about what is shown in the Game.

In movies a car crash is often shown happening multiple times. that does not mean the cars crashed multiple time into each other. It is used that way to heightend the dramatic effect of the car crash.

I think Shaperd collapsing and the lift taking off shortly after that is in the same line as that.

Shepard, Anderson, and TIM stand in roughly the same area, and none of them get lifted up.

Sure, there are times and places for it. This was not "dramatic effect". More of a "WTF" effect.

Car-crashes filmed like that generally do the repeats from different angles. This is no in the same line.

[Jadebaby]

maaaze wrote...

Isichar wrote...

OP likes his headcanon.

I have evidence for this. 


the fact that Shaperd was able to open the arms.

the fact that the reapers are independent from another (ranoch reaper :"harbinger told me of you")

The fact that he can´t make the choices happen.

I like to hear your evidence that this is not the case.

The crucible changed me.

The Catalyst was completely dormant until the crucible docked and that little light sparked. This explains ME1.

And somwhat invalidates this theory.

However, everything is speculation at the end of the day. Nothing is proof of anything until BioWare decide one way or the other. From the EC, it doesn't look like they care too much.

Modifié par Jade8aby88, 30 juillet 2012 - 12:17 .

[Mazebook]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

maaaze wrote...
Yes, there are elevators that are activated via pressure or other means...like stairways.

Or Elevators that only move when somebody is in them.(for exemple to prevent holding on each floor)

It makes sense that the elevator only goes up if some is standing on it. 

The Game has a use for dramatic effect...there are many things in ME that are only there for dramatic effect.
You have to take that into consideration if you talk about what is shown in the Game.

In movies a car crash is often shown happening multiple times. that does not mean the cars crashed multiple time into each other. It is used that way to heightend the dramatic effect of the car crash.

I think Shaperd collapsing and the lift taking off shortly after that is in the same line as that.

Shepard, Anderson, and TIM stand in roughly the same area, and none of them get lifted up.

All of them before they opened the arms and the crucible docks.

[3DandBeyond]

OP believes the kid does not lie. If he is not lying:

Crucible and Citadel (choices) target reapers as well as other lifeforms depending on the choice.
Creators of kid became first reaper so reapers were unknown before the kid created one.
Creators of kid could not have created crucible plans and the choices because they would have had to do that before becoming a reaper. If they created the plans and choices after becoming a reaper the kid would have known about the choices and since he controls the reapers he would not let them do things he didn't want them to do.
Whoever made the crucible plans would have had to know about the kid since the crucible changes him-it might change the citadel and change him, but it must know about him in order to affect him.
The only ones that know about the kid are the reapers, the kid, his creators/a reaper, and Shepard. The only one who could have made the choices/crucible is the kid.
Presumably this cycle has gotten close to destroying the reapers and Shepard is the first to get to the kid, therefore meaning he can't rely on his solutions to work anymore and the crucible getting together with the citadel has changed him.
Since the reapers were never a permanent solution and the new solutions aren't permanent either and they solve his problem each in their own way, they are his solutions. He needed to find new solutions and voila, there they are.

If the reapers are indoctrinated, and the kid is nothing more than an AI (though he indicates he is far more than that), then who indoctrinated the reapers? Did they do it to themselves?

In order for any of the OP to make sense the kid has to be wrong about everything (or lying).
Shepard is able to open the arms because the kid wants the crucible to dock so the choices can work because the crucible powers them.

The kid can't make the choices happen because he needs Shepard to act on them.  He needs Shepard's organic components just as he needed his creators to make a reaper and needs organics to make new reapers.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 30 juillet 2012 - 12:53 .